non-citizen owning/possesing guns in america

firefly08

I'm moving to the US on a nonimigrant visa, for about a year, and I want to be able to do some shooting over there.

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience of this, i.e. buying guns as a non-citizen.

The best info I've been able to find is this FAQ on the ATF site:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

It seems to indicate that I need to:
1. Get a hunting license from a US State (any State)
2. Get an alien/admission number
3. If I want to buy from a registered dealer, wait till I've been there 90 days. It doesn't mention anything about private sales.

Is that all I need - have I missed anything? Any advice or experience to impart? Thanks!

Sparks

/yells
Oi, Grizzly!
:pac:

pedroeibar

firefly08 wrote: »

I'm moving to the US on a nonimigrant visa, for about a year, and I want to be able to do some shooting over there.

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience of this, i.e. buying guns as a non-citizen.

The best info I've been able to find is this FAQ on the ATF site:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm

It seems to indicate that I need to:
1. Get a hunting license from a US State (any State)
2. Get an alien/admission number
3. If I want to buy from a registered dealer, wait till I've been there 90 days. It doesn't mention anything about private sales.

Is that all I need - have I missed anything? Any advice or experience to impart? Thanks!

I spent 5 years in NYC on a non-immigrant visa (L Visa). I could not own a gun. Item B5 (5) in the link you posted gives you the answer.
P.

firefly08

Thanks for the reply! Well, yes it does say that in B5, but then section R (R1) point number 1 indicates that an exception is made if you are in possession of a valid hunting license from a US state. This is re-iterated in (R6).

If you don't mind my asking, how did you find out at the time that you could not own a gun?

pedroeibar

firefly08 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply! Well, yes it does say that in B5, but then section R (R1) point number 1 indicates that an exception is made if you are in possession of a valid hunting license from a US state. This is re-iterated in (R6).

If you don't mind my asking, how did you find out at the time that you could not own a gun?

Went to a gunstore for a look around, like a kid in a sweetshop, got talking to the owner and he told me that I could not as an alien buy a gun. That prompted me to ask the head of security (a retired FBI guy with whom I was friendly), in the building where I worked and he said that "it is almost impossible for aliens to get guns." I didn't query it too much as I was by that time used to the problems of US law for aliens (wait until you try to open a bank account!) and also had mates in NJ and NC who always had a gun for me when we went shooting.

Suggest you state your visa type and US State as this might help with a more detailed answer from others.
Good luck!
P.

Grizzly 45

If you are going to live in NYC,NJ,or CA,MA,DC,IL or any Democrat controlled "Left " State.You will have problems even as a US citizen owning a gun there.If you have a "green Card" and are in the process of becoming a US citizen,you can ,last time I looked own a gun.

If you want to buy a gun as a non resident alien,you can do so provided you export it to your home country.IOW you want somthing and are going over with a idea,and want to come home and apply for it here.Another story that.

The ATF form mentioned is if you are bringing a gun into to go hunting or targert shooting for a certain period.So you could do that.But its kind of a coals to Newcastle idea.

You could of course take up Black powder shooting over there.State permitting, they are not classifed as firearms under Fed law.:)

harmoniums

Ive got a bunch of Finnish Mosins (7.62 x54r) that are built on antique receivers
(ie pre 1898) they are rebarreled and look brand new, and shoot like new to.
they are not considered a firearm as the receiver is pre 1898.
You could legally buy one of those to shoot

they look like this:



On a side note, what state are you going to ?

firefly08

I'm going to ND. I won't have a green card, it's an E2 nonimmigrant visa.

Thanks for the advice everyone, but I still think section R (R1) of that FQA indicates that I can posses a gun. It doesn't say anything about having to export it. The requirement about having to be resident in the state for 90 days before you can purchase from a dealer would seem to indicate that they are talking about long term residents as opposed to people trying to export.

I tried e-mailing the ATF about that before, but got no answer. I will try again.

