Irish stick fighting

Amhran Nua

What are the thoughts on the authenticity or otherwise of Irish stick fighting?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REvuqH8cRJc

This is from the Doyle family over in Canada, passed down from father to son it seems, surprisingly graceful and with some interesting moves I haven't seen anywhere else.

Dave Joyce

I'll be polite and won't actually give you my views, but

some interesting moves I haven't seen anywhere else.

you can't be serious with that comment or else you haven't ever seen the most BASIC Filipino system.

Amhran Nua

Dave Joyce wrote: »

but you can't be serious with that comment or else you haven't ever seen the most BASIC Filipino system.

More so than you would imagine, although my arnisador would give you a different story. Can we keep it realistic please whether or not some people might want to acknowledge that, is it possible some of that survived among the Newfies? I'll answer myself here, yes is it possible, is this it though.


Shillelagh Stick-Fighting (Bataireacht Sail-Éílle)

Methods of Shillelagh fighting have evolved over a period of thousands of years, from the spear, staff, axe and sword fighting of the Irish. There is some evidence which suggests that the use of Irish stick weapons may have evolved in a progression from a reliance on long spears and wattles, to shorter spears and wattles, to the shillelagh, alpeen, blackthorn (walking-stick) and short cudgel. By the 19th century Irish Shillelagh-fighting had evolved into a practice which involved the use of three basic types of weapons, sticks which were long, medium or short in length. Within these categories there are further divisions based on whether or not the stick has a knob or iron ferrules at the end(s).

There were numerous regional and personal variations of these weapons; as a result a precise classification of every type of Irish stick weapon would be presumptious. However there are more precise names for certain sticks, and I do use these. In my upcoming book Shillelagh: The Story Of The Irish Stick, I discuss in great detail how by the 19th century, the term Shillelagh had come to be used in a general way to describe the many different kinds of stick weapons used in Ireland. I continue this tradition in writing and in conversation, and I tentatively classify the basic weapons of Shillelagh-fighting as being:
Length Irish Name(s) English Name(s)
6-9'
sleá, ga spear
píce pike
maide ceathrún quaterstaff
stafóg ceathrún quaterstaff
cleith wattle

4-5'
sail éille shillelagh
bata siúil éille shillelagh
ailpín alpeen
bata mór/tríú great/third stick

3'
bata pionsa "backsword" cudgel or "single-stick"
bata siúil walking stick
maide láimhe walking stick
bata mór/tríú great/third stick

3'
camán hurley stick

2'
smíste cudgel
crann bagair cudgel

1-2'
smachtín buta luaidhe "loaded butt"

Styles of Bataireacht (Cineálacha Bataireacht)

These sticks were used in various ways – Irish stick-fighting styles were more methods of combat than strictly stylized and adhered to "martial arts" – but certain patterns of common styles did exist. Some evidence suggests that there may have been many types of basic stick (fighting) games or training activities used by the Irish. Early references mention the Fiancluichi, a series of games for aristocratic (and hence warrior) youths, and these may have included various forms of martial arts and stick-fighting. We know for example, that the Fiancluichi seem to have included:

Camánacht - a type of hurling using what looked like walking-sticks, similar to todays shinty;

Iomainacht - similar to modern day hurling.

A type of play used in both of these styles was called Scuabín or "Scoobeen", and involved whole parishes and villages in cross-country matches, where the first goal won the game. These Scuabín matches survived into the modern era and seem to have been an ancient Gaelic Celtic form of the Norman "melée", used to simulate combat. If Hurling and Scuabín once comprised part of the Fiancluichi, it may be that the Fiancluichi referred to an actual curriculum of martial arts training. Other stick-fighting arts which might have fallen under the category of the Fiancluichi, may have been:

Sleádóireacht (or spear play), Lansaíocht (or lance-fighting), (also Ropaireacht) - iron-tipped lances, and javelins which could also be used like thrusting or slashing swords. These would all fall under the term "Ropaireacht" or stabbing violence;

Maide Ceathrún or quarterstaff play - iron-shod (long) staff fighting;

Cleathadh or wattling - shorter than quarterstaff and not shod with iron;

Cleith aílpín or alpeen play - shorter than quarterstaff, sometimes using a (four foot long) stick with a knob at one end.

