Why ireland deserves lisbon

realismpol

Looking through the comments here i can see a majority of people are in favor of passing the lisbon treaty. What i can say is that ireland and the irish people deserve lisbon. They deserve all the reprecussions of what it will bring. Any country stupid enough to put blind faith in a group of people who rejected their own voting rights first time round and think that means a good thing for them in the future deserve all they get.

Im just going to vote yes to see the absolute hilariousness that will ensue a couple months to a year down the road when people who haven't actually examined and read the lisbon treaty in detail (the majority)(most of it unreadable by the way) realise what they have let themselves in for. I just can't wait to see their reactions when they realise the promises of neutrality etc going down the drain and they'll all be up in arms 'but u promised' lmao!!

Seriously vote yes...just for the laugh.:pac:

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

Dob74

realismpol wrote: »

Looking through the comments here i can see a majority of people are in favor of passing the lisbon treaty. What i can say is that ireland and the irish people deserve lisbon. They deserve all the reprecussions of what it will bring. Any country stupid enough to put blind faith in a group of people who rejected their own voting rights first time round and think that means a good thing for them in the future deserve all they get.

Im just going to vote yes to see the absolute hilariousness that will ensue a couple months to a year down the road when people who haven't actually examined and read the lisbon treaty in detail (the majority)(most of it unreadable by the way) realise what they have let themselves in for. I just can't wait to see their reactions when they realise the promises of neutrality etc going down the drain and they'll all be up in arms 'but u promised' lmao!!

Seriously vote yes...just for the laugh.:pac:

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

The only reason the majority of posters are on the Yes side, is probably due to the fact that most people with access to broadband and the web would be in a high earning household. The dart line areas of dublin and the fianna fail heart land was the only areas to pass it last time. I would expect the same again only it will probably be tighter.
It's almost a carbon copy of the last ref, all the pre election polls show a yes vote. With establishment ireland pulling every dirty trick. Although having all the hotshots in favour is probably a disadvantage, seeing that they have been exposed as a bunch of incompetent, corrupt me feiners.

ChocolateSauce

realismpol wrote: »

Looking through the comments here i can see a majority of people are in favor of passing the lisbon treaty. What i can say is that ireland and the irish people deserve lisbon. They deserve all the reprecussions of what it will bring. Any country stupid enough to put blind faith in a group of people who rejected their own voting rights first time round and think that means a good thing for them in the future deserve all they get.

Im just going to vote yes to see the absolute hilariousness that will ensue a couple months to a year down the road when people who haven't actually examined and read the lisbon treaty in detail (the majority)(most of it unreadable by the way) realise what they have let themselves in for. I just can't wait to see their reactions when they realise the promises of neutrality etc going down the drain and they'll all be up in arms 'but u promised' lmao!!

Seriously vote yes...just for the laugh.:pac:

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

Dare I say, that in a few years when nothing bad has come of our vote, I'll be laughing at the paranoid people who feared democracy would die and the EU would be calling the shots?

Tipsy Mac

realismpol wrote: »

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

Lisbon Treaty isn't a vote to be in or out of Europe :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

realismpol wrote: »

Seriously vote yes...just for the laugh.:pac:

ah nothing like a fresh doze of scaremongering from the NO side on a sunday morning

what will it be this week?

* abortion?

* more tax?

* zombie "elites"?

* conscription?

* minimum wage?

* cows?

* apes?

is_that_so

realismpol wrote: »

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

The local elections had people claiming they were for jobs. Ganley himself was for leadership, job creation and anything else he could make up. There is an art to posters - it's PR. Done properly you get people thinking and talking about it and you even get people basing their votes on them. In a Lisbon context one Mr Ganley and Libertas have only themselves to blame for their very effective campaign the last time, which showed how easily a certain proportion of the populace can be swayed by snappy one-liners.

bleg

Does the rest of the EU deserve it too?

is_that_so

bleg wrote: »

Does the rest of the EU deserve it too?

I guess you're asking me. No they don't but that's reality inasmuch as the French like Le Pen and the Mussolini name still carries clout in Italy. Politics at the best of times is of no interest to the vast majority of the populace and even when it is the choices made are unfortunately based on simplistic perceptions.

ei.sdraob

is_that_so wrote: »

, which showed how easily a certain proportion of the populace can be swayed by snappy one-liners.

he learned from the best

his friends in the ex Bush administration in US and whole bunch of admirals and officers that are directors in his company

its disturbing to see the same Neo Con tactics being used in Ireland, and worse people falling for them

/

PopeBuckfastXVI

realismpol wrote: »

Looking through the comments here i can see a majority of people are in favor of passing the lisbon treaty. What i can say is that ireland and the irish people deserve lisbon. They deserve all the reprecussions of what it will bring. Any country stupid enough to put blind faith in a group of people who rejected their own voting rights first time round and think that means a good thing for them in the future deserve all they get.

