Lisbon... I' m italian, sorry if I give my advice even if I' m not called to vote,but

Iloveyouitaly

Irish people, a pray from Italy about your Referendum.

I come on your board to read about impressions and opinions from Irish people about the Referendum, ad I thought to give my two cents of opinion.
I' m Italian.
I beg you for express my pain and my opinion because as all you know Italian people couldn' t have an opinion on Lisbon treaty.
Once the last year you have defended ALL the citizens of Europe with your NO.
Europe, I said, NOT UE... not THAT UE... made only by bankers and lobbies with their own profit as only interest... when I think to Europe I think to all the free people in every country, people with their proper rights, Germans, Italians, Frenches, Spanishes, Englishes, Danishes, Irishes, Portugueses, Swedishes, Belgians, Dutches, Finnishes, Bulgarians, Polishes, Czeches, Greeks, Austrians, and all the others I admit not remember now... PEOPLE and CITIZENS, CITIZENS and NATIONS of CITIZENS with democratic national souvereignity.
Not the UberStaat with unlimited powers on citizens which are only servants described by philosophical doctrines of Hegel.
You have a great opportunity.
To vote again and make falling down Lisbon Treaty definetely.
If you remark your NO, the Treaty will be abandoned.
In Germany the Bundestaag has suspended the ratification because Lisbon Treaty is against their Constitution, and they want to modify the Chart BEFORE ratifying, not AFTER.
You can VOTE.
Your politicians let you VOTE.
This is a chance in Italy we haven't had.
People in Italy weren't informed about the ratification of Lisbon Treaty, in Parliament they subscribed the Treaty as if we were nothing, only servants who pay taxes and live in growing economic difficulties with no need to know about the European Constitution which would have to lead us all. But when there is need of soldiers, are the poor people who must sacrifice themselves. When are requested financial efforts are the poor people who are taxed, and their social assets to be cut, like sanity, school... they don' t give us the possibility to express, but they want all the loyalty from us.
This is not democracy.
Recently, Minister Tremonti has accused 16 Italian economists to be non- competent because they have not predict the world financial crisis. They have answered him ' How could we predict a crisis which is by legitimation of politic powers?'
It is a great accuse not only to Tremonti, but to all the world, beginning from America and Europe.
Now Obama want to save the private bank Federal Reserve which is owned by few powerful families with no debts, and he will solve this problem with American people' s money, cutting the social benefits.
Lisbon Treaty is a product of the same elites.
This is not democracy.
Here, only a little group of politicians has warned Italy claiming Lisbon Treaty like a conjure against the Nation.
None of our politicians has called Italian Nation to vote in a free Referendum to express our judgment on the reglements made by some bankers regardless of human rights.
None has informed Italians, nor the Governement, nor the newspaper, about the risks, and a lot of people don' t know what the Treaty is and how dangerous; neither the major part of Italians know Lisbon Treaty violates at least two main articles in Italian Constitution, the lifeguard of human life first, and the fact that Italy is against war for second; plus other minor articles, changing the rules of what a citizen believes to be in his own right, and I think that if this happens to Italy, is not strange to think this could happen to other Constitutions of other countries.
A lot of Italians neither know such a chart was signed, or exists ( ! ), if you ask to people here, because all about that was silenced.
Only in one italian forum I found this statement: ' Today, with Lisbon treaty, Italy has finished to exist.'
Yes, as Metternich in 1800 said, we are reduced by Lisbon treaty only to a ' pure geographic expression'.
Don' t loose your identity as at Italy happened in a complete blind climate.
No protests. No chorus of indignacy.
Of course: we didn' t know.
If a chart is regular, why not to talk of it to people? Why to keep it secret to citizens, ( as his ideologue Jean Monet has suggested to UE Parliament ), without asking opinions, as in France, German, UK, Italy, Spain, East Europe etc. the Governements have done?