Bata Mór/Bata Tríú or great stick/third stick - using a 3 to 4 foot stick with both hands, dividing the stick roughly into thirds.

Sail-Éille or shillelagh play - using a four foot long stick shod with iron at both ends.

Claíomhóireacht or old Irish swordsmanship - characterized by the "cut and thrust" of the Irish Broadsword, which was later referred to as Bataireacht or Bata(ireacht) Pionsa, or backsword/singlestick.

Probably separate from (and in some cases definitely later than) the original Fiancluichi, were other Irish stick-fighting arts, including:

Trodaireacht Dó Bata (lit. "two-stick fighting") or cudgel play - possibly sword and dagger play from the 16th century, although there are probably native Irish styles prior to this. Two sticks were used, one 3 feet long and the second 14 inches long; in the pan-European style, both sticks had basket hilts;

Bataireacht/Bata(ireacht) Pionsa or backsword/singlestick - using the 3 foot cudgel from the Troid Dó Bata, by itself;

Bata(ireacht) Siúil Éille/Maide Láimhe or walking-stick - using a 3 foot walking-stick without a basket-hilt, with or without a knob;

Smísteoireacht or cudgelling - using a short bludgeon or truncheon.

Pionsóireacht or later Irish swordsmanship - characterized by the "thrust" of the Rapier, later Small Sword, Foil and Epeé.

It is hard to say exactly how or when these arts evolved into their more modern form, but certainly by the 19th century, the arts of Irish stick-fencing or Bataireacht, can be divided into seven main categories:

Maide Ceathrú or quarterstaff, which divides the stick into quarters for gripping;

Cleathadh or two-handed wattle fighting, gripping the stick like a sword;

Bata Mór/Bata Tríú or two-handed wattle fighting, which divides the stick into thirds for gripping;

Shillelagh or one-handed wattle fighting with the Bata Mór;

Trodaireacht Dó Bata or two-stick fighting;

Bata Pionsa or single-stick play;

Smísteoireacht or truncheon fighting.

Quillo

Western arts like this typically fall into two categories:

1. Those with lineage back into medieval or renaissance times - an example would be classical fencing which continued in support of the duel long after the emergence of firearms

2. Those that were abandoned and are now being recreated based on historical documents such as the use of dussack based on the writings of Meyer (combined with modern research in to the weapons and tactics of the period in question).

Recreations can never exactly capture an original art but they can approximate what was involved - are they genuine ? Depends what you mean by genuine really. If what someone is doing is an effect system of defense then that system may be said to be a genuine system of defense. Can a recreated system be genuinely called that system, probably not, in my opinion anyway.

It seems likely that Irish Stick fighting falls into the latter category ?

It is worth mentioning that the peasantry of medieval times and earlier had little or no formal martial training and it is unlikely that the use of spear or stick would have been codified in any detailed way to the point where it could be called be called a martial art. Skills would have been developed in prize fighting at local fairs or learned the hard way, on-the-job as it were, in battle.

cowzerp

we used to fight with sticks when i was a kid so it definitely goes back 25 years or more, but if that music was on we'd drop our sticks and all do a jig instead-Fun times!

Amhran Nua

Quillo wrote: »

Can a recreated system be genuinely called that system, probably not, in my opinion anyway.

It seems likely that Irish Stick fighting falls into the latter category ?

What makes this interesting is that the Doyles claim direct lineage.

The art of stick fighting was passed down from generation to generation, each father passing his techniques and nuances of style on to his sons. In this way, Rince an Bhata Uisce Bheatha was passed down through numerous Doyles to one Edward Doyle who emigrated to the island of Newfoundland around the year 1867.

