Howe are irish legal professionals compared internationally

pirelli

How does the irish solicitor and irish barrister rate in the legal world of professionals.

How would you rate British barristers / solicitors in comparison to their irish counterparts, Do the irish legal professional tremble at the knees to even compare to their british counterparts.

For example if it takes a 75% of British ambulance take 8 minutes to arrive at a call and only 22% of irish ambulances make it to a call in that time.How do the irish fare in the legal service.
( stats and quote courtesy of RTE News)

I would imagine the British offer a significantly better service. Do you think it is the same for the Irish legal professional and are we the irish people getting a terrible service from 78% of the legal professions compared to the British citizen who only has to contend with crap from only 25% of the legal profession in Britain.

Tom Young

Hard to compare, as the system is totally different in the UK. Many Irish lawyers have spent their fair share of time in the EU courts too.

Trembling at the knees - unlikely.

Many Irish lawyers have international postgrads too.

You might be right about better service UK side, as legal professionals can act in chambers or collectively which is not the case in Ireland, save for larger solicitor practices.

It can't be compared to ambulance timings really.

Tom

Maximilian

Well correct me if I'm wrong but I think Irish firms have won international awards. I think MOP own some European firm of the year award once.

I don't know the value of such awards but I imagine they are quite highly regarded.

nuac

Only comparison I have as a solicitor is on cases referred to or from firms abroad.

Most UK firms very professional and efficient. Don't think UK solicitors have the same degree and intensity of client contact as in Ireland.

There is a very high degree of specialisation in the UK Bar.

European continental lawyers find it hard to understand the common law system, or do not realise that the French never got here, so we never had the equivalent of Code Napolean. I was once asked by a German Lawyer to fax him over "All the law on your Land Commission!". I would have had to write a book.

Same remarks apply to most firms I have dealt with in the former Brit Emoire/Colonies.

FInd some US lawyers poorly qualified with bad English, worse law, and high charges.

Can't see how Pirelli draws conclusions about legal practice in Ireland based on some survey of ambulance services.

Mrs.QC

Maximilian wrote: »

Well correct me if I'm wrong but I think Irish firms have won international awards. I think MOP own some European firm of the year award once.

I don't know the value of such awards but I imagine they are quite highly regarded.

I think Arthur Cox won a big one a while back too.

maidhc

pirelli wrote: »

For example if it takes a 75% of British ambulance take 8 minutes to arrive at a call and only 22% of irish ambulances make it to a call in that time.How do the irish fare in the legal service.
( stats and quote courtesy of RTE News)

Are you completely oblivious to the different population density in Ireland and the UK?

I would think Irish legal services are just as good as anywhere in the world, and the best thing is, if you are unhappy with your solicitor you can change at any time! (unlike your ambulance service....)

pirelli

maidhc wrote: »

Are you completely oblivious to the different population density in Ireland and the UK?

I would think Irish legal services are just as good as anywhere in the world, and the best thing is, if you are unhappy with your solicitor you can change at any time! (unlike your ambulance service....)

Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland have a low population density in the rural areas. It is also a much greater area to cover. There is a population density difference and Ireland has low pop density.

I am sure its a factor but could you really say that about any poor service in Ireland isn't poor and that it is because Ireland has a low population density. In any case they factored population density into the equation. They are not that fickle and would have taken a population sample to calculate time to service.

I will say one thing about Irish legal professionals they have no clue about statistics and in particular forensics and that would explain why we still have to go over to Britain to get our sums done for us by the forensic services abroad.

Why would you think the Irish legal services are as good as anywhere in the world


The law records themselves are quoted in the law journal that Irelands counsel/barristers were struggling and under performing with commercial law during the boom times which was a considerable embarrassment.

Is that really justified by population density to say the law library is miles from someone in Carlow, it probably is the reason but it isn't really an acceptable excuse.

Tom Young

pirelli wrote: »

The law records themselves are quoted in the law journal that Irelands counsel/barristers were struggling and under performing with commercial law during the boom times which was a considerable embarrassment.

Is that really justified by population density to say the law library is miles from someone in Carlow, it probably is the reason but it isn't really an acceptable excuse.

Can you describe and perhaps cite the law journals you mention please? You might also cite precisely where abouts in these journals this struggling or under-performing is evidenced?

There is a distinct difference between under-performing and struggling professionally.

The Law Library may well be miles away, located in Dublin or Cork. Practitioners work on all 8 Circuits not to even mention District Court work.

I assume the citations for the journals you mention and indeed the facts will back up your point.

Tom

nuac

Do not understand Pirelli's points. At times I wish I knew as little as Pirelli about the legal system and how lawyers work.

Lawyers may have some knowledge of statistics, but they do not have to be statisticians to serve their clients. Where necessary they consult appropriate specialists such as actuaries, forensic accountants, economists etc.

I do not know what forensic services Pirelli says have to be got from UK, but again legal practices do not supply such services in-house. In some cases one has to seek witnesses from outside the state e.g in medical negligence cases. This is because at the top level in any speciality in Ireland there are only a small number of people, many known to each other, and therefore reluctant to give evidence on a colleagues work.