You have some good respectful deputees if you are called to vote.
Everyone in the world knows Italians' delicate situation, but I don' t think Frenches or Germans or others are better with this Damocle' s sword on the national souveregnity' s head.
I don' t think european citizens need a Europe like that described in Lisbon Treaty.
You all have a great chance we were deprived. Spoiled.
Here in Italy they haven' t let us to do a civil Referendum because all they knew that people would have rejected a laws' chart which is pro militarization, pro destitution of national rights in favour of an Uberstaat, pro capital death, pro liberalized fees, and that means very low paid job.
You can choose, even for us.
Referendum in France and Netherlands in 2005 had said 'no', but in 2008 french and german politicians has signed the Treaty in total refusal of the popular wisdom, so the Frenches and the Dutches have remained without words. It was a sopruse, in the same manner as Italians weren' t convocated to vote.
Don' t believe to such benefits from UE, because Italy has agreed TOTALLY to UE, and now we are here with disoccupation, precarious job, and families who aren't able to pay taxes and see their house to be pignorated. We cry on our beloved lira. Poorty grows here.
Young licensed people has no secure job.
Lisbon Treaty will permit to industries to take in a country low- paid workers from other more poor europeans countries like for example Romania or Poland, applying not the payment criteria of the country the worker searches for job, but the criteria of the country the worker belongs to.
If an industry can take a lower- paid worker than me, why giving me job?
And also: is it right to exploit in this way a person who leaves his own contry to search job elsewhere, exploit him in a foreign country paying him the same fee he has in his own, but makes him suffering outside because the way of life is more expensive in the country he' s working for?
Think to this.
Please, don' t trust who' s saying Ireland will remain alone in Europe without the 'yes'.
Simply there won't be such a dictatorial Europe, and they will have to take in consideration that popular wisdom something still counts.
I couldn' t vote for my nation' s freedom, for my nation' s souvereignity, someone has selling Italy to a non specified European Ubergovernement which is lead by who?
By citizens? By politicians? By bankers? By elites?
BY WHO????
I don' t think by citizens of Nations, they have been shut up.
Your voice is the only and the last that counts, in someway you are representing not only Ireland but even all the citizens of other nations who couldn' t vote for their country.
Asking you to vote twice with assurances that are only promises with no legal value but not written- included in the treaty, means that they want to reject your first vote and force you to say yes.
This is no democracy.
They have no esitations to cancel French and Dutch Referendum for approving the Treaty with fraud, but now they want to refuse your precedent NO.
With such an arrogance.
Do you really need to be asked twice?
You won' t be alone as they said you, simply the Treaty ( and the threat... ) won' t be operative. Not only for you, but even for ALL the States in Europe. This means that also the Codex Alimentarius won' t be operative ( and the Codex is a real tragedy... look at the Revelations of John... ) also. The dictatorial European Uberstaat won' t be operative. Don' t forget please the people who died for freedom, what President Kennedy said of this 11 days before dying.
We italians- europeans , french- europeans, english- europeans, german- europeans, czech- europeans, austrian- europeans, belgian- europeans, spanish- europeans, greek- europeans etc. with no vote are alone, and betrayed from our governements. Don' t let us be alone.
The imagine all the people in Europe have of the EIRE is a pure land made by fiery, rebellious people who want to be free.
Don' t sell your identity ( and our also ), please.
Don' t sell your soul for some not- included-in-the-treaty aleatory assurances.
Who' s promising you that nothing will change are liars.
Resist and stay free for us all.
Forgive my english, thank you for the hospitality and sorry for this visit, God bless and protect you who can give such an important vote.