Newfoundland, was pretty much an isolated island with a large Irish population so many of the old Irish customs and traditions were not lost as the 20th century progressed. Edward passed on the Doyle stick fighting art to his son Christopher, who in turn passed the art down to one of his sons, Gregory Doyle who in turn taught Glen, his son. Glen Doyle began learning Rince an Bhata Uisce Bheatha at the age of seven. Glen, now residing in Toronto, is the source for this web site.

Theres more to this than meets the eye I feel. He says himself he's incorporated some of the footwork from eastern arts, and the guard position looks like its borrowed from straight boxing, which is unusual in and of itself, but to wave the "plastic paddy" flag without a deeper look is a bit unfair.

Amhran Nua

Quillo wrote: »

It is worth mentioning that the peasantry of medieval times and earlier had little or no formal martial training and it is unlikely that the use of spear or stick would have been codified in any detailed way to the point where it could be called be called a martial art. Skills would have been developed in prize fighting at local fairs or learned the hard way, on-the-job as it were, in battle.

Also noteworthy is that the Irish peasantry were somewhat different to your typical European serfs:

While the stick was carried by Irishmen just about everywhere they went, it was at the fair, wake or pattern (Saint's feast day), that it was most needed. Various groups or factions were always present at most social gatherings and faction fighting was very common until the famines of the 1840s. Most often the factions were members of certain families or of political groups. Sometimes the fights would consist of hundreds of men - and yes, the womenfolk joined in too. They didn't use a bata, but they could make a good account of themselves by wielding a stocking filled with stones.

Some fighters specialized in the use of two sticks. This was called the Troid de bata or two-stick fight. The stick held in the off hand was used as a shield. After the 1840's the factions fights became fewer and farther between; the last recorded one was held at a fair in Co.Tipperary, in 1887.

Fights with the bata were not always of the faction variety; some were sporting events, while others were provoked just for fun. One tradition at a fair was for a man to drag his coat on the ground behind him and throw down the challenge, "Who'll tread on the tail of my coat?", or to ask a crowd, "Who'll say black is the white of my eye?" Often these were friendly, if somewhat rough contests.

The bata was held somewhat towards the lower middle of the stick and was snapped out with the wrist rather than swung like a cudgel. A simple art in terms of technique, it still took years of practice to master. In his 1790 book, Personal Sketches of His Own Times, Sir John Barrington wrote that the stickfights were exhibitions of skill...."like sword exercises and did not appear savage. Nobody was disfigured thereby, or rendered fit for a doctor. I never saw a bone broken or a dangerous contusion from what was called 'whacks' of a shillelagh (which was never too heavy)."

Actually I take it back about borrowing the guard from boxing, looks like the Doyles have more support for their claims than I thought.

scuttery1

http://www.waterfordmartialarts.com
As far as I'm aware the guys in Waterford Martial Arts have had Glen Doyle over for seminars a couple of times, there's some pics of them training with him in their gallery. Why not drop them a line?

Amhran Nua

I've actually spoken to Glen himself in my investigation of this fascinating potentially lost fragment of Irish culture, this thread is to get a bit of feedback from the experienced members of this forum about it. He said:

I have been facing this stuff since my first mention of my family's style
in a 1995 Inside Kung Fu Magazine interview, before my father broke down
and gave me permission to teach outside the family just before he passed
away in 1998. I used to argue with people but found it just fuels them to
keep trashing something I hold sacred, and they seem to get a kick out of
it, so I just teach those who want to learn so the style survives and
lives on, that's why I don't charge any money for the study of the style,
it would cheapen my father's memory.

Most of the detractors are either re-creationists who don't acknowledge
'Oral Tradition' and only believe something if it is in a book, others who
just seem to be pissed off that I have something their family doesn't, and
others in Ireland who just call me a "plastic paddy" - I don't really
know, because there's a gentleman in Ireland who also teaches a family
style and no one seems to have a problem with him... maybe I'm just lucky.


