Ireland vs Springboks

Fishtits

These guys are the ultimate challenge, assuming they will send a decent team.

NH vs SH?

anonymous_joe

They'd win.

ALH-06

anonymous_joe wrote: »

They'd win.

They'd win? What does that mean? They will win?

I think you're in for a surprise.

anonymous_joe

ALH-06 wrote: »

They'd win? What does that mean? They will win?

I think you're in for a surprise.

It means that they're better than us.

Look, the thing is, Ireland are always going to struggle against the likes of the Boks.

Man for man, the teams are similar, but they edge us. And would win.

jayteecork

We just target Francois Steyn.

Besides his boot the guy is awful in every despartment - fielding, tackling, passing, running.

anonymous_joe

jayteecork wrote: »

We just target Francois Steyn.

Besides his boot the guy is awful in every despartment - fielding, tackling, passing, running.

That's not true.

funky penguin

**** it, I think we're gonna win, 1st or 2nd team. In this case, belief in ourselves will go a long way.

anonymous_joe

funky penguin wrote: »

**** it, I think we're gonna win, 1st or 2nd team. In this case, belief in ourselves will go a long way.

I don't think we're certain to lose. Quite the opposite.

I think though, taht if you're realistic, the Springboks are more likely to win. Though we have a chance.

OldJay

Fishtits wrote: »

These guys are the ultimate challenge, assuming they will send a decent team

They're going for a grand slam tour so yes, they'll have a strong squad and will be well up for the win.

Fishtits wrote: »

NH vs SH?

No. Ireland v South Africa.
There's no such thing as "NH v SH". Its a convenient term for tribalists who perceive an imaginary set of national teams in league with each other.
No team does anything for their respective hemisphere. Its all for themselves and their country.

emergingstar

sf to win and do it comfortably

Brolly

Obviously, with South Africa being no. 1 in the World, they are favourites to win. However, I think Ireland will have the measure of them on this occasion. Australia had a comfortable win over SA last week - its shows that they are beatable. A lot of the Irish guys have played against SA in the recent Lions tour and I'm sure they have familiarised themselves with SA's style of play etc. I'd wager a bet on Ireland for this one!

chupacabra

Ireland will hammer them by a country mile and ill be there to see it.

sweetie

when is it?

Blut

Saturday the 28th of November. SA will win handily I'd wager, by 10pts when/if I'm betting. Ireland's Grand Slam this year was against fairly awful English and French teams, it probably made us look a lot better than we actually are.

NITFBY

Cant see us beating South Africa to be honest. Think we can give them a game but still go down by about 12 points..

LeeroyJones

Blut wrote: »

Saturday the 28th of November. SA will win handily I'd wager, by 10pts when/if I'm betting. Ireland's Grand Slam this year was against fairly awful English and French teams, it probably made us look a lot better than we actually are.

Thats a bit unfair. Whatever about that terrible England match, France played very well against us and also its no easy feat to beat defending Grand Slam champions on their own soil in a decider. When you take that and the fact that we had 2 of the H Cup semi-finalists inc the champions. also considering the fact that Munster and Leinster's 22 had the most home-grown players than any of the other European quater-finalists. Ireland are worthy Grand Slam holders. The notion of it being a weak year is just a bitter one held by a very small section of the media cross-channel, most however acknowledge our achievments.

The Southern Hemisphere as ever is stronger than up North and we're no world-beaters but we do have what it takes to beat SA, but I wouldn't put my mortgage on it!

Chucky the tree

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Thats a bit unfair. Whatever about that terrible England match, France played very well against us and also its no easy feat to beat defending Grand Slam champions on their own soil in a decider. When you take that and the fact that we had 2 of the H Cup semi-finalists inc the champions. also considering the fact that Munster and Leinster's 22 had the most home-grown players than any of the other European quater-finalists. Ireland are worthy Grand Slam holders. The notion of it being a weak year is just a bitter one held by a very small section of the media cross-channel, most however acknowledge our achievments.

The Southern Hemisphere as ever is stronger than up North and we're no world-beaters but we do have what it takes to beat SA, but I wouldn't put my mortgage on it!

Most Rugby fans agreed it's was a very weak 6 nations, even Irish ones. Clutching at staws to claim otherwise imo. It's still a great achievement to win the GS as I don't think even Ireland were as good as they were in previous championships were they narrowly missed out.

irishbucsfan

It may not have been the strongest 6 nations, thats true. But if we'd lost to the French they would have been far better. They had a lot less to play for after we beat them, and they were excellent against us. 2 of the 5 teams we beat this year were absolute class; the Welsh team is better than it was when it won the Grand Slam, the French team would have been GS contenders if they'd managed to beat us.

