Athletes Gender

lostexpectation

http://www.thetimes.co.za/Sport/Article.aspx?id=1063841

Sydney Morning Herald: Tests show Semenya has no ovaries but has internal male testes which are producing large amounts of testosterone.

but the rule still is if she were always treated as women she can run as women...

dna_leri

For some more balanced views of this issue try:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

Condo131

IAAF Statement

"Monte-Carlo - The IAAF has noted statements in recent media articles regarding the athlete Caster Semenya of South Africa.

We would like to emphasise that these should not be considered as official statements by the IAAF.

We can officially confirm that gender verification test results will be examined by a group of medical experts. NO decision on the case will be communicated until the IAAF has had the opportunity to complete this examination. We do not expect to make a final decision on this case before the next meeting of the IAAF Council which takes place in Monaco on November 20-21.

Please note that there will be no further comments from the IAAF on Caster Semenya until that time.
IAAF"

ChickenTikka

From today's Irish Indo:-
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/caster-semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show-1884146.html

A gender test on South African teenager Caster Semenya has revealed that she is a hermaphrodite, threatening to end her track career just weeks after her runaway 800 metres triumph in last month's World Championships in Berlin.

The tests carried out on the 18 year-old shortly after her victory in Berlin are believed to have shown that she has a chromosomal abnormality that gives her both male and female characteristics.

According to reports in the Australian media, the medical tests have established that she has no womb or ovaries and that she also has internal testes – the male sexual organs responsible for producing testosterone.

Earlier analysis had revealed that Semenya's testosterone levels were three times the normal level for a woman.

The International Association of Athletics Federations received the results of Semenya's 'gender verification test' this week, but it has refused to confirm the findings until they have been verified by a panel of independent scientific experts and the athlete has been personally informed.

But Pierre Weiss, the IAAF secretary general, hinted strongly at the results on Thursday when he said: "It is clear that she is a woman, but maybe not 100 per cent. We have to see if she has an advantage from her possibly being between two sexes compared to the others."

The IAAF will now have to decide whether to strip the teenager of the gold medal she won in Berlin.

The likelihood is that Semenya will be allowed to keep the medal, but she looks certain to be disqualified from competing in future women's races.

© Telegraph.co.uk

shels4ever

This one is going to be impossible to decide on I think, I really feel for the girl now.

From my understand of what they are saying she has some cells that are XX, while others cells are XY as apposed to the usuall XX or XY.

I don't know how anyone can make a call on this issue.

ss43

ChickenTikka wrote: »

From today's Irish Indo:-
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/caster-semenya-is-a-hermaphrodite-tests-show-1884146.html

...The likelihood is that Semenya will be allowed to keep the medal, but she looks certain to be disqualified from competing in future women's races.

© Telegraph.co.uk

I don't understand this. If they find she isn't female (by their definition) then surely they have to disqualify her from the World's. If she is not female and therefore was not eligible to compete in the race then Janeth Jepkosgei has to be awarded the gold as the first to finish of legitimate competitors.

I read somewhere that she could be advised to get surgery (for health reasons) and that after it she may be eligible to compete again. Not sure whether the surgery was to remove the <snip> testes or what.

Racing Flat

ss43 wrote: »

I don't understand this. If they find she isn't female (by their definition) then surely they have to disqualify her from the World's. If she is not female and therefore was not eligible to compete in the race then Janeth Jepkosgei has to be awarded the gold as the first to finish of legitimate competitors.

I read somewhere that she could be advised to get surgery (for health reasons) and that after it she may be eligible to compete again. Not sure whether the surgery was to remove the testes or what.

It's not just a genetic issue though - environmental factors have high standing in these issues. So even if you were born completely XY but were brought up as a woman as that's what your parents wanted (as happens on some Polynesian islands I think) you may be elligible to compete as a woman.

meathcountysec

At the end of the day the issue will turn on whether she?, by virtue of her? physical makeup has an unfair advantage over other competitors e.g. the higher levels of testosterone. Similar to the male dual amputee who was deemed to have an unfair advantage over other male sprinters.

lostexpectation

is her career over? will other atheletes want to run against her?

RacoonQueen

Thus was always going to be the most likely result of the gender tests. There's a lot more to it than her just being male or female though, if she has been raised as a girl and has always been treated as a girl then she is one. Would it be fair to make her compete as a man? When she isn't a man either? Difficult situation for the IAAF I hope they make the right decision, whatever that is. My worry would be for her now south Africa is still a bit behind in the tomes and her being trans gender may not be deemed acceptable, and god knows what sort of effect this is all having on her.

RealistSpy

Poor girl, this is a horrible thing to go through at this age.

JKF

I really, really feel for the girl. What a dreadful situation to be put in and at her age too. Sadly, I can't see it being resolved easily without people getting hurt. I'd be very surprised if she does return to competition and if she does all the more power to her. I personally wouldn't be able to: if you think about it its probably the most offensive thing you could suggest to a woman or a man for that matter!

RacoonQueen wrote: »

My worry would be for her now south Africa is still a bit behind in the tomes and her being trans gender may not be deemed acceptable, and god knows what sort of effect this is all having on her.