Hezz700

Take frequent weekend trips to Nevada.........:)

Grizzly 45

Or anywhere South of the Mason Dixon line...Or go West,[not to the Pacific mind]where you will still find the REAL America...:D:D

Good luck trying to mail ATFE,try mailing the Peresident too while you are at it..You will proably get a quicker reply...:rolleyes::(

From what you describe,that visa is a tourist/busisness visa.It will allow you to do that,and you can certainly open a bank account and get a social security number[One of the great myths BTW that a non resident cant do either.How do non US aliens conduct busisness in the USA,if they need to finance their busisness,projects etc???Your Soc Sec number is flagged non eligible for work,and even says so on the card,if you know where to look.]
But as to firearms purchases,I doubt it highly..As you cant do interstate purchases as a US citizen without involving a FFL to FFL transfer.So you pitching up at a gun dealer without any sort of documents isnt going to work...I was even refused a couple of times with my Irish accent,until I could prove that I was a US citizen,by producing my passport...Lets not go there,as to how many Americans have never seen what their own passports look like!:rolleyes:
Not only that your name wont be registerable on the Brady instant check,but it will be certainly flagged as trying to purchase as a non national.:(
Post 9/11 the last thing you want is to be caught doing somthing with firearms that you shouldnt be doing,being Irish,and as paranoid as they are now on security and Al Quieda...I doubt you want to extend your year to an all expenses paid trip to Club Gitmo:eek::eek:

BTW ND isnt too bad a State gunownership wise.I'm sure there will be folks who will help you out by loaning you a rake of guns for your stay,once you have told them from what sort of a sorry place you have come from on the gunownership front.

firefly08

The E2 is classed, as far as I know, as an investor visa. I was able to get this visa because of investments my employer has made in the US. I'll be resident in the US for at least a year (the visa allows me to stay for up to 4 years) and during that time I'll be working for a US company (owned by my current Irish employer) and I'll be paying taxes in the US.

Grizzly, I'm a little confused about your opinion on this - you don't think I'll be able to buy a firearm, but you think it's legal for me to be in possession of one if someone lends it to me - is that right? What if someone sells it to me privately?

In the case of a FFL, I wouldn't be turning up with no documentation. As per the ATF website's information, I'd be bringing a valid hunting license, an admission number, and proof that I've been resident for 90 days. Some of them might be paranoid, but I'm confident that if it's legal, and there's money in it, then someone somewhere in America is doing it

You're right about one thing though: I definitely don't want to try this until I'm 100% sure it's legal :eek:

firefly08

Just came across a few useful links on this. In this one, a guy describes the process of purchasing a gun in Michigan as a non-immigrant alien:
http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9936

I think this quote is telling:

I got the run-around for months trying to determine if an NIA could buy a handgun. Gun stores told me NO, my local police didn't know

Of course it would be risky to take all that as gospel, but I also found this ATF publication:
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/p5300_18.pdf

It seems to confirm my interpretation of the link I posted earlier - it lists the criteria for exceptions to the general ban (hunting license and 90 day residency) and says:

If you meet these two criteria, you are eligible to
purchase a firearm from an FFL to possess in the
United States. However, you MAY NOT take the
firearm with you when you leave the United States
unless:...

The crap thing is I will not be able to prove residency for 90 days before I come home for Christmas. So I will have to start my 90 days again in January!

pedroeibar

firefly08 wrote: »

The crap thing is I will not be able to prove residency for 90 days before I come home for Christmas. So I will have to start my 90 days again in January!

Firefly,
Don’t confuse residency and domicile. If you have a rental address on a lease, are paying US tax, time in Ireland over Xmas does not matter. Also, as you say it is only one year the Irish Revenue may hold on to you. If you work it right you could end up with two tax free allowances in the year – e.g. you leave in October, so you will get full allowance in the US for 2009 and full allowance in Ireland also for 2009.