Im just going to vote yes to see the absolute hilariousness that will ensue a couple months to a year down the road when people who haven't actually examined and read the lisbon treaty in detail (the majority)(most of it unreadable by the way) realise what they have let themselves in for. I just can't wait to see their reactions when they realise the promises of neutrality etc going down the drain and they'll all be up in arms 'but u promised' lmao!!

Seriously vote yes...just for the laugh.:pac:

Like it says on the simplistic yes posters. IM SAFER IN EUROPE!:D

Heard it all before, what EU takeover has Nice propagated?

eirebhoy

Dob74 wrote: »

The only reason the majority of posters are on the Yes side, is probably due to the fact that most people with access to broadband and the web would be in a high earning household. The dart line areas of dublin and the fianna fail heart land was the only areas to pass it last time. I would expect the same again only it will probably be tighter.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055615489

cornbb

As far I can see, the most fundamental reason that people are voting No is because of fear. The outcome of the last referendum was determined by soundbites and slogans. Unfortunately its much easier to scare people with mythical claims (abortion/minimum wage/EU army etc) than it is to explain the benefits of a complex treaty. You make the claim that the yes posters are "simplistic" - "Good for Ireland, good for jobs!" is an airy-fairy and ambiguous claim to make alright, but its not possible to squeeze a reasonable explanation of the benefits onto a poster. The treaty IS readable, but its designed to be a watertight legal document, not a bullet-pointed list of slogans and soundbites.

And by the way, the claim that the EU "rejected their own voting rights first time round" is a complete lie. The EU accepted our decision first time around (the treaty hasn't been ratified yet, after all), they kindly attempted to deal with people's worries by issuing the legal guarantees. The decision to hold a second referendum was made by Ireland, not the EU.

What I'm getting is that the OP in this thread is showing a sense of doom that has no grounding in reality. The No campaigns for previous referenda always raised similar fears of doom, yet they never materialised and the countries that make up the EU have always benefited. OP, can you explain why things might be different this time?

Scofflaw

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Dare I say, that in a few years when nothing bad has come of our vote, I'll be laughing at the paranoid people who feared democracy would die and the EU would be calling the shots?

You can do that now, though, since the No campaign consists almost entirely of people who have already said exactly that at previous referendums.

cordially,
Scofflaw

bustertherat

realismpol wrote: »

I just can't wait to see their reactions when they realise the promises of neutrality etc going down the drain and they'll all be up in arms 'but u promised' lmao!!

To be honest its kinda hypocritical for them to be advocating neutrality and yet still taking up arms in opposition;)
But i can see where you're coming from. I think i'll vote no, unless someone can give me a good reason to vote yes.

Cordially,

Buster

Scofflaw

bustertherat wrote: »

To be honest its kinda hypocritical for them to be advocating neutrality and yet still taking up arms in opposition;)
But i can see where you're coming from. I think i'll vote no, unless someone can give me a good reason to vote yes.

Cordially,

Buster

Then you could vote yes for greater control over our own government in Europe, and greater citizen control over EU legislation.

cordially,
Scofflaw

rumour

Scofflaw wrote: »

You can do that now, though, since the No campaign consists almost entirely of people who have already said exactly that at previous referendums.

cordially,
Scofflaw

And still wemarch towards greater centralisation of powers in Europe. Over time the no campaigners may well prove to be right!! The Nice referendum paved the way for the constitution which was rejected and now amended here. Or soit says on the Europa website. What's next in the grand scheme for Europe?

Are all the lawyers in Brussels going tostop work and gohome and say job well done lads? I don't think so. This is a process that isnow or soon will be on an uncontrolable path with nothing tofocusitsmind other than the assimilation ofmore power. Has that not been the history to date?

marco_polo

bustertherat wrote: »

I think i'll vote no, unless someone can give me a good reason to vote yes.

Cordially,

Buster

€50?