As for the Law Library not being convenient to Carlow, this does not hinder access to barristers. We all use modern methods of communication. The point is that through use of the Bar Library the smallest and most remotely sited solicitors office in the country can contact in minutes one of the leading specialists in a particular field, and thus act on a client's problem. I am in the far west and never had a problem contacting a barrister in the Law Library or elsewhere over 30++ years practice.

pirelli

Tom Young wrote: »

Can you describe and perhaps cite the law journals you mention please? You might also cite precisely where abouts in these journals this struggling or under-performing is evidenced?

There is a distinct difference between under-performing and struggling professionally.

The Law Library may well be miles away, located in Dublin or Cork. Practitioners work on all 8 Circuits not to even mention District Court work.

I assume the citations for the journals you mention and indeed the facts will back up your point.

Tom

It would be helpful if I could remember the news print but i cannot although I am sure that one of our viewers do remember.I have checked the irish times search and cannot find it but I am not inventing this information. Be it poor or good journalism it was printed in the times law news and the industry never objected.

Has anyone any recollection of the newsprint about young counsel being not fully able to tackle commercial/corporate litigation in irish courts.

P.S
I have posed the question Tom about the differences between Irish legal profession and British legal professionals. In difficult litigation i would imagine the British have more experience and most likely a more education orientated approach to law rather than a pay your way to law such as the high fees required to train and become a barrister.

To train as a barrister will always involve a financial undertaking but in Britian
you might only have to pay as little as 11,000 euros where as in ireland you are facing some serious fees 300% higher. Also in Britian financial aid is provided and should you not get pupilage you can do a variety of work such as para legal.

As for the law libraries, i would estimate there are not many well stocked law library's in ireland and particularly when you factor in population density. If there is a greater material available to a british barrister and a greater emphasis on training and pupilage/marshalling than would the pay as you go barrister and or FE1 approved solicitor not be considered just a ready to go package.

pirelli

nuac wrote: »

Do not understand Pirelli's points. At times I wish I knew as little as Pirelli about the legal system and how lawyers work.

Lawyers may have some knowledge of statistics, but they do not have to be statisticians to serve their clients. Where necessary they consult appropriate specialists such as actuaries, forensic accountants, economists etc.

I do not know what forensic services Pirelli says have to be got from UK, but again legal practices do not supply such services in-house. In some cases one has to seek witnesses from outside the state e.g in medical negligence cases. This is because at the top level in any speciality in Ireland there are only a small number of people, many known to each other, and therefore reluctant to give evidence on a colleagues work.

As for the Law Library not being convenient to Carlow, this does not hinder access to barristers. We all use modern methods of communication. The point is that through use of the Bar Library the smallest and most remotely sited solicitors office in the country can contact in minutes one of the leading specialists in a particular field, and thus act on a client's problem. I am in the far west and never had a problem contacting a barrister in the Law Library or elsewhere over 30++ years practice.

I never professed to be a lawyer Nuac and unfortunately your quite right about the small number of people (many known to each other) and hence reluctant to give evidence .

Lol So we have a poor ambulance service because of population density and all of the barristers however are crammed into the law library in Dublin and such is the nature that ethical standards require committees from britain
so as no one in the big room in dublin tattles on the other. Sounds like a population density problem alright

Tom Young

pirelli wrote: »

It would be helpful if I could remember the news print but i cannot although I am sure that one of our viewers do remember.I have checked the irish times search and cannot find it but I am not inventing this information. Be it poor or good journalism it was printed in the times law news and the industry never objected.

Has anyone any recollection of the newsprint about young counsel being not fully able to tackle commercial/corporate litigation in irish courts.

P.S
I have posed the question Tom about the differences between Irish legal profession and British legal professionals. In difficult litigation i would imagine the British have more experience and most likely a more education orientated approach to law rather than a pay your way to law such as the high fees required to train and become a barrister.

To train as a barrister will always involve a financial undertaking but in Britian
you might only have to pay as little as 11,000 euros where as in ireland you are facing some serious fees 300% higher. Also in Britian financial aid is provided and should you not get pupilage you can do a variety of work such as para legal.

As for the law libraries, i would estimate there are not many well stocked law library's in ireland and particularly when you factor in population density. If there is a greater material available to a british barrister and a greater emphasis on training and pupilage/marshalling than would the pay as you go barrister and or FE1 approved solicitor not be considered just a ready to go package.

1. Don't believe everything you read in the newspapers. You've failed to back-up your initial point. Journalists write articles.

On Commercial litigation: It can be complex and does require a level of experience. This comes in various forms, and even PhD qualified lawyers can find the rigours of Commercial litigation a challenge.

2. UK and Irish litigation training is almost identical. So no, to that point and flatly so. You don't pay your way into the legal profession in this country either, so don't be misinformed.

3. 300% is wrong, 11K stg I think you'll find is more than the Inns fees for the academic/clinical program is currently set at 12K Euro. The work a non-practicing Barrister can do is vast, same as UK. Financial assistance is more then likely social welfare level, nothing more. Read the legal section of the UK Times, seeing as you like to use journalists views as your own.

