Reform Education

cormacmoore · 15-09-2009 2:31pm #1

There's currently a large problem with the irish education system, that if not tackled soon, will leave us in a very drastic state of affairs - no where near the recovery that has been promised to us in the near future.
Here's what I'm talking about; the society at the moment is moving into a innovation, knowledge based society, where the bulk of our economic and social progress will come form the generation of new ideas - ideas that can add value both here and abroad, ideas that can create jobs and national income together with increased investment from abroad.

Low skilled and manufacturing jobs are too expensive, and so MNC's are moving elsewhere - they simply cannot survive here anymore, adding to the figures on the dole and reducing the overall tax take for the government. also not good...

so currently the only thing we have feeding people into this new knowledge based society is our education system, but theres a huge problem with our current system.

The irish education system is stuck in an industrial, military style system, promoting simple reguritation of information and not alot else. The system is conditioning people to sit back and take information off a teacher or lecturer. We reward students to just receive information and enforce a logical, memory based approach which does not even try to stimulate or develop the personal traits the future workforce and members of society need.

This innovation economy will be based on new ideas. Creativity, enterprise, innovation, passion and desire are whats needed to come up with new valuable ideas that can be turned into employment and national income. We do not value creativity, or get students curious about taking on their own learning. We do not get them to enjoy education and are shooting ourselves in the foot. We need people to be innovative and we need to stimulate that as soon as possible and not base our view of intelligence on a points system for remembering old information that adds nothing to anybodys lives - old information is available to everyone and with the dawn of the internet, remembering moutains of information should be seen as a waste of time, since it is quickly available online.
It's ironic that we use an economic model of supply and demand to measure intelligence and grant college courses, should we not use a model for intelligence? Do we even have any?

Reform is needed now more than even and the CSO proves this. The Avergage score for the LC nationally has stayed in and around the area of 300 points - thats a clear failing. Techniqcally if our system was improving, then the average score must increase. the money invested has not yielded a national significant increase, so its failed and its time for a change.

Fad · 15-09-2009 2:57pm

How/Why is 300 points technically a failing?

Your hard hitting ideas and sentiments are lost on us, sorry bud, hopefully a mod will move this thread along to greener pastures........

p1akuw47h5r3it · 15-09-2009 3:05pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

so currently the only thing we have feeding people into this new knowledge based society is our education system, but theres a huge problem with our current system.

Reform is needed now more than even and the CSO proves this. The Avergage score for the LC nationally has stayed in and around the area of 300 points - thats a clear failing. Techniqcally if our system was improving, then the average score must increase. the money invested has not yielded a national significant increase, so its failed and its time for a change.

But u see the LC is corrected in such a way that there has to be a certain amount of A's, B's, C's...It is sortof corrected using a quota system.

And I dont see why 300 is a fail. If 600 is seen as really smart, then 300 is just average intelligence as it's half of 600.

and what do u suggest the gov. do?? It's too easy to piss and moan about what is wrong. It's a lot harder to think of a solution.

Do you think the goverment shud introduce something like the A-levels, where everything is project based??

cormacmoore · 15-09-2009 3:06pm

no it in itself is not, but the fact that for the last 10 years it has stayed there is.

if you spend 10 years investing time and money into something and you cannot move your averages, then something is wrong somewhere dont cha think??:D

p1akuw47h5r3it · 15-09-2009 3:11pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

no it in itself is not, but the fact that for the last 10 years it has stayed there is.

if you spend 10 years investing time and money into something and you cannot move your averages, then something is wrong somewhere dont cha think??:D

It's a well known fact that the LC has/is becoming easier every year... You just need to compare exams pprs from 10 years ago to now... The reason the averages havent changed is because of the correction system that is used (explained above)....Makes sense, don't cha think?:D

Fad · 15-09-2009 3:13pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

no it in itself is not, but the fact that for the last 10 years it has stayed there is.

if you spend 10 years investing time and money into something and you cannot move your averages, then something is wrong somewhere dont cha think??:D

I think our 2nd level education system is hopelessly flawed in so many respects, but nothing will be done, it's kinda doing its job, that's all that's needed from it, is it doing it well? No, but will it do? For all intents and purposes, yes. And what does that mean? There will be no reform.

cormacmoore · 15-09-2009 3:17pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

But u see the LC is corrected in such a way that there has to be a certain amount of A's, B's, C's...It is sortof corrected using a quota system.

