Ireland will roll over this time - or am i the only one seeing it coming

Plotician

To put this simply, the concerted efforts of the 'yes' campaign will ensure the treaty is approved. The co-ordinated approach taking place this time will convince the electorate.

I have my own views on whether it is all truly democratic (eg: if you propose a 'no' you must be telling a lie somewhere), however the result is assured. It's as if there's no point arguing about it anymore.

Declan Ganley might make some impact but i think the 'ayes' have it.

Paddypower think the same.

faceman

Perhaps if you present your opinion on the Lisbon with educated opinion and facts then people will listen?

That seems to be the big failure of most of the No campaigners this time round.

marco_polo

Is there a point to this thread?

prinz

marco_polo wrote: »

Is there a point to this thread?

Shameless advertising on behalf of Paddy Power :D

Rb

Of course we'll roll over, we've two main political parties playing on people's fear and greed with their posters full of bs and veiled threats.

I've said it in other, non-lisbon, threads previously. We're a nation of spineless, greedy cowards. Look who are still in Government! So how do you get what you want from a nation of such people? Play to their pockets and their fears.

I'd be very surprised if it ends up being No, but I'll be disgusted with a Yes result. It will merely confirm my thoughts on the country, which is fine, it just sucks that the whole world has to see.

humanji

Rb wrote: »

Of course we'll roll over, we've two main political parties playing on people's fear and greed with their posters full of bs and veiled threats.

You leave Coir and Sinn fein out of this! :P

Rb

Lol.

Unlike FF and FG, Coir and Sinn Fein don't have the support of 47% of the electorate (combined)

Plotician

marco_polo wrote: »

Is there a point to this thread?

Ok, maybe to put it in context.

Let's start by saying these threads are probably read by a couple of thousand people, the mix being guys off the street with an interest in politics and or the treaty itself, others that may be affiliated with or part of political parties.

I am one of the guys off the street. No political party or persuasion, and although i might vote 'no' i havn't been to the COIR or SF websites to get their particular opinions. (In fact i don't even know what 'COIR' stands for).

Where i am coming from is that this referendum is highlighting how the process can be abused (or at least clumsily managed if i want to be more tolerant).

For anyone to consider this they need to put the treaty to one side for the moment and take a little intellectual sidestep. Now ask what you would like to see from all your elected representatives when being presented with a referendum decision.

Put together your list, and then come back to this particular debate. How many boxes get ticked?

We're having a referendum that changes Irelands constitution. That in itself makes it a matter of national importance. Regardless of the question at hand (Lisbon), I think there is a duty by elected representatives to put forward facts (and i mean both sides), and leave the rhetoric to others.

I have never been a user on boards.ie before (nor on politics.ie - that seems to be largely a lobbyists playground), so i guess i'm coming at this from a stand back and look perspective.

Looking for a perfect world? Probably, but what's wrong with wanting one.

Now lets all return to the Lisbon Treaty and carry on where we left off!

Rb

Rb wrote: »

but I'll be disgusted with a Yes result. It will merely confirm my thoughts on the country, which is fine, it just sucks that the whole world has to see.

I'm judging by your posts that you've reams of studies and research done across Europe to show that Europeans have as equally a bad opinion of the irish people as you do ?

Scofflaw

Plotician wrote: »

Ok, maybe to put it in context.

Let's start by saying these threads are probably read by a couple of thousand people, the mix being guys off the street with an interest in politics and or the treaty itself, others that may be affiliated with or part of political parties.

I am one of the guys off the street. No political party or persuasion, and although i might vote 'no' i havn't been to the COIR or SF websites to get their particular opinions. (In fact i don't even know what 'COIR' stands for).

Where i am coming from is that this referendum is highlighting how the process can be abused (or at least clumsily managed if i want to be more tolerant).

For anyone to consider this they need to put the treaty to one side for the moment and take a little intellectual sidestep. Now ask what you would like to see from all your elected representatives when being presented with a referendum decision.

Put together your list, and then come back to this particular debate. How many boxes get ticked?

We're having a referendum that changes Irelands constitution. That in itself makes it a matter of national importance. Regardless of the question at hand (Lisbon), I think there is a duty by elected representatives to put forward facts (and i mean both sides), and leave the rhetoric to others.

