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Atheism & Agnosticism - why in the same forum?

  • 13-09-2009 4:46pm
    #1
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,568 ✭✭✭


    Is it just me or does anyone else think that Atheism & Agnosticism are ideas akin to oil and water and maybe shouldn't be lumped together in the same forum?

    After all, atheists don't believe in any monotheistic higher power yet agnostics concede that there might indeed be one after all.

    Juxtaposition, much?


Comments

  • #2
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Good idea.
    Robin, you take Atheism.
    Dades, you can have Agnosticism.


  • #3
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Is it just me or does anyone else think that Atheism & Agnosticism are ideas akin to oil and water and maybe shouldn't be lumped together in the same forum?

    After all, atheists don't believe in any monotheistic higher power yet agnostics concede that there might indeed be one after all.

    Juxtaposition, much?

    Not really,

    Most atheists/agnostics don't believe in the deities set forth in stone by the world's religions.
    Also most of us aren't purely atheists,
    Some are ignostics,
    Some are agnostics,
    Some are agnostics atheists,
    Some are agnostic theists,
    Some are ...ah never mind you get the point:P


  • #4
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,449 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    shouldn't be lumped together in the same forum?
    Our first schism?

    Half of you, up against the wall, please!


  • #5
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Surely Dades gets the Atheists?


  • #6
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    5uspect wrote: »
    Surely Dades gets the Atheists?

    Why what's wrong with robbie?


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  • #7
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    I think it is because we're all agnostics here. We all say "we don't/can't know", and even when those of us state that we believe there is no god, it is still always accompanied by some degree doubt. Atheist is just a moniker used to differentiate the agnostics who take the (more sensible) position that organised religion is balls from the ones who think there is actually a similar chance of there being no god/being a theistic god.

    For example, I'm open to the idea that "god"=the universe, or that there is "something" more, but I'm certain that all organised religion is false. There are people out there that claim that the (x religion) god(s) may be real, or that they might not. I wouldn't accept that as a possibility myself.

    That being said, I don't mean to put words in people's mouths, but my best impression is that that is a broadly held position here.


  • #8
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    I think it is because we're all agnostics here. We all say "we don't/can't know", and even when those of us state that we believe there is no god, it is still always accompanied by some degree doubt. Atheist is just a moniker used to differentiate the agnostics who take the (more sensible) position that organised religion is balls from the ones who think there is actually a similar chance of there being no god/being a theistic god.

    For example, I'm open to the idea that "god"=the universe, or that there is "something" more, but I'm certain that all organised religion is false. There are people out there that claim that the (x religion) god(s) may be real, or that they might not. I wouldn't accept that as a possibility myself.

    That being said, I don't mean to put words in people's mouths, but my best impression is that that is a broadly held position here.

    Yep agree, organised religion is utterly false.


  • #9
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    robindch wrote: »
    Our first schism?

    Half of you, up against the wall, please!

    As long as I'm in the half with the guns...


  • #10
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    After all, atheists don't believe in any monotheistic higher power yet agnostics concede that there might indeed be one after all.
    Is it not possible to not believe a higher power exists but concede there might indeed be one?
    Ask yourself why did the "atheist bus" declare "There's probably no God"?

    Atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive. Though it appears to be a common misconception.

    See this thread here, and also this one. :)


  • #11
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    5uspect wrote: »
    Surely Dades gets the Atheists?

    Nope. I've seen his T-shirt. "There's probably no God".


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  • #12
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    DublinWriter wrote: »
    Is it just me or does anyone else think that Atheism & Agnosticism are ideas akin to oil and water and maybe shouldn't be lumped together in the same forum?

    After all, atheists don't believe in any monotheistic higher power yet agnostics concede that there might indeed be one after all.

    Juxtaposition, much?
    I think you'll find that most atheists also concede that there might be a god, too, or gods. Do you ever hear read any actual atheists adamantly announcing "THERE ARE DEFINITELY NO GODS"? Sure, you'll here plenty of non-atheists saying that about atheists, which is not the same thing. The probability is extremely low, based on what we know so far, but that door is not locked.

    None of which has anything to do with Agnosticism. The common fallacy is that agnostic means "I don't know", or "not quite atheist", but that's not what the inventor of the word (T H Huxley) intended. Huxley invented the word to describe his position, which was that the question can never be answered, in the absence of any evidence for gods, and so there's no point in anyone claiming to know. (Wikipedia's write-up is pretty good on the topic.)

    So no, the two concepts are not "oil and water" and it's quite possible to subscribe to both positions. Personally, I think that it is incredibly important to try to answer these questions, which makes agnosticism look like giving up on the questions.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • #13
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I agree that Dublin Writer is correct to pose the quiestion - definitions of agnosticism vary and the word is bandied about.


  • #14
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    On the practical side of things, if you split atheism and agnostocism into two forums you'd have to rive (verb form of riven? :o) Christianity into a half dozen and Islam into at least two. Plus I've never met a Buddhist who agreed with another so they all get their own private forum.


  • #15
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,522 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Malty_T wrote: »
    Why what's wrong with robbie?

    For legacy reasons! He is after all the mod formally knows as Daisy The Atheist.