Germany 3.7%
Ireland 3.7%

Tarobot

bustertherat wrote: »

To be honest its kinda hypocritical for them to be advocating neutrality and yet still taking up arms in opposition;)
But i can see where you're coming from. I think i'll vote no, unless someone can give me a good reason to vote yes.

1. Climate change - Lisbon would make climate change a specific objective of the EU. Ireland can't fight it alone

2. Democracy - Lisbon makes the EU more democratic through giving national parliaments a role in drafting legislation for the first time, making Council minutes public and giving the European Parliament (elected by you and me) more power.

3. Green jobs - Lisbon promotes renewable energy, energy efficiency and interconnection. All of these are of vital importance to Ireland's future green economy because we need interconnection to export our energy, energy efficiency rules means jobs for builders retrofitting houses with insulation. And jobs for smart network enginners with the deployment of renewables, electric vehicles and smart meters.

3. Crime - Lisbon allows national police to cooperate in the fight against organised crime. 9 out of 10 Irish gangs operate in Europe and it is just far too easy for them to launder money in places like Spain.

4. Human trafficking and drug-smuggling - again, we give police the ability to cooperate against what is effectively modern-day slavery

5. Peace-keeping missions. Lisbon expands the Eu's role in peacekeeping missions. Right now we have Lt. Gen Pat Nash, an Irishman, leading European forces in protecting refugees in Chad. This work is so, so important in wartorn countries.

Need more?

oscarBravo

rumour wrote: »

Over time the no campaigners may well prove to be right!!

A stopped watch is right twice a day.

imeddyhobbs

cornbb wrote: »

As far I can see, the most fundamental reason that people are voting No is because of fear.

Seems that the reason people will vote yes this time is fear,what else could have changed their minds?

Scofflaw

rumour wrote: »

And still wemarch towards greater centralisation of powers in Europe. Over time the no campaigners may well prove to be right!! The Nice referendum paved the way for the constitution which was rejected and now amended here. Or soit says on the Europa website. What's next in the grand scheme for Europe?

Are all the lawyers in Brussels going tostop work and gohome and say job well done lads? I don't think so. This is a process that isnow or soon will be on an uncontrolable path with nothing tofocusitsmind other than the assimilation ofmore power. Has that not been the history to date?

Are we knee-deep in horse-shit, as Malthus predicted we would be by now?

There's no such thing as inevitable, or even a trajectory, in human affairs. Most people in Europe are OK with some degree of integration, but the number of people who would accept a federal Europe is very small (I don't know whether it's changing), and wouldn't include me or most Yes voters.

That means that integration can go so far and no further - and it's not getting easier to pass EU treaties (to refer to it as "uncontrollable" is ridiculous for largely that reason).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Seems that the reason people will vote yes this time is fear,what else could have changed their minds?

The realisation that most of the No "reasons" given last time were lies?

amused,
Scofflaw

marco_polo

oscarBravo wrote: »

A stopped watch is right twice a day.

Except the Coir one is stuck at 13 o'clock.

imeddyhobbs

Tarobot wrote: »

1. Climate change - Lisbon would make climate change a specific objective of the EU. Ireland can't fight it alone

2. Democracy - Lisbon makes the EU more democratic through giving national parliaments a role in drafting legislation for the first time, making Council minutes public and giving the European Parliament (elected by you and me) more power.

3. Green jobs - Lisbon promotes renewable energy, energy efficiency and interconnection. All of these are of vital importance to Ireland's future green economy because we need interconnection to export our energy, energy efficiency rules means jobs for builders retrofitting houses with insulation. And jobs for smart network enginners with the deployment of renewables, electric vehicles and smart meters.

3. Crime - Lisbon allows national police to cooperate in the fight against organised crime. 9 out of 10 Irish gangs operate in Europe and it is just far too easy for them to launder money in places like Spain.

4. Human trafficking and drug-smuggling - again, we give police the ability to cooperate against what is effectively modern-day slavery

5. Peace-keeping missions. Lisbon expands the Eu's role in peacekeeping missions. Right now we have Lt. Gen Pat Nash, an Irishman, leading European forces in protecting refugees in Chad. This work is so, so important in wartorn countries.

Need more?

1. Climate change. Well if we are to get our econemy back on track then we will have to become a more polluting nation.

2. Democracy.How dare the yes side talk about Democracy when we had this vote already

3. Green jobs.Green jobs are inevitable in todays world,no union is needed to promote this,get real.

3. Crime.If national police forces cant deal with criminals now then i cant see any reasons how they can deal any better after Lisbon,scare tactic.