From memory, the main obstacle I faced was that I had to live in NY State for 90 days before I could obtain the first step, a hunting licence and also had to have done the hunting exam – not a difficult one, something like 20 hours of class. (You’ll even have to do class .. Driver – Ed. to get a driver’s license.) Then you wait for the annual granting of hunting licences, in most states that was I think in August. With that under your belt you could apply for a firearms license. My ex-FBI contact told me that the procedure would be difficult because nobody knew how to handle aliens or wanted the hassle. Since then, I guess that Homeland Security has added to the process. Also realise that we tend to think of the US as one country, whereas most US states have laws/rules that frequently are slightly different and easily trap the unwary, so with guns be extra careful.

As Grizzley said, you should not have a problem with shooting; just get to know some shooting guys by turning up at a range. Most guys there will be delighted to meet a shooter from Ireland, will make you welcome and will inevitably have an Irish connection to bore you with!

Get a Soc. Sec. Card/number asap, get a letter from your US employer stating what you are doing in the US – that is a big help in processing everything. With the SS card you next get a driver’s license, that is a big door opener everywhere as it is photo id. Get utilities bills in your names asap also as they provide proof of residence.

The E2 is as you say for an employee of an inward investor visa. The L1 I had is not dissimilar, but does not require investment. Both allow you to live & work in the US for a stated period but only for that employer. (A problem with the L visa is that the accompanying spouse cannot work in the US unless a prospective employer is prepared to do the paperwork for him/her – usually most unlikely as it takes an age when they want an employee immediately.) The E2 I think allows for an application for a work “general permit” for the spouse, which is easier to obtain and makes the spouse more “marketable.” Finally, get agreement from your HR dept that they will pay an accountant to do your tax return in the US, it makes our one look very simple.
You’ll have a ball!
Rs
P.

firefly08

If you have a rental address on a lease, are paying US tax, time in Ireland over Xmas does not matter

Unfortunately it does. You have to prove 90 days of residency without leaving the country in the meantime:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/2004-1.htm

I'll have been there for 90 days, but I won't have any bills etc. by then to prove it.

I didn't know that licenses were only issued at certain times. That could throw a spanner in the works for me if they only issue them in August in ND.

pedroeibar

firefly08 wrote: »

I'll have been there for 90 days, but I won't have any bills etc. by then to prove it.

I didn't know that licenses were only issued at certain times. That could throw a spanner in the works for me if they only issue them in August in ND.

You're right. That residency requirement does not sit with their tax law tho! :-)
If you won't have gas/electricity bills you will have big problems in proving residency IMO. They are a standard request for almost all official encounters.

License issue depends on State; for ND, look at http://gf.nd.gov/regulations/waterfowl/index.html
Why don't you post on a US Board and ask there? They usually have several gun dealers as posters and would give you up to date info.
Rs
P.

ironsight

Simple solution......

Find a nice US lady. get married and adjust status.... then haul yourself down to WEST BY GOD VIRGINIA.

Grizzly 45

Grizzly, I'm a little confused about your opinion on this - you don't think I'll be able to buy a firearm, but you think it's legal for me to be in possession of one if someone lends it to me - is that right? What if someone sells it to me privately?

There is plenty of things doable in the USA.However they DO have laws and more switched on police and Govt types who are only tooo aware of people wanting to circumvent the rules on gun ownership...Stings and entrapment are quite legal methods in the US LEO arsenal for crime fighting.And NO they do NOT have to tell you they are LEO/Feds,etc[Sopranos TV seris notwithstanding:rolleyes:] if directly asked..I would forget private sales,unless you know the people personally and very ,very well.After all who will get the brown matter if somthing goes wrong.