  • #16
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    the bisexuals of faith agnostics


  • #17
    komodosp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭komodosp


    We should do the opposite and lump all the religious (incl atheist/agnostic) fora into one. Best way to get interesting discussions going. We should try and mix believers and non-believers...

    We could mark individual threads then with an icon if we didn't want it to turn into a religion v atheist debate, like if a Christian wanted to discuss Mary's virginity in the context of the Christian faith, they'd mark it with a cross icon which indicates "No anti-Christian posts in this thread".


  • #18
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    komodosp wrote: »
    We should do the opposite and lump all the religious (incl atheist/agnostic) fora into one. Best way to get interesting discussions going. We should try and mix believers and non-believers...

    We could mark individual threads then with an icon if we didn't want it to turn into a religion v atheist debate, like if a Christian wanted to discuss Mary's virginity in the context of the Christian faith, they'd mark it with a cross icon which indicates "No anti-Christian posts in this thread".

    That's a terrible idea.

    I'm sure your heart's in the right place though :)


  • #19
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    komodosp wrote: »
    We should do the opposite and lump all the religious (incl atheist/agnostic) fora into one. Best way to get interesting discussions going. We should try and mix believers and non-believers...
    Forums having labels doesn't preclude anyone from contributing in them. The Christianity forum has plenty of non-believer 'contributors', as we have many believers here.

    A forum for all religions and non-believers alike would be far too unwieldy and unmanageable.


  • #20
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    For example, I'm open to the idea that "god"=the universe, or that there is "something" more, but I'm certain that all organised religion is false.
    I'm not only open to the idea that there may be something more, I know there is because there are an infinite number of wonders not yet discovered. The word atheist refers to theistic Gods. If you're going to bring in things like God=the universe then it's impossible to be an atheist because the word god can mean pretty much whatever someone wants it to mean. When I talk about God I'm referring only to personal beings with consciousness and intelligence that decided to create the universe.


  • #21
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    That's a terrible idea.

    I'm sure your heart's in the right place though :)

    At least this way you can pretend you are a majority:D:D


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  • #22
    achtungbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭achtungbarry


    robindch wrote: »
    Our first schism?

    The gourd, follow the gourde !


  • #23
    DanCorb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58 ✭✭DanCorb


    I agree that they should not be in the same forum.

    When someone says they are agnostic - that says absolutely nothing about their belief.

    Most Christians are agnostic.


  • #24
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Good idea.
    Robin, you take Atheism.
    Dades, you can have Agnosticism.


    Where would it all end though? :)

    Boards Atheist forum
    Atheist forum of boards
    Boards Agnostic forum
    Agnostic forum of boards

    Which one are we again? :confused:

    * Bloody Splitters


  • #25
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    marco_polo wrote: »

    Which one are we again? :confused:

    FSM of Boards:D


  • #26
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    marco_polo wrote: »
    Where would it all end though? :)

    Boards Atheist forum
    Atheist forum of boards
    Boards Agnostic forum
    Agnostic forum of boards

    Which one are we again? :confused:

    * Bloody Splitters

    It has to be called the Allied Atheist Alliance. That way it has three A's!!


  • #27
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I'm not only open to the idea that there may be something more, I know there is because there are an infinite number of wonders not yet discovered. The word atheist refers to theistic Gods. If you're going to bring in things like God=the universe then it's impossible to be an atheist because the word god can mean pretty much whatever someone wants it to mean. When I talk about God I'm referring only to personal beings with consciousness and intelligence that decided to create the universe.


    When you put it that way I'm in agreement...I was thinking more of something "spiritual" or "other" when I said I was open to the idea. I don't think there is, but who knows?


  • #28
    Muppet Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭Muppet Man


    Dades wrote: »
    A forum for all religions and non-believers alike would be far too unwieldy and unmanageable.

    Holy crap, that would be fun to watch from the sideline though :)


  • #29
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    I don't think that an Agnostic forum would get more traffic. Heat attracts the flies.
    Malty_T wrote: »
    Why what's wrong with robbie?
    hahaha.


  • #30
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Húrin wrote: »
    I don't think that an Agnostic forum would get more traffic.

    I dunno some folks are agnostic about fairies in the bottom of the garden.


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  • #31
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Nevore wrote: »
    Plus I've never met a Buddhist who agreed with another so they all get their own private forum.
    But we already do:p

    Buddhahaha.jpg


  • #32
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,114 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    I strongly recommend reading the following article: http://freethinker.co.uk/2009/09/25/8419/ . It says what I've been trying to say, but more effectively, and with pictures.

    Summary: (A)Gnosticism refers to what you think it is ever possible to discover, while (A)Theism is a statement about what you actually believe at any given time. They are two separate dimensions, and you can describe your position in both dimensions.

    You are the type of what the age is searching for, and what it is afraid it has found. I am so glad that you have never done anything, never carved a statue, or painted a picture, or produced anything outside of yourself! Life has been your art. You have set yourself to music. Your days are your sonnets.

    ―Oscar Wilde predicting Social Media, in The Picture of Dorian Gray



  • #33
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,563 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    ^^ I like that ^^

    It shall be referenced again!


  • #34
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    Asiaprod wrote: »
    But we already do:p
    I meant individually. :P Still, sinfest comics, so points for you!


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