My World top 8 right now would be:
1. SA (Unbelievably good)
2. Ireland
3. NZ (Been quite poor in some recent performances, but they're the ABs and they could beat anyone on their day. Some would put them above Ireland but I think they've hit a low right now. They'll be back to their best by 2011 no doubt)
4. France (Starting to field a very strong team, I'd say that if they can find form next February they could win the GS)
5. Wales (They have a great team right now, some contenders for World XV like Roberts, Williams, Byrne, Jenkins)
6. Australia (They have a team right now which will be great in a few years, but they've looked extremely shaky this year. Some of the changes Deans is making will stick like Genia at 9 and in the front row. I think they'll be among the best at World Cup '11)
7. Argentina (Bastards! But I love them)
8. England (They do have some quality. Forwards are terrible compared to past English teams, really brings them down. Their backs have great potential though)

NickNolte

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Most Rugby fans agreed it's was a very weak 6 nations

It wasn't.

bamboozle

jayteecork wrote: »

We just target Francois Steyn.

Besides his boot the guy is awful in every despartment - fielding, tackling, passing, running.

agreed, although cant comment on his passing as any game i've watched him in he does only 3 things, drop goal attempt, long kick, or run into contact, never seen him pass.

all 3 SH teams seemed to be extremely weak under garryowens

although i think he's signed on with Racing Paris, PdeV will be with Munster so SA will be a bit weaker than they are now.
looking forward to seeing Ferris put manners on Burger

r0nanf

No doubt they're the best team in the world right now, however I see them on a similar trajectory to England post world cup - PdeV is a poor coach with tons of talent, and their game is getting narrower and narrower. The only way Habana or Pieterson ever get the ball is either by fielding an opposing teams kick or by coming in off the wing in a completely orchestrated move. The ball doesn't go past 10 in phase play anymore. They're a one/two phase team that happen to have two of the best kicking 9s and 10s around. Don't get me wrong, they are very, very good at their game but they need to develop other facets to their game.

I would contend too that they're getting cockier and cockier, and its natural for a team to start to either believe their own hype or start to feel entitled. Agreed F Steyn is more a liability, his scoring ratio is poor as he tries far too many DGs in the game. I don't know if we have enough to beat them but I reckon it'll be a massive game. Bring on Sexton!

Chucky the tree

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It may not have been the strongest 6 nations, thats true. But if we'd lost to the French they would have been far better. They had a lot less to play for after we beat them, and they were excellent against us. 2 of the 5 teams we beat this year were absolute class; the Welsh team is better than it was when it won the Grand Slam, the French team would have been GS contenders if they'd managed to beat us.

I don't see how you can think the Welsh team is better then the GS team. Their capatain Ryan jones couldn't even make it a Lions tour this year because of his power performances, if the lions tour was in 08 he'd of been nailed on. Powell was a shadow of his former self and Shane williams went from IRB player of the year to being lucky to get his place on the plane to SA. England representation on the Lions tours sums them up. 6 of their 22 man squad who we beat made it to SA, that's shocking number for England. Scotland and Italy we're as expected, still nearly made a meal of the Scottish match though.

NickNolte wrote: »

It wasn't.

Well that's shown me.:rolleyes:

danthefan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Powell was a shadow of his former self

Agree with most of your post, but what? When was this 'former self' business?

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

Agree with most of your post, but what? When was this 'former self' business?

When Rush got injured and Powell suddenly appeared from nowhere he looked like one of the best forwards around, made huge yards and attracted alot of defenders and managed to offload more then any other player on the pitch. I know everyone likes to take a dig at him but he WAS good.

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

When Rush got injured and Powell suddenly appeared from nowhere he looked like one of the best forwards around, made huge yards and attracted alot of defenders and managed to offload more then any other player on the pitch. I know everyone likes to take a dig at him but he WAS good.

Yes, last season. He'd done basically nothing before last season, which is my point.

Chucky the tree

danthefan wrote: »

Agree with most of your post, but what? When was this 'former self' business?