And I dont see why 300 is a fail. If 600 is seen as really smart, then 300 is just average intelligence as it's half of 600.

and what do u suggest the gov. do?? It's too easy to piss and moan about what is wrong. It's a lot harder to think of a solution.

Do you think the goverment shud introduce something like the A-levels, where everything is project based??

I dont think 300 is a failing, the fact that it hasnt improved nationally over the last 10 years is a failing tho, and the numbers prove that.

An A-level model would work better, but i think a complete revamp of the current system and view of education and intelligence is needed.

Passing exams dont mean you can do a job well - dosnt mean you can make a difference or improve the quality of someones life - essentially the system is a very selfish system, only benefitting the person doing it (and we wonder why we have corrupt and self centered politicians and bankers...?)

600=genius.... not really. CAO points dont reflect social skills, experience, creativity etc...and remembering tons of information wont lead to new ideas.

yes i know its easy to moan about things - its also easier to sit back and do nothing about it too!

Fad · 15-09-2009 3:22pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

I dont think 300 is a failing, the fact that it hasnt improved nationally over the last 10 years is a failing tho, and the numbers prove that.

An A-level model would work better, but i think a complete revamp of the current system and view of education and intelligence is needed.

Passing exams dont mean you can do a job well - dosnt mean you can make a difference or improve the quality of someones life - essentially the system is a very selfish system, only benefitting the person doing it (and we wonder why we have corrupt and self centered politicians and bankers...?)

600=genius.... not really. CAO points dont reflect social skills, experience, creativity etc...and remembering tons of information wont lead to new ideas.

yes i know its easy to moan about things - its also easier to sit back and do nothing about it too!

You're just regurgitating what everyone thinks/knows about the system, to be perfectly honest with you, it really doesnt need to touched for the moment. I think there's more immediate matters at hand in need of change (Like taxation for example), once that's sorted, then education might get a look in, but realistically, nothing's going to change.

cormacmoore · 15-09-2009 3:27pm

Fad wrote: »

You're just regurgitating what everyone thinks/knows about the system, to be perfectly honest with you, it really doesnt need to touched for the moment. I think there's more immediate matters at hand in need of change (Like taxation for example), once that's sorted, then education might get a look in, but realistically, nothing's going to change.

Yes of course, there are clearly more urgent things that need attention right now -but our focus on short term has gotten this country into the current state its in, we need to plan long term and make changes along the way, realise where we are heading and realise that our system is not developing the type of people needed to sustain the economy.

Fad · 15-09-2009 3:33pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

Yes of course, there are clearly more urgent things that need attention right now -but our focus on short term has gotten this country into the current state its in, we need to plan long term and make changes along the way, realise where we are heading and realise that our system is not developing the type of people needed to sustain the economy.

I understand that, but when it's almost adequate, I cant see anyone prioritising it, even during a boom of some sort.

p1akuw47h5r3it · 15-09-2009 3:34pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

I dont think 300 is a failing, the fact that it hasnt improved nationally over the last 10 years is a failing tho, and the numbers prove that.

An A-level model would work better, but i think a complete revamp of the current system and view of education and intelligence is needed.

Passing exams dont mean you can do a job well - dosnt mean you can make a difference or improve the quality of someones life - essentially the system is a very selfish system, only benefitting the person doing it (and we wonder why we have corrupt and self centered politicians and bankers...?)

600=genius.... not really. CAO points dont reflect social skills, experience, creativity etc...and remembering tons of information wont lead to new ideas.

yes i know its easy to moan about things - its also easier to sit back and do nothing about it too!

THIS IS A RESULT OF THE WAY THE lc IS CORRECTED. i'VE SAID THIS 3 TIMES NOW

Ye your right. But it does mean you can work hard. The LC still demands a lot of hard work. And I don't understand the selfish elemant. If you do the work, why should somebody else benefit?

A person who gets 600 in their LC is by no means a genius, however they are more intelligent then the "average student". I agree about the social skills altho I beleive to get 600 points you have to be somewhat creative.