Thank you for you efforts, but if you get involved in that argument,
you'll spend your days going around and around and around, until you get
dizzy *lol*.

I teach to honour the memory of my father, and that's the only thing I
care about. It allows me to remember him, to stay close to that memory,
and to share with those willing to learn some of the great life lessons he
passed onto me, while giving me something unique to my heritage.

If people feel better trashing it, there's not much I can do unless I'm in
the same room as they are, and that's not going to happen on the internet.

Thank you for contacting me, and I hope you can appreciate my response.

Sincerely,

Glen
www.fightingfaction.com

Quillo

Single individual lineages, father-to-son, master-to-student etc, while possible, should always be looked at closely as there is no independent verification available for such claims. No formal school with records. No contemporary accounts.

Look, for example, at Kaze Arashi Ryu Aiki Jujutsu . An apparently complex and structured art claiming an authentic lineage back centuries..... all passed down to the West through one living individual, Henri Robert Vilaire.

Now, search for Kaze Arashi Ryu on eBudo, aikiweb etc. Pretty much every aspect of the system has been brought into doubt even though thousands have believed it genuine for decades (myself included !).

Now, some of the KAR syllabus is genuine Jujutsu (Sensei Vilaire having come from a Jujutsu background) but the lineage, the weapons work, even the Kanji used for the name have all been discredited to such an extent that most of the senior people have left the organisation, including the well known Kirby Watson, regular contributor to Traditional Karate.

Amhran Nua

It is, however, possible, even likely given the geographical and historical context. The passage quoted above even mentions an element of the style which is replicated in the Doyles' training, the wrist flick. What documentation would you view as satisfactory? I have a tremendous interest in Irish culture and tracking down the fragmentary bits of it that may have been scattered throughout the world by the diaspora down the centuries.

Quillo

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It is, however, possible,

Absolutely. And I've said as much above.....
Merely suggesting caution in accepting claims made in relation to lineage

Dyr

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It is, however, possible, even likely given the geographical and historical context. The passage quoted above even mentions an element of the style which is replicated in the Doyles' training, the wrist flick. What documentation would you view as satisfactory? I have a tremendous interest in Irish culture and tracking down the fragmentary bits of it that may have been scattered throughout the world by the diaspora down the centuries.

Lots of things are possible, and even probable but it doesn't make it so. This chap Doyle was originally referring to his system as rince uisce beatha bata or some such. Head over to irish forum on boards and ask them about that phrase (or even the irish stuff from John W Hurley that you posted, ) it sounds like pidgin irish to me. I see he's now modified the name to something more grammatically feasible.

Is it possible:yes
Is it probable: I doubt it
Is it in it any way verifiable: Nope

I'm not willing to take someones word on something like this when so many of their previous statements ring alarm bells for me. And the same goes the irish fella who just unveiled his ancient family system and taught to an american silat guy.

Amhran Nua

Bambi wrote: »

This chap Doyle was originally referring to his system as rince uisce beatha bata or some such. Head over to irish forum on boards and ask them about that phrase (or even the irish stuff from John W Hurley that you posted, ) it sounds like pidgin irish to me.

It means the whisky stick dance.

The Doyle clan had already practised its own brand of stick-fighting in Ireland. Although the men historically had made a living as hired muscle, their reputation for artful violence did not become cemented until the advent of uisce beatha bata rince in the mid-19th century. Pronounced ISH-key BA-ha BA-tha RINK-eh, the Gaelic name translates as "whisky stick dancing." Whisky refers to the distilleries that the founder of the system was paid to guard, while dancing was a euphemism that gave participants the freedom to speak openly about stick-fighting without attracting undue attention.

Dyr

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It means the whisky stick dance.