:pac: Fair enough slight exaggeration on my part. But he definitely reached a new level of ****ness this year. I think before the 6nations and even before the Lions tour the number 8 spot was a close fight between Heaslip and Powell. Maybe it just took awhile for teams to get used to his style or when R. Jones form dipped it had a knock on effect on Powell who was now expected to do a bit of work rather then the fancy running. At the start of 09 I would of had him down as the starting number 8. He was good at the beginning of 2008, his form just constantly went down from the start of the 09 6nations.

anonymous_joe

He was decent about five years ago or so wasn't he?

There's teh whole Zinzan Brooke tipping him to be best in the world, etc.

chimchimney

among SA's main strengths are their strength at the breakdown, their lineout (esp defensively) and as mentioned above their kick-and-chase game which is based on having some great kickers and speedy chasers. as well as this they have some serious leaders in the team in Smit, Du Plessis, Matlock, and Du Preez.

If Irelands heads are in the game I reckon we can match them up front. Kearney can handle their bombs, as can Bowe and the rest of them i reckon. But our lineout might be under pressure (esp if there is an injury to either flannery or the forklift JH).

It seems the saffies weaknesses are their defence in the centres (i think this may be down to Fourie rather than JdV, eg Ashley-Coopers try (7:10) ), and in spite of them winning a few against NZ on saturday there remain questions over their scrum.

Weakness in the scrum or not we dont have the front row to take advantage of it. looking forward to seeing drico and bowe taking pops at them out wide but without jamie roberts it may not be as easy for drico to find the gaps.

i was surprised that a team with such a class lineout such as SA failed to take advantage of the reintroduction of the rolling maul, an area where with plenty of practice in the H Cup etc we might be able to get an edge over them.

yes they have weaknesses and can be beaten but i reckon 60:40 in favour of SA.

Size=everything

chimchimney wrote: »

among SA's main strengths are their strength at the breakdown, their lineout (esp defensively) and as mentioned above their kick-and-chase game which is based on having some great kickers and speedy chasers. as well as this they have some serious leaders in the team in Smit, Du Plessis, Matlock, and Du Preez.

If Irelands heads are in the game I reckon we can match them up front. Kearney can handle their bombs, as can Bowe and the rest of them i reckon. But our lineout might be under pressure (esp if there is an injury to either flannery or the forklift JH).

It seems the saffies weaknesses are their defence in the centres (i think this may be down to Fourie rather than JdV, eg Ashley-Coopers try (7:10) ), and in spite of them winning a few against NZ on saturday there remain questions over their scrum.

Weakness in the scrum or not we dont have the front row to take advantage of it. looking forward to seeing drico and bowe taking pops at them out wide but without jamie roberts it may not be as easy for drico to find the gaps.

i was surprised that a team with such a class lineout such as SA failed to take advantage of the reintroduction of the rolling maul, an area where with plenty of practice in the H Cup etc we might be able to get an edge over them.

yes they have weaknesses and can be beaten but i reckon 60:40 in favour of SA.

Excellent first post

il gatto

Until we get the season properly under way, I think it's too early to predict anything. We still have to see the form of players after their break and especially the likes of Ferris, O'Leary and and Flannery, all of which would be vital to any thought of victory imo.
The Springboks are rightfully number one at the moment, but it's not unheard of for No.4 to beat No.1. They have weaknesses and losing JdV in the center leaves them a bit weaker. As long as we don't let them steamroll us, Ireland have the firepower to score a couple of tries. It's important that we pick a tough pack to make sure we have a platform for the likes of BOD, Kearney, Fitz, Earls etc. to do something. I'd like to see David Wallace, Ferris and Healip firing for their provinces, with Neil Best and Sean O'Brien waiting in the wings. Hopefully POC and DOC will be in top form too and maybe put some pressure on their lineout. I think gaining parity in the scrum is all we can expect. The Boks aren't fantastic, but have a lot of beef up front.
It's too early to tell, but an astute coach like Kidney, our players in top form and hopefully a slightly weakened SA with a coach liable to try something stupid and who knows?

bamboozle

il gatto wrote: »