Edit: and btw, the majority of politicians are corrupt or have something to hide. This is true of the whole world, not just Ireland.

randylonghorn · 15-09-2009 3:43pm

Fad wrote: »

... hopefully a mod will move this thread along to greener pastures........

If I had a greener pasture to move it to, I would. I've been saying for ages that a general "Educ. policy & practice" forum is needed.

In it's absence, given that the OP started it here, I'll leave it here for the moment, unless a more obvious home for it becomes apparent.

cormacmoore wrote: »

An A-level model would work better ...

Why do you say that?

A-levels tend to suffer from the same failings as LC, to my mind (and it will come as no huge surprise to regular readers of this forum that I agree with you to an extent at least re: memorization / regurgitation).

This is evidenced by the fact that we're hearing a mounting albeit as yet low-key groundswell from the top English Uni's that they are no longer content to rely entirely on A-levels to select the best students.

cormacmoore · 15-09-2009 3:51pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

A person who gets 600 in their LC is by no means a genius, however they are more intelligent then the "average student". I agree about the social skills altho I beleive to get 600 points you have to be somewhat creative.

So would you agree that the current correction system is flawed then? I dont know of any golfer that spends years training only to develop a marking scheme that keeps his handy cap the same...

and when you say "more intelligent", that is only intelligent in terms of the exams and the model that person is fit into - for example, which is a better car, a Formula 1 ferrari, of a nissan micra?

Place both cars on a racing track and yes, the ferrari will outshine every single time. but you cant pick up the kids in a F1 car, nor can you pick up your mates, win a rally championship or go off roading - intelligence is a very vague idea that we seem to pin to memory etc....

I'm saying the the LC is rewarding only a small body of people, those 300 points people for example may be incredible at something else, be it art/music/sport whatever, and they wont nor cant be recognised for it.

:D:D

Fad · 15-09-2009 4:09pm

randylonghorn wrote: »

If I had a greener pasture to move it to, I would. I've been saying for ages that a general "Educ. policy & practice" forum is needed.

In it's absence, given that the OP started it here, I'll leave it here for the moment, unless a more obvious home for it becomes apparent.

I getcha, I do think teaching and lecturing would probably get this thread a better response though.

randylonghorn · 15-09-2009 4:16pm

Fad wrote: »

I getcha, I do think teaching and lecturing would probably get this thread a better response though.

Maybe.

A different response certainly.

If I threw it into one of the third level forums the response would probably be slightly different again.

You lot are the ones being "acted upon" by the system. Don't you have a right to comment and discuss too?

p1akuw47h5r3it · 15-09-2009 4:17pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

DanDan6592 wrote: »

A person who gets 600 in their LC is by no means a genius, however they are more intelligent then the "average student". I agree about the social skills altho I beleive to get 600 points you have to be somewhat creative.

1. So would you agree that the current correction system is flawed then? I dont know of any golfer that spends years training only to develop a marking scheme that keeps his handy cap the same...

and when you say "more intelligent", that is only intelligent in terms of the exams and the model that person is fit into - for example, which is a better car, a Formula 1 ferrari, of a nissan micra?

Place both cars on a racing track and yes, the ferrari will outshine every single time. but you cant pick up the kids in a F1 car, nor can you pick up your mates, win a rally championship or go off roading - intelligence is a very vague idea that we seem to pin to memory etc....

2.I'm saying the the LC is rewarding only a small body of people, those 300 points people for example may be incredible at something else, be it art/music/sport whatever, and they wont nor cant be recognised for it.

:D:D

Ye sorry I do agree with u to an extent. I beleive that the education system is flawed. Noone dissagrees with that. However what kind of changes do u suggest?

1. No he wouldn't. The golfer isn't goin to develop a marking shceme wer his handycap just goes down for the sake of it either. How will he know if he has improved.I don't really think it's a good example anyway. I get what u mean but still...

I mean do u suggest the gov. brings in a system where grades will just continually increase just so things a least appear they are getting better?? I mean that is equally as silly. And you still haven't made any suggestions on how to improve the system.

2. Your right. It is well known that there are many different types of intelligence. However there is an art exam and there is a music exam for those people who shine in these areas. I dont think it would be possible to grade people who are great at sports. Some people are also great at maths and terrible at English and vice versa. However when it comes to exam time it is evened out.