Like I said,ask the nice people on the irish forum here what they make of the term "uisce beatha bata rince"

If you want to believe it knock yerself out, I spent most of my school days in all irish schools, and while my irish is rusty, that phrase sounds made up to me: whiskey stick dance. It's like dog ball run in english

Dave Joyce

Amhrán Nua, an bhfuil Gaelige agat féin, más é do thoil é? Mar tá Gaelige maith ag Bambi agus tá a fhios aige cad a bhfuil sé ag rá.

silat liam

Bambi wrote: »

I'm not willing to take someones word on something like this when so many of their previous statements ring alarm bells for me. And the same goes the irish fella who just unveiled his ancient family system and taught to an american silat guy.

That American Silat guy your talking about used to be my teacher in silat, and I left him because of these mad claims and others. He suddenly out of know where start making claims he's a "Maister Munteoir (Master Teacher)" a Self Appointed Grade in Shillileagh and that he learnt the art from a guy in the North, who was also a student of mines at the time in Silat. At no time at all did he ever do any direct learning from the guy in the North and from what they told me personally they disown themselves from the wild claims my teacher was making. They also told me that the only knowledge they give my teacher was a 20 minute dvd.

To add insult to both silat and I'm sure Irish fighting arts there was a video drifting around on youtube of him demo Shillileagh and it was exactly the same form, bar for 2 movements of Trumbu, a Indonesian staff form that he had taught to us two years earlier at a seminar in Dublin. So Indonesian Silat and Shillileagh are the same art??? I don't think so. Talking to a few of the Americans silat students who also have left him, they were told by him they should learn shillileagh as it was a great way to make money as they were many Irish Americans who could be fool by it and would hand over money to learn it.

Amhran Nua

Bambi wrote: »

Like I said,ask the nice people on the irish forum here what they make of the term "uisce beatha bata rince"

If you want to believe it knock yerself out, I spent most of my school days in all irish schools, and while my irish is rusty, that phrase sounds made up to me: whiskey stick dance. It's like dog ball run in english

Dog ball run might well be perfectly valid if you are talking about the activity of running a dog with a ball though. Seems a bit thin there bambi.

Dave Joyce wrote: »

Amhrán Nua, an bhfuil Gaelige agat féin, más é do thoil é? Mar tá Gaelige maith ag Bambi agus tá a fhios aige cad a bhfuil sé ag rá.

Píosín beag a chara, less than I might like, courtesy of our wonderful Gaeilge education system.

If you examine the video closely there you can see some interesting things. An Irish blackthorn stick weighs over a kilo - you don't snap that out with just your wrists. Its two halves are longer than most mens arms as well, so you can't put your hands too close together, rabbit punch style.

What they're doing is pushing it out with the off hand while flicking with the other. I can see why he'd leap forward forward when possible as well, to get momentum behind the head of the stick. Its a combination of the speed of the wrist and the power of weight from the looks of it.

hakunapesa

Hi,

I'm sure this thread is long dead, but if you guys are still interested in Stick fighting, I teach it in Galway, Dublin, Donegal and Westmeath.

Give me a shout if your interested i can send you on some videos of what we do.

Blackthorn Fight School

Hi Hakunapesa

What style do you teach and where? I certified under the Doyle style a number of years ago but have since left the organisation. I was completely unaware of anyone else in the country teaching it and have been in contact with many I would be very interested to learn more.

hakunapesa

Hi,

I've heard of your group I was going to drop you a line. I have a Salle in Letterkenny and Ballinasloe but next Month I'm opening up in Galway and Dublin City.

I think you may know a friend of mine Mike Prendagast? Were actually hosting a seminar together in Dublin on the 6th & 7th of Feb. Cane being taught by Chris Chatfield. It would be great to meet up there.

If you send me a PM i can send you videos of what we do :-)

You guys are in Dublin?

Blackthorn Fight School

Hi,

Yes we are based in Dublin we were training out near Dundrum but things have slowed a little of late we are also a Dog Brothers training group so try to test what we teach at all times. I am guessing your with the 1595 guys?

So 16th c techniques applied to the cane rather than any particular style of Irish stick?

Have seen some of the videos some cool stuff will drop you a PM now will try get out to the seminar but have a few friends fighting on the saturday so might be busy but will see.