4. Stocked libraries?! Are you having a laugh? Every new UK and Irish new law title is available. You just don't know. All Irish legal professionals have access to at very least the same if not better resources than the UK chambers. The libraries also get pretty much all the law reports going.

Please stop posting unless you're going to come up with something sensible.

pirelli

Maximilian wrote: »

Well correct me if I'm wrong but I think Irish firms have won international awards. I think MOP own some European firm of the year award once.

I don't know the value of such awards but I imagine they are quite highly regarded.

They won several awards and one i think was for their HR department but are now an international firm with offices in London and NewYork. I like the story behind Author Cox and how he became a priest that's a great story because he was a successful solicitor and had a family.

Your more likely to see joe soap the solicitor being awarded a hard slap on the wrist these days then you will for getting prestigious awards but hey at least they can find authority in other ways.

pirelli

Tom Young wrote: »

It can't be compared to ambulance timings really.

Tom

Well traditionally solicitors are ambulance chasers

nuac wrote: »

Can't see how Pirelli draws conclusions about legal practice in Ireland based on some survey of ambulance services.

In summary if it takes 78% longer for an ambulance to get to you in ireland the solicitor following behind will be 78% less efficent.

dats_right

pirelli wrote: »

Well traditionally solicitors are ambulance chasers

If I thought that was an attempt at humour it would almost be funny, but I suspect that is probably your flawed, inaccurate and uninformed preception.

pirelli wrote: »

In summary if it takes 78% longer for an ambulance to get to you in ireland the solicitor following behind will be 78% less efficent.

Perhaps that is another foolish and injudicious attempt at humour. But if that was meant as a serious point, well then there really is little point arguing with you, as you have illustrated an apparent lack of capacity to understand, interpret and apply some pretty basic statistics relating to ambulance response times in the UK. These statistics were reported in the Comptroller & Auditor General's recent Annual Report and were cited, as one would expect, in relation to the ambulance service in Dublin and in particular the relatively poorer average response times to emergency calls and the fact that there is two seperate providers of emergency ambulances in the capital. How on Earth you associate these statstics with the legal profession is quite frankly bizarre and lacking credibility.

Furthermore, it should be clear to you that most of the people that have taken the time to respond to you have a much deeper knowledge and experience of the legal profession and are thus better placed to offer their assesments and views than you, who have, at best, demonstrated a superficial knowledge of the profession in this jurisdiction and the UK. If your intention is to utter such ridiculous views as to irritate and annoy members of the legal profession; well I think you have probably suceeded. If not, and these views are seriously held, I respectfully suggest that you apply yourself to learning significantly more about the legal world before expressing such uninformed and dogmatic views.

Johnny Utah

pirelli wrote: »

In summary if it takes 78% longer for an ambulance to get to you in ireland the solicitor following behind will be 78% less efficent.

Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, pirelli........ Forty percent of all people know that.

Sangre

Tom Young wrote: »

4. Stocked libraries?! Are you having a laugh? Every new UK and Irish new law title is available. You just don't know. All Irish legal professionals have access to at very least the same if not better resources than the UK chambers. The libraries also get pretty much all the law reports going.

The UK have better online resources for journals, case law and legislation. Of course, obviously Irish lawyers will use these UK sources but I think Ireland are definitely behind in terms online Irish journals and online annotated legislation.

Tom Young

Sangre wrote: »

The UK have better online resources for journals, case law and legislation. Of course, obviously Irish lawyers will use these UK sources but I think Ireland are definitely behind in terms online Irish journals and online annotated legislation.

I guess I have to disagree because I use them most days, annotated legislation and up to date cases. Some administration issues with approving judgments alright, but minor in the grand scheme of things.

Justis, Firstlaw, Westlaw and Lexis are all available in Irish flavours.

Tom

pirelli

Tom Young wrote: »

I guess I have to disagree because I use them most days, annotated legislation and up to date cases. Some administration issues with approving judgments alright, but minor in the grand scheme of things.

Justis, Firstlaw, Westlaw and Lexis are all available in Irish flavours.

Tom

Firstlaw is 100% Irish is this the one you use TOM.

Tom Young

pirelli wrote: »

Firstlaw is 100% Irish is this the one you use Tom.

I use all of them however, they are no substitute for the texts.

maidhc

Tom Young wrote: »

I guess I have to disagree because I use them most days, annotated legislation and up to date cases. Some administration issues with approving judgments alright, but minor in the grand scheme of things.

Justis, Firstlaw, Westlaw and Lexis are all available in Irish flavours.

Tom

The access to secondary sources in Ireland is absolutely horrific... and I say this as the developer of www.legalperiodicals.org!

A lot of this lies at the feet of the publishers who have their particualar subscriptions to mind and to academics who really should embrace self publishing on a grander scale.

Even if people had the option to pay for a particular article they would, but in most cases the knowledge is simply not distributed and this makes everyone the poorer.