4. Human trafficking and drug-smuggling.Growing industries all over the world for decades,what does Lisbon do here that no other country or continent could solve?

5. Peace-keeping missions. Lisbon expands the Eu's role in peacekeeping missions. Right now we have Lt. Gen Pat Nash, an Irishman, leading European forces in protecting refugees in Chad. This work is so, so important in wartorn countries.Ireland will have the same participation IN these war torn countries with the UN,are you suggesting that we will get involved in other military matters?

Got anything better?

K-9

marco_polo wrote: »

€50?

Germany 3.7%
Ireland 3.7%

Why doesn't this get on a poster, like the 17/18% Germany, Ireland 0.8% lie?

Sam Vimes

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Got anything better?

I doubt there's much point tbh. I'd say if there was a free blowjob clause you'd find a way to dismiss it

imeddyhobbs

Scofflaw wrote: »

The realisation that most of the No "reasons" given last time were lies?

amused,
Scofflaw

I was a libertas supporter,im not aware of any lies that they told.Libertas was the biggest advocate of a no vote in the last referendum and it was just other small inconsequential groups that the yes side refer when talking about lies.

ei.sdraob

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'd say if there was a free blowjob clause you'd find a way to dismiss it

that wouldn't go down well with Coir

ei.sdraob

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I was a libertas supporter,im not aware of any lies that they told.

i tell ya, you gonna feel very foolish once you read this

how about the

"keep our commissioner" posters?

lets see now ...

There is one Commissioner per member state, though Commissioners are bound to represent the interests of the EU as a whole rather than their home state.

whats that?! He aint "our" commissioner :eek:

oh dear! what a lie you fell for ....

/

Scofflaw

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I was a libertas supporter,im not aware of any lies that they told.Libertas was the biggest advocate of a no vote in the last referendum and it was just other small inconsequential groups that the yes side refer when talking about lies.

Not really. Libertas had the original "self-amending" lie, they had the false funding claim ("entirely donation-supported"), the "take away your three-year old" claim, the "Lisbon introduces abortion" claim that they had to retract during the campaign, they were the authors of the completely false claim about corporation tax rates. I could continue, but if you supported them, and believe they told no lies, then I'm wasting my time and annoying you. Personally, though, it's hard to think of a single thing they said that turned out to be true, up to and including Ganley's claim he wouldn't get involved in Lisbon 2 if he wasn't elected.

cordially,
Scofflaw

imeddyhobbs

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I doubt there's much point tbh. I'd say if there was a free blowjob clause you'd find a way to dismiss it

If it said there was a free blowjob.notice the fullstop then i would trust it,if it says free blowjob and has several paragraphs added to it then i would go home and play with myself

marco_polo

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

I was a libertas supporter,im not aware of any lies that they told.Libertas was the biggest advocate of a no vote in the last referendum and it was just other small inconsequential groups that the yes side refer when talking about lies.

http://irish-american-news-opinion.blogspot.com/2008/06/eight-reasons-to-vote-no-to-lisbon.html

These look familiar?

imeddyhobbs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

i tell ya, you gonna feel very foolish once you read this

how about the

"keep our commissioner" posters?

lets see now ...



whats that?! He aint "our" commissioner :eek:

oh dear! what a lie you fell for ....

/

Well if it was such a LIE then what is the difference between this referendum and the last one?

ei.sdraob

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Well if it was such a LIE then what is the difference between this referendum and the last one?

This time around the commissioners get to stay as is if the treaty passes or they would go as per original Nice Treaty

but they are still not "our", the commissioners serve all of the people in the EU

do read up on what the Commission does, tho its a bit late now



so well done

Libertas managed to dupe people into voting for

keeping useless and expensive bureaucrats in power

or "unelected elites" as Declan Ganley calls them
smell the irony

imeddyhobbs

ei.sdraob wrote: »

This time around the commissioners get to stay as is if the treaty passes or they would go as per original Nice Treaty

but they are still not "our", the commissioners serve all of the people in the EU

do read up on what the Commission does, tho its a bit late now



so well done

Libertas managed to dupe people into voting for

keeping useless and expensive bureaucrats in power

or "unelected elites" as Declan Ganley calls them
smell the irony

Please dont be so condescending, condescending like European bureaucrats that made this treaty and condescending bureaucrats that have Ireland voting twice on the same document,condecending bureaucrats that will still be in the european commission after a yes or no vote.I am open to persuasion but i do not get good reasons why i should vote yes from the yes side,All i seem to hear and read is dismissive remarks from the yes side towards the no side.Its not the no side that is fighting a negative campaign,Its the yes side that are doing that mostly through dismissive and patronising
methods.If you dont vote yes you're stupid seems to be the attitude

K-9

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Please dont be so condescending, condescending like European bureaucrats that made this treaty and condescending bureaucrats have Ireland voting twice on the same document,condecending bureaucrats that will still be in the european commission after a yes or no vote.