Ironically, SA has a very good LGBT record. I *think*(correct me if I'm wrong) the post-apartheid constitution was the first in the world to criminalise discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and gay marriage has been legal there for the past number of years so I don't think this should be a problem. Although, of course, there'll always people who will make an issue of it

911sc

All these things should have been checked out before she/he was allowed to compete, not after.
She/he was allowed to compete in 800m female, and she/he won, hence she got a gold.

Condo131

911sc wrote: »

All these things should have been checked out before she/he was allowed to compete, not after.
She/he was allowed to compete in 800m female, and she/he won, hence she got a gold.

Ah c'mon. Are you suggesting that anyone (female) who *looks* like a guy or, for that matter, a guy like a woman, need to be checked out by the gender police? Where do we stop? Is it just particular people or everyone?

On the general issue, this matter has been handled disasterously. Somewhere along the line, there has been a massive breach of confidentiality (reportedly by one particular country). If Caster Semenya had been tested for illegal drugs, the details would not have been made public until after a failure and she would then still have the benefit of a B sample.

In this case, the IAAF has still not made a determination, and will not do so until November. They have stated that she will NOT be stripped of the medal.

Can you imagine what her psychological stae must be now? She has NOT yet been *condemned* as being too masculine (though some posters here - and some media elements - would seem to think otherwise. Lets wait and see what way the IAAF rule before any of us condemn her. I suggest giving the matter a rest until , at least, the IAAF ruling.

rainbow kirby

JKF wrote: »

Ironically, SA has a very good LGBT record. I *think*(correct me if I'm wrong) the post-apartheid constitution was the first in the world to criminalise discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation and gay marriage has been legal there for the past number of years so I don't think this should be a problem. Although, of course, there'll always people who will make an issue of it

In law South Africa has an excellent recent record on LGBT rights, but in practice it's still an incredibly homophobic society.

quiche

911sc wrote: »

All these things should have been checked out before she/he was allowed to compete, not after.
She/he was allowed to compete in 800m female, and she/he won, hence she got a gold.

The IAAF urged the south african federation to withdraw her and they refused, allowing her to run in the final. This whole situation has blown up in the south africans federation faces. I feel really sorry for the poor girl, but she has been manipulated by her federation who are now threatening 'war' and calling everyone under the sun a racist.

Anyone who has a seven second improvement in a year is going to come under incredible scrutiny because it just does not happen at the top level. Her federation should have known that apart from anything else this improvement would have brought the spotlight on (which it did which is why the initial tests showing the testosterone level were ordered in the first place), which should have been reason enough to take a breath and step back and withdraw, rather than plow on ahead.

d11gunner

...

benrichards

<snip>

--amadeus--

This is one of teh biggest stories in sport and is being widely covered in teh "respectable" media. That's why it's open here for discussion.

But there is an 18 year old - a real person - at the centre of this and they have just had some devastating personal news.

*Any* homophobia, any personal attacks or muppetry gets a 1 month ban. It has no place in a sports forum.

Condo131

--amadeus-- wrote: »

But there is an 18 year old - a real person - at the centre of this and they have just had some devastating personal news.

Hear, Hear!!

Max Power1

does anyone else find it a bit, odd, that an anagram of Caster Semenya is "Yes a secret man"

On topic: How can someone who is clearly male at least in part, has been shown to have male but not female reproductive organs (has been documeted that (s)he has semi-functioning testes but no ovaries) not be disqualified from entering female only competition. The mind boggles

shels4ever

Max Power1 wrote: »

does anyone else find it a bit, odd, that an anagram of Caster Semenya is "Yes a secret man"

On topic: How can someone who is clearly male at least in part, has been shown to have male but not female reproductive organs (has been documeted that (s)he has semi-functioning testes but no ovaries) not be disqualified from entering female only competition. The mind boggles

She is more women then man, just because she has semi-functioning testes doesnt mean she is a man. There are genetic + environmental factors (read RF's pst above)that need to be taken into account and the genetic side is only part of it. She is more women then man, and clearly not male.

scottreynolds

This is obviously a scientific issue here. The fact that the South African Athletics Federation (it thats what its called) let her run could have simply believed that there was no cause for withdrawl.

In any sport, we can't condem someone until they are proven in violation of the ruiles. The real issue with this case is that this girl at the center of the issue has done nothing wrong.

I'm interested to see how this pans out scientifically as we may need to start testing everyone to see what an acceptable of XY or X or Y there is...

--amadeus--

scottreynolds wrote: »

I'm interested to see how this pans out scientifically as we may need to start testing everyone to see what an acceptable of XY or X or Y there is...

Hard to legislate for the 1 in a billion case like this one. This kind of case is medically very, very rare and the chances of it happening to someone who is also athletically gifted is vanishingly small.

Max - please be respectful...

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Hard to legislate for the 1 in a billion case like this one. This kind of case is medically very, very rare and the chances of it happening to someone who is also athletically gifted is vanishingly small.

Max - please be respectful...

Intersex issues are not that rare, 1 in 2500 people have an intersex condition - albeit they vary from this case all the way down to one that you can go through life with and not notice.