You have 6 people who each speacilise in 1 subject and are hopeless at the other 5 subjects.
art student
Eng student
Maths "
Music "
Geog student
Woodwork student.

All the students must take the same exam in all the subjects. Now obviously the art student will do best in art, english student in english etc. etc.
So it will balance itself out. Granted this system doesnt cater for people who excell in sports but how could you have a " sports test"

rainbowtrout · 15-09-2009 6:20pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

I'm saying the the LC is rewarding only a small body of people, those 300 points people for example may be incredible at something else, be it art/music/sport whatever, and they wont nor cant be recognised for it.

:D:D

I'd say the people that get 300 and are happily following a path in their chosen areas would probably disagree with you. Why wouldn't a person be recognised for their creative abilities because they scored average points in the leaving cert?

Actually the three areas you mention there are probably some of the few areas where you don't have to have a formal academic qualification to excel in your field. Ask any professional sportsperson, or musician or artist.

While the Leaving Cert is a means to an end, it shouldn't justify a person's whole existence.

spurious · 15-09-2009 7:10pm

I would be VERY surprised if the average points for Leaving Cert. was 300 or anything like it.

Where did you get that figure?
Did you include the whole LC cohort?

burgess1 · 15-09-2009 9:56pm

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Do you think the goverment shud introduce something like the A-levels, where everything is project based??

A levels aren't always project based.

Students in the UK complete GCSEs at 16 and then have a choice of A levels (usually in 2 to 4 subjects), a national diploma (in one area) or a national vocational qualification.

15-09-2009 10:23pm

cormacmoore wrote: »

I'm saying the the LC is rewarding only a small body of people, those 300 points people for example may be incredible at something else, be it art/music/sport whatever, and they wont nor cant be recognised for it.

:D:D

The LC is primarily used as a means of assessing students for entry into university/IT's. Although sporting ability is a good thing, the skills required have little relevance to the skills needed for a third level course. The NCAD ignores the LC and just assesses entrants by a portfolio of work.

pathway33 · 15-09-2009 10:42pm

spurious wrote: »

I would be VERY surprised if the average points for Leaving Cert. was 300 or anything like it.

Where did you get that figure?
Did you include the whole LC cohort?

Year Total points scored Number of candiates Average points

1995 17,496,000 68,463 255.5

2008 16,541,050 54,196 305.2

http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/LC95PTS.pdf

http://www2.cao.ie/app_scoring/points_stats/LC09PTS.pdf

If someone has the time it would be interesting to calculate the intervening years to see the trend. My quick calculations (which may be incorrect

) were based on a weighted average of the 100 point bands.

If someone has the time I'd be delighted if they calculated the average based on the 10 point bands.

spurious · 15-09-2009 10:55pm

Does it exclude people who didn't apply to the CAO?
That would tend to point to the average being much lower than 300 if they were included, presuming most of those who did not apply to the CAO did not do so because they expected low points.

pathway33 · 15-09-2009 11:39pm

spurious wrote: »

Does it exclude people who didn't apply to the CAO?
That would tend to point to the average being much lower than 300 if they were included, presuming most of those who did not apply to the CAO did not do so because they expected low points.

Maybe. There is a gap of 3,300 students between the 2009 figure above and the figure of 57,500 students who received their results in August as given by the newspaper I googled.

Also what about the people who only repeated 1 subject say Irish for primary teaching. Are they included?

My calculation was a complete waste of 8 minutes

randylonghorn · 16-09-2009 12:37am

spurious wrote: »

Does it exclude people who didn't apply to the CAO?

I would imagine so.

pathway33 wrote: »

Maybe. There is a gap of 3,300 students between the 2009 figure above and the figure of 57,500 students who received their results in August as given by the newspaper I googled.

Wow, I knew the % applying to CAO would be high, but are over 94% of LC students really applying to do some form of third level course these days? 0_o

pathway33 wrote: »

My calculation was a complete waste of 8 minutes

Stats ... dangerous wee thingies, to be approached with extreme caution ...

[MarkTwain] There are three types of lies ... lies, damned lies and statistics! [/MarkTwain]

Reform Education

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