But, he makes a good point.

What's the alternative imeddyhobbs?

imeddyhobbs

K-9 wrote: »

But, he makes a good point.

What's the alternative imeddyhobbs?

First of all we vote no.

Then the peoples of europe have a proper debate,thats it.

Scofflaw

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

First of all we vote no.

Then the peoples of europe have a proper debate,thats it.

Why did the peoples of Europe not have a proper debate when first the Constitution and then Lisbon were being negotiated? We've had seven years to debate what's in this treaty.

cordially,
scofflaw

K-9

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

First of all we vote no.

Then the peoples of europe have a proper debate,thats it.

OK, How do you elect an EU Commissioner who is supposed to be Non political?

imeddyhobbs

K-9 wrote: »

OK, How do you elect an EU Commissioner who is supposed to be Non political?

Do i sound like one of those characters out of euro disney?

Thats their job to do not mine,I just want them to do it under the system that they were elected in in the first place...Democracy

imeddyhobbs

Scofflaw wrote: »

Why did the peoples of Europe not have a proper debate when first the Constitution and then Lisbon were being negotiated? We've had seven years to debate what's in this treaty.

cordially,
scofflaw

7 years my ass,the mainstreem media only started talking about this a few months before the first referendum,Why is that

Scofflaw

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

7 years my ass,the mainstreem media only started talking about this a few months before the first referendum,Why is that

Because the mainstream media live by readership/listenership/viewers, so they don't put stuff on that people aren't interested in. The electorate ignore boring things like treaties until they're put in front of them, and then they say "What's this? I don't know anything about it! Nobody told meeee!".

Whatever the vote in October, interest may just about hold up until the next budget, and then everyone will go back to ignoring the whole thing...until next time, when the whole sorry drama will be played out all over again.

What does the No side do between campaigns?

cordially,
scofflaw

P. Breathnach

Scofflaw wrote: »

... What does the No side do between campaigns?...

Make posters.

BlitzKrieg

What does the No side do between campaigns?

during the general elctions, nothing it seems since lisbon was never brought up in 2007, a year before the referendum.

ei.sdraob

imeddyhobbs wrote: »

Please dont be so condescending,

i was not being condescending but yes i was being highly sarcastic, since its hard to remain sane when faced with the same lies over and over


you fell for a clear lie based on your lack of understanding oh how the EU works, and whats worse you voted on it and telling others to do so as well



please do a small tiny bit of research on commissioner (there are other lies from libertas btw) im not your teacher but members here on boards would be happy to clear any questions about Lisbon, theres no harm in asking

its your job to be a responsible citizen and ensure your vote is not being manipulated by such clear lying by the likes of that commissioner poster


if anything it was Libertas who were condescending by peddling all their **** to the people in hope it would stick


put the blame where it belongs please, these debates wouldnt be happening if Libertas didnt decide to put them posters up

and its happening again this time around

with the likes of Coir, Socialists and now Sinn Fein putting up posters that are either lies or have nothing to do with the Treaty

why are you not in arms about that?

Sam Vimes

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Make posters.

Sounds about right. As soon as this referendum is over they'll start making up their posters about all the problems with the next treaty. And if you think the fact that the next treaty hasn't been written yet will be any kind of hindrance to this process you don't understand the no campaign

ei.sdraob

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Sounds about right. As soon as this referendum is over they'll start making up their posters about all the problems with the next treaty. And if you think the fact that the next treaty hasn't been written yet will be any kind of hindrance to this process you don't understand the no campaign

they would just reuse the same posters

theres nothing original this time around when compared to Nice for example

PopeBuckfastXVI

ei.sdraob wrote: »

they would just reuse the same posters

theres nothing original this time around when compared to Nice for example

Come now, they never said Nice was the last ever referendum, in fairness.

They did say it would lead us into a European army, force us to join NATO, force us to legalise abortion...