Can you preform well in triathlons if you dont have a backround in swimming ?

Seres

my backround is running but its the swim that always kills me in triathlons , i have found that giving the bike alot of time can significantly improve your times , however the same does not apply for swimming IMO , what is the solution? expensive coaching sessions ? long sessions in the pool ? or is the swimming a strong limiting factor for people who dont have a backround in swimming ?

bagus

Being the shortest leg of a tri the difference between a good swim and a very good swim is not a huge amount of time (relative to the bike and run).

I've taught both adults and kids to swim.
Kids are naturals, but you are too late for that.
Adults, can become good swimmers too. It's just a slower process, so it takes a bit of dedication.

Get a lesson or two. Go away and practice on your own for a few weeks.
Get another few lessons. Again, go away and practice on your own for a few weeks.

Watch how good swimmers move in the water. Watch from above and below. That won't cost you anything. Try and copy their stroke.

Watch how bad swimmers move in the water. Side to side head movements, head up, sunken legs, strange kick patterns, bent knees, short frantic stokes, tense etc... Eliminate these things from you stroke.

For me the hardest part about teaching adults was that their old habits died hard. The new techniques would make them tire fast and they'd revert to the old bad stroke. Learn the proper stroke, and stick with it. If you're tired, take a break, but don't revert to your old stroke or you'll never progress.

tunney

I know of one triathlete who became a good swimmer (i.e. sub 19 1500M), however it took years and 50km per week swimming.

If you weren't a childhood swimmer I think the best you can hope for is a 22 minute 1500m.

Multiude of reasons, most demonstratible is flexiblity, grab a proper swimmer, pull his/her arms back behind their back (from a position of arms up at shoulder height, cruxifiction position , palms facing forwards)(get permission first!) and see that they can cross at the back without them even noticing. try yours, odds are they barely go back a few inches.

So no you nor I will ever be good swimmers. Okay swimmers (22-24 minute 1500ms) with work but never good.

However at AG level you can make it up with damn hard work on the bike and run.

tunney

bagus wrote: »

Being the shortest leg of a tri the difference between a good swim and a very good swim is not a huge amount of time (relative to the bike and run).

One of my mates swims 19 for 1500m, I swim 24-25, he has 5-6 minutes on me out of the water. If we were to bike the same and he ran 35 for 10km then I'd have to run 29 to beat him. It can be a huge difference.

shels4ever

tunney wrote: »

One of my mates swims 19 for 1500m, I swim 24-25, he has 5-6 minutes on me out of the water. If we were to bike the same and he ran 35 for 10km then I'd have to run 29 to beat him. It can be a huge difference.

Just wondered how you plan your training , do you sit down and decide on a level across all 3 events that you'd can achieve
I mean this in regards to the work needed to take you your 1500 time to 23 and what would that mean to your cycle, run .

tunney

shels4ever wrote: »

Just wondered how you plan your training , do you sit down and decide on a level across all 3 events that you'd can achieve
I mean this in regards to the work needed to take you your 1500 time to 23 and what would that mean to your cycle, run .

Sorry, must be the hunger but don't get the question.

shels4ever

tunney wrote: »

Sorry, must be the hunger but don't get the question.

Maybe put it wrong. Basically how do you decide on the amount of training for each area. If you could take anohter 2 mins of your swimming time but would require X amount of extra training but could have a negitive impact on your running etc.

Would your coach tell you no point trying to go faster then 24 mins for the swim, kind of a cost benifit stuff.


Sounds better in my head.

Enduro

Repitive training, and adding distance will make you a fitter and therefore better runner and cyclist. Repitive swimming and adding distance will re-enforce bad technique.

Swimming is fundamentally different to cycling and running in that it is far more important to improve technique than to improve fitness. You see plenty of slow swimmers who can expend a huge amount of energy (which must take a lot of fitness) to swim slowly, and see good swimmers gliding apparently effortlessly thorugh the water at considerable speed. Personally I'd recommend reading into the theory behind this to get an understanding of why this is. I found the "Total Immersion" books to be particularly good.

tunney

Enduro wrote: »

Repitive training, and adding distance will make you a fitter and therefore better runner and cyclist. Repitive swimming and adding distance will re-enforce bad technique.