ChickenTikka

dna_leri wrote: »

For some more balanced views of this issue try:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

People should acquaint themselves with the articles on above website on this. The authors seem to know what they are talking about.

I agree with posters that its a calamity for the athlete herself.

The way its been handled by the athletics federations is a disgrace. In my opinion, its not the IAAF that is primarily at fault, its the South African federation. Given the improvement curve shown by Semenya and given the rumours regarding her sex, they should have made 100% sure of her eligibility to participate long before Berlin. As I understand it, she has been representing SA for a number of years at youth level. The SA federation should have made certain that all was in order last year or the year before. They have shown complete disregard for the athlete in the interest of national success. The leaks from the IAAF medical reports are a scandal too - but the issue would never have arisen if the SA federation had carried out all required tests a few years ago.

shels4ever

ChickenTikka wrote: »

People should acquaint themselves with the articles on above website on this. The authors seem to know what they are talking about.

I agree with posters that its a calamity for the athlete herself.

The way its been handled by the athletics federations is a disgrace. In my opinion, its not the IAAF that is primarily at fault, its the South African federation. Given the improvement curve shown by Semenya and given the rumours regarding her sex, they should have made 100% sure of her eligibility to participate long before Berlin. As I understand it, she has been representing SA for a number of years at youth level. The SA federation should have made certain that all was in order last year or the year before. They have shown complete disregard for the athlete in the interest of national success. The leaks from the IAAF medical reports are a scandal too - but the issue would never have arisen if the SA federation had carried out all required tests a few years ago.

I don't know if i agree with that, there was no reason for the test before and it wasnt as if she was hiding anything, the improvment were big and even if the tests were done she may have been able to compete. What ever the outcome is some people are going to be upset and disagree with what ever findings are made.

dna_leri

shels4ever wrote: »

I don't know if i agree with that, there was no reason for the test before and it wasnt as if she was hiding anything, the improvment were big and even if the tests were done she may have been able to compete. What ever the outcome is some people are going to be upset and disagree with what ever findings are made.

Maybe its not "a few years" but there was opportunity for ASA (Athletics South Africa) to forsee this controversy and act decisively to prevent it. The first international warning signal was last year when Caster improved her time from 2:11.98 in the world juniors to 2:04.23 in the Commonwealth juniors and certainly they should have acted when this improved again in July this year to 1:56.72 at the african juniors. However it does seem the ASA were more concerned with a world medal than the individual. Even ASA's performance manager Wilfrid Daniels resigned based on his disatisfaction with the handling of the process.

It is interesting that the IAAF have said that this was the 8th case of its kind since 2005 and that "four athletes were asked to stop their career". What makes this interesting is that none of these cases are widely known and are not being discussed on the internet because they were properly managed, confidentially with due concern for the individual.

It would have been in Semenya's interest for her not to have competed in the world championships and that call should have been made by ASA. Even now if the South African sports authorities really had her interests at heart, they would stop threatening WW3 and not comment on this publicly until all results are complete and Semenya has been informed.

TFBubendorfer

dna_leri wrote: »

It is interesting that the IAAF have said that this was the 8th case of its kind since 2005 and that "four athletes were asked to stop their career". What makes this interesting is that none of these cases are widely known and are not being discussed on the internet because they were properly managed, confidentially with due concern for the individual.

To be fair, the main reason why these 4 cases are not widely known is because they didn't happen to a gold medal winner in the world's championship. As soon as she was allowed to run in Berlin the case was always going to be high profile.

dna_leri

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

To be fair, the main reason why these 4 cases are not widely known is because they didn't happen to a gold medal winner in the world's championship.

Because these cases were better handled, most of us do not know who they were or what they won... maybe they were world champions...

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

As soon as she was allowed to run in Berlin the case was always going to be high profile.

And that's the point... it should not have got to this stage and the issue of whether a junior athlete from Africa has an intergender condition would not have been a subject of our discussion.

911sc

911sc wrote: »

All these things should have been checked out before she/he was allowed to compete, not after.
She/he was allowed to compete in 800m female, and she/he won, hence she got a gold.

Condo131 wrote: »

Ah c'mon. Are you suggesting that anyone (female) who *looks* like a guy or, for that matter, a guy like a woman, need to be checked out by the gender police? Where do we stop? Is it just particular people or everyone?

What i was suggesting is that, if checks have to be done on athletes based on whatever criteria a federation deems resonnable, they should be done prior to the race and outside media attention.

Condo131

911sc wrote: »

What i was suggesting is that, if checks have to be done on athletes based on whatever criteria a federation deems resonnable, they should be done prior to the race and outside media attention.

OK, I understand that, but my point was: how do you decide who should be tested? Do you test everyone? Or does someone decide "You look too masculine/femenine." Probably, in all likelihood. However, imho, that's too subjective.

Hard Worker

Unless the rules change, people cannot be gender tested at random, so therefore, it doesn't matter what you look like.
In the Semenya case, the test was carried out by the IAAF with discretion. It would appear that someone, possibly from the country that put in the challenge, spilled the beans to the media.