Dinner

Well your first job, as a fine upstanding Italian citizen is to utilise the clause in your constitution to propose an amendment that will make it legal to vote on international treaties.

Iloveyouitaly

Dinner wrote: »

Well your first job, as a fine upstanding Italian citizen is to utilise the clause in your constitution to propose an amendment that will make it legal to vote on international treaties.

In fact we are writing a lot of letters to the Parliament for this, for instance no answer from them, and misfortunately often is in such a way, citizens protest, write letters, manifest, but Montecitorio remain blind to popular wisdom. I' m so concerned about freedom because the way UE is acting, overpassing people, is the same I can see every day in my country. I know this feeling well.

Dinner

Iloveyouitaly wrote: »

In fact we are writing a lot of letters to the Parliament for this, for instance no answer from them, and misfortunately often is in such a way, citizens protest, write letters, manifest, but Montecitorio remain blind to popular wisdom. I' m so concerned about freedom because the way UE is acting, overpassing people, is the same I can see every day in my country. I know this feeling well.

Countries having or not having a vote has nothing to do with the EU. It is down to each individual country.

Also, another issue from your original post

Iloveyouitaly wrote: »

Lisbon Treaty will permit to industries to take in a country low- paid workers from other more poor europeans countries like for example Romania or Poland, applying not the payment criteria of the country the worker searches for job, but the criteria of the country the worker belongs to.

This is not true. Not at all. If your country has a minimum wage then they will be paid that, not the minimum wage of their own country.

FutureTaoiseach

I intend voting no actually.

Euro_Kraut

Voting NO to the Lisbon Treaty will not advance the cause of direct democracy in Italy. That can only be achieved by Italians themselves demanding it.

Good luck with your campaign to introduce referendums in Italy. They are tremendous fun.

ixtlan

Iloveyouitaly wrote: »

In fact we are writing a lot of letters to the Parliament for this, for instance no answer from them, and misfortunately often is in such a way, citizens protest, write letters, manifest, but Montecitorio remain blind to popular wisdom. I' m so concerned about freedom because the way UE is acting, overpassing people, is the same I can see every day in my country. I know this feeling well.

Your problems regarding democracy are to do with Italy and not the EU. Regardless of whether Lisbon is good or bad, the issue of you not having a vote, and your distrust of your Italian leaders, is an internal matter for Italy alone.

The EU does not determine how states ratify treaties. If it could that would be a serious loss of sovereignty.

I wish you well in your campaign for a vote, but I'm sure you realise that what you really need to do is make it an election issue when your members of parliament are voted for.

It's unfair of you to ask us to vote NO for you. Firstly because we must vote on what is right for Ireland and not Italy. Secondly because even if we were convinced that we should consider the wishes of Italians in this matter, we have no way of knowing how many people in Italy you represent. In fact if we had to guess your support level we would have to assume it was low, as otherwise you would have made it an election issue, and you would have more members of parliament on your side.

I appreciate that you are probably struggling with the apathy of the Italian voters, but honestly we are struggling with the apathy of the Irish voters trying to get them to study the treaty, so good luck!

Ix.

PopeBuckfastXVI

Sorry ILoveYouItaly, but on October 2nd I'll be giving my opinion, which is what I'm being asked for, not yours.

Incedentally, congratulations on being elected to speak for the entirety of Italy, well done, though I'm surprised I didn't here about that when I was in Rome last weekend...

Zuiderzee

Be greatful that you live in a country where you are allowed a choice Buck, and as an EU treaty, we should consider the effect it will have on all our fellow citizens, not just what their political classes want.

Had to laugh at Cowen and Martin BTW - that Turkey would never enter the EU because it would require all EU states saying Yes, no such problems for Croatia and Iceland though apparently.

This idea that the EU could never make a unanimous decision is bollix - after all, Lisbon has been ratified by Parliaments, not people directly.

FunnyStuff

actually Buck, congrats on YOU being given the chance to speak for Rome, and everyone else this Treaty affects.

Aint democracy great

ixtlan

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Had to laugh at Cowen and Martin BTW - that Turkey would never enter the EU because it would require all EU states saying Yes, no such problems for Croatia and Iceland though apparently.

Can you provide a quote for this? I find it extremely unlikely that anything like this was said.

As far as I know Ireland supports the principle of Turkish membership, and it's far more likely that France or Germany will block it. In any case this is years away if ever and we're likely to see another EU treaty before then.

Certainly any new EU entry does require all existing states to say yes, that's the normal requirement. Croatia and Iceland are easier as they already have many ties to the EU and I assume already fulfill most requirements.

Turkish accession is not connected to Lisbon.

Ix.

walrusgumble

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Be greatful that you live in a country where you are allowed a choice Buck, and as an EU treaty, we should consider the effect it will have on all our fellow citizens, not just what their political classes want.

Had to laugh at Cowen and Martin BTW - that Turkey would never enter the EU because