Swimming is fundamentally different to cycling and running in that it is far more important to improve technique than to improve fitness. You see plenty of slow swimmers who can expend a huge amount of energy (which must take a lot of fitness) to swim slowly, and see good swimmers gliding apparently effortlessly thorugh the water at considerable speed. Personally I'd recommend reading into the theory behind this to get an understanding of why this is. I found the "Total Immersion" books to be particularly good.

Total Immersion books are widely regarded to be only useful for teaching someone to swim. Once you start worrying about being a good swimmer Total Immersion is next to useless.

interested

Seres wrote: »

my backround is running but its the swim that always kills me in triathlons , i have found that giving the bike alot of time can significantly improve your times , however the same does not apply for swimming IMO , what is the solution? expensive coaching sessions ? long sessions in the pool ? or is the swimming a strong limiting factor for people who dont have a backround in swimming ?

Going back to the original question:
I think it is entirely possible for people to improve their swim as part of Triathlon. But you have to be smart about it. Training with bad habits wont allow you to deliver the results you'd expect from the additional time spent swimming. Additionally, cruising up and down the pool aimlessly is not going to give you the appropriate bang for your buck.
Depending on whats going on with your stroke it really shouldnt take a good coach 3 or 4 sessions to tell you what you're doing wrong ... or what you could be doing better.


As mentioned before:
- get a lesson to address any obvious issues, go away and practice correcting any issues (oct, nov are as good a time as any) and forget the clock and ego during this. If you can improve the efficiency of your stroke over 25 metres the benefits of this over 1500 will be potentially hugh.

- how many hours do you think you can give to swimming per week ?
The argument Ive heard from other people is I dont have 4 hours a week to give swimming for the 2 or 3 minutes Im loosing during a Tri. Its not always about time .... if you can efficiently swim through a 1500 swim at the same as you are now, the energy saved is likely to put you in a position to get a bike and run p.b. - If you can get out of the water 2 minutes earlier there may be considerably less traffic in transition to be dealt with which also helps.
If you can get involved in a masters club and swim each morning or every second morning for a couple of months its likely to help a great deal.

- during the summer how many open water sessions do you do per week ?
Pool swimming is handy for most but if you're racing in open water its wise to swim regularly in those conditions. The reason being that waves, currents, sighting are all things to be handled when swimming in Triathlon events. Some good pool swimmers never translate it to OW swimming because its almost an entirely different kettle of fish at times.

- when you're swimming do you use a minute clock ?
Doing X metres slow and steady wont make you faster. Instead of 1500 straight, do 200 warm up, 8*100 on a time that gives you 10 seconds rest, 60 seconds rest, 300 (100 kick, 100 pull left arm, 100 pull right arm) stroke work, 200 warm down.

Id have a background in competitive pool swimming and OW swims. My best time in the pool was just over 16 minutes for the 1500 and 4.02 for the 400. When I was 13 I finished 3rd in the OW league. Sets like 10,000 metres straight, 60*100 (5*100 on 1.15 desc with 60 rest) * 12, 30 * 200 butterfly ... demonstrate that there was no easy way to these times for a short a&s like me that has not natural stereotypical attributes of a swimmer.

I swam competitively between the ages of 10 and 22 and then gave it all up to finish college and get a job etc. 10 years later and about 6 stone heavier, I decided enough was enough and got fit over a winter and decided to try a sprint triathlon.
I was in the top 5 exiting the water. Reasons for this 1) standard of swimming in triathlon was/is very poor - it may have been just that race ..maybe 2) my stroke suits swimming in the sea 3) I can swim efficiently.

Sadly, and rather humerously I died a death on the bike and in particular the run. My flexible ankles and shoulders certainly didnt help me on the run
Anyhow - keep at it - it'll frustrate the hell out of you but the breakthrough will come.