In the case of a FFL, I wouldn't be turning up with no documentation. As per the ATF website's information, I'd be bringing a valid hunting license, an admission number, and proof that I've been resident for 90 days. Some of them might be paranoid, but I'm confident that if it's legal, and there's money in it, then someone somewhere in America is doing it

Yup,see above.. The hunting liscense doesnt have to be BTW in ND,if ND recognises out of state lics get the Alaska small game liscense.5dollars... doable online.:)

You're right about one thing though: I definitely don't want to try this until I'm 100% sure it's legal :eek:

[/QUOTE]
Very wise...:)

Iron,
That wont do it either....:( Getting hitched still doesnt get you US citizenship.Just gets you to live there for five years working on your Green card.

recipio

I'm retiring in two years and am seriously thinking of getting a small place in Florida.
Now I'm woefully ignorant of residency laws - havn't researched them yet but I hear Florida is pretty gun liberal. Any hope of getting a handgun to use in a shooting club / range there. !?

Grizzly 45

FLA is a good state for gun ownership.First state to introduce concealed carry permits,Class 3 full autoownership state
If you can prove US citzenship,or green card or permanent residency,etc,etc.Lets just say move there and find out then....;)When my time comes or the EU and Ireland gets stupider with its gun laws,thats where I'll be heading...

freddieot

Often thought of moving to the US myself when I retire, not just becuase of the better shooting situation but to get some decent weather as well but must admit I'd be a bit worried about the cost of health care. Not a place to get sick and that's more likely when you're older of course !!

Anyone have experience about the situation in Canada from the National Health and of course the gun law viewpoints ?

Grizzly 45

Freddie,
At least if you have the cash you will get the treatment as good as anyone else in the US..
Of course if Obama lama pushes public health thru,dont expect anything better than what we have here,if not totally worse..It will cost a mint off your taxes and make the HSE look like a paragon of efficency.:(

Canada,the gun laws are apprently not much better than here,in some cases they have an advantage over the US in certain laws.
But not worth it in the long run.. Stay away from the Frenchie bit...Apprently 12/14 hours waiting is the norm too.Even if you are paying..As thats the first and last thing they ask in English,"Cash or credit card??"and then go back to "Je ne parlez Anglais!" with an attitude..

Our man in Havana

When I lived in Nevada pre 9/11 there was no problem going shooting with folks, they were glad to have me along. But sadly gun purchases were a big no no.

Once you had a social security number there was no bother opening bank accounts anywhere. Once you had the auld driving licence got you were set. It was the handiest piece of ID you could have, esp when they wanted ID to buy booze etc.

firefly08

Well, I didn't think it would ever happen, but I finally got a reply from the AFT. Here's my e-mail and the reply I got:

Hi,

I am planning to live in the United States for at least a year, on an E2 non-immigrant visa. I am an Irish national. I'd like to do some hunting and perhaps target shooting while there, and I am trying to find out if I can legally purchase/posses firearms in the US for that purpose.

I have read the firearms FAQ on your website and section R (R1) seems to indicate that I be in possession of a firearm if I have a valid hunting license, and that I can purchase from a licensed dealer once I have been resident in a state for 90 days and have an alien/admission number. Is that correct?

I'd greatly appreciate any advice you can give me.

Thanks in advance,
XXX XXX,
Ireland


Reply

Firearms Enforcement Branch to me
show details 10:00 AM (23 minutes ago)
You are correct. However, bear in mind that there are prohibitions to firearm possession in the US (convicted felon, unlawful drug user, etc.) see FAQ B5 on the www.atf.gov website for a complete list. To purchase a firearm you will need to provide documentation establishing 90 days of residency in a State. The 90 days have to be the previous 90 days before the purchase. A nonimmigrant usually does this by providing the dealer with utility bills for the previous 3 months. The utility bills have to be in your name and have to have the address where you reside. Additionally, you will have to have acquired a hunting license prior to the transfer.

ATF Firearms Enforcement Branch

So it looks like i interpreted the ATF FAQ correctly. Still, easier said than done - so I will post back here when I've finally got hold of a firearm. Thanks for all the replies guys.