I have never been a user on boards.ie before (nor on politics.ie - that seems to be largely a lobbyists playground), so i guess i'm coming at this from a stand back and look perspective.

Looking for a perfect world? Probably, but what's wrong with wanting one.

Now lets all return to the Lisbon Treaty and carry on where we left off!

I don't think our referendum campaigns are a particularly edifying spectacle, but nobody's are.

cordially,
Scofflaw

turgon

Plotician wrote: »

In fact i don't even know what 'COIR' stands for

Committee for the Organization of Ignorance.

nullzero

The treaty will be ratified by a landslide, but whether you're delighted by that or not I think that its sad that both sides are using nothing but scare mongering to gain support.
There are good arguments for and against the Lisbon treaty in yet all we get are half truths at best and complete lies at worst.
As a nation we should be judging the Lisbon treaty on its merits or lack there of, instead we have the usual left right policital bull****, those on the Left using fear tactis for a No vote and being match stride for stride by those on the Right campaigning for a Yes vote.

I think we can all agree our political system is a ****ing farse, and the way in which Lisbon is being tackled shows that it needs for be torn down and built anew from the bottom up.
The fact is it is the people of Ireland who are the most complicit in perpetuating this sham of a system, if we showed our dis satisfaction and made the effort to affect change in our society we'd get a lot more done than by just sitting around complaining and waiting for someone to take the responsibility. Until then we'll always have scumbags in power and issues such as Lisbon will never be discussed properly.

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

I don't think our referendum campaigns are a particularly edifying spectacle, but nobody's are.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The French one on the Consitution was filled with the same kinds of scaremongering and misinformation iirc. The EU Constitution would have banned abortion in France apparently.

Rb

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm judging by your posts that you've reams of studies and research done across Europe to show that Europeans have as equally a bad opinion of the irish people as you do ?

Where did I imply that they did?

You said "It just sucks that the whole world has to see" ...

Have you reams of paperwork to back up that the whole world see's things through the same eyes you do?

Rb

Deleted User wrote: »

You said "It just sucks that the whole world has to see" ...

Have you reams of paperwork to back up that the whole world see's things through the same eyes you do?

No, I just said that it's unfortunate that the whole world, or at least those with a political interest, have to bear witness to this farce.

I didn't say that they see it as I do, nor did I imply that they do, so do stop trying to find a deeper meaning to a relatively shallow statement.

Rb

Rb wrote: »

No, I just said that it's unfortunate that the whole world, or at least those with a political interest, have to bear witness to this farce.

I didn't say that they see it as I do, nor did I imply that they do, so do stop trying to find a deeper meaning to a relatively shallow statement.

Of course what you didn't say in the above was that they'd have to see it as a farce aswell for the above opinion to stand..

djpbarry

nullzero wrote: »

There are good arguments for and against the Lisbon treaty in yet all we get are half truths at best and complete lies at worst.

I think there are good arguments for the treaty, but most are quite difficult to summarise in poster form. And if there are so many good arguments against the treaty, then why is it that this is the best Sinn Féin can come up with?

nullzero wrote: »

As a nation we should be judging the Lisbon treaty on its merits or lack there of, instead we have the usual left right policital bull****, those on the Left using fear tactis for a No vote and being match stride for stride by those on the Right campaigning for a Yes vote.

I think it’s more accurate to say that the extreme left and right are both campaigning for a ‘No’ (Ganley’s hardly left-wing, is he?) while those in the centre are campaigning for a ‘Yes’.

Rb wrote: »

No, I just said that it's unfortunate that the whole world, or at least those with a political interest, have to bear witness to this farce.

The farce being the Irish electorate voting on a document that the majority clearly don’t understand?

Sam Vimes

Rb wrote: »

I'd be very surprised if it ends up being No, but I'll be disgusted with a Yes result. It will merely confirm my thoughts on the country, which is fine, it just sucks that the whole world has to see.

I feel exactly the same way except with the words no and yes switched.

Sam Vimes

djpbarry wrote: »

I think it’s more accurate to say that the extreme left and right are both campaigning for a ‘No’ (Ganley’s hardly left-wing, is he?) while those in the centre are campaigning for a ‘Yes’.

This