Until we get the season properly under way, I think it's too early to predict anything. We still have to see the form of players after their break and especially the likes of Ferris, O'Leary and and Flannery, all of which would be vital to any thought of victory imo.
The Springboks are rightfully number one at the moment, but it's not unheard of for No.4 to beat No.1. They have weaknesses and losing JdV in the center leaves them a bit weaker. As long as we don't let them steamroll us, Ireland have the firepower to score a couple of tries. It's important that we pick a tough pack to make sure we have a platform for the likes of BOD, Kearney, Fitz, Earls etc. to do something. I'd like to see David Wallace, Ferris and Healip firing for their provinces, with Neil Best and Sean O'Brien waiting in the wings. Hopefully POC and DOC will be in top form too and maybe put some pressure on their lineout. I think gaining parity in the scrum is all we can expect. The Boks aren't fantastic, but have a lot of beef up front.
It's too early to tell, but an astute coach like Kidney, our players in top form and hopefully a slightly weakened SA with a coach liable to try something stupid and who knows?

we need to;
bombard their back 3 with highballs
attack the line out, something the Lions never did
and most importantly manic agression at the breakdown

most importantly we need to ensure Burger gets a fully deserved 'reception' from our pack on the pitch.

il gatto

bamboozle wrote: »

we need to;
bombard their back 3 with highballs
attack the line out, something the Lions never did
and most importantly manic agression at the breakdown

most importantly we need to ensure Burger gets a fully deserved 'reception' from our pack on the pitch.

My thoughts exactly. Not sure where we could get Neil Best in there, but if he continues the form he showed at the end of last season for Northampton and in the Churchill Cup, he has to be considered. If Ferris isn't back to his previous form, Neil Best could be the perfect player to fill the blindside.
I thought the Boks kicking was poor all year with a few exceptions, but at the same time, we'd need to make sure we don't kick too much ball to Pieterson and Habana when our defence isn't organised as I think that's nearly the only time their wingers get the ball. Their gameplan is pretty narrow and it reminds me of England circa 2003.

PhatPiggins

bamboozle wrote: »

we need to;
bombard their back 3 with highballs
attack the line out, something the Lions never did
and most importantly manic agression at the breakdown
quote]

While agree with you you've pretty much described the SA gameplan to a tee and there is no one even close to them at executing it.

little173

I agree with some of the comments re: SA and their kicking game. They have really moved on from the lions series though, above all their pack is unbelievably physical. Their front 5 tend to squeeze the life out of teams, force errors and make the set pieces very uncomfortable for the opposition, gaining valuable territorial advantage. See what their scrum did to the AB's in the last 10 on Saturday. Smit, Matfield and Botha are seriously good players.

Added to that, Pierre Spies is a completely different player now, he makes great yards off the back of the scrum, even vs McCaw and is very dangerous in open play. To this end, their backs dont need to be that special, their midfield defence will be weaker without JDV and it is right to say that Habana is largely used off his wing in midfield or if the kick chase is too sloppy he will punish the opposition.

Another interesting thing will be our beginning season vs their end. Will they be tired? vs us being rusty?.

OldJay

little173 wrote: »

Another interesting thing will be our beginning season vs their end. Will they be tired? vs us being rusty?.

They will be rested, fresh and well up for it. They're going for a slam tour after all.
This year the November tests are being played by an Ireland team in different circumstances to last year's. The camp is a familiar place for management and players alike with a Grand Slam 6N and in some cases, a Lions tour for the players.

tommy57

The Irish are great we win the 6 nations then we say it was the weakest over the last few years, so it downsizes the acheivement. we will beat south africa at least the players will have the belief even though some fans d,ont.Thats why the likes of South africa, New zealand, and the aussies are good because they believe they w,ont be beaten. The Irish are to good at putting themselves down.

OldJay

tommy57 wrote: »

The Irish are to good at putting themselves down.

The team and management aren't putting themselves down and thats all that matters really.

anonymous_joe

tommy57 wrote: »

The Irish are great we win the 6 nations then we say it was the weakest over the last few years, so it downsizes the acheivement. we will beat south africa at least the players will have the belief even though some fans d,ont.Thats why the likes of South africa, New zealand, and the aussies are good because they believe they w,ont be beaten. The Irish are to good at putting themselves down.

Interesting take on the national psyche, and not that far off.

I do think in some ways it was a weakened tournament, but you can only play what's in front of you.

In all honesty, I think South Africa will beat us. Not by much, and certainly not without effort. I do think Ireland can win, but South Africa are a better team by and large. Moreover, while we do have a 'winning' mentality, we're definitely not as clinical as the Boks.

Also, we do play a similar-ish style to them, in terms of a narrow, kick-heavy game which gives free reign to a fairly powerful pack. That's certainly an area in which they'd definitely have an advantage over us. Again though, if they bring a weak team, or our lads just have an exceptional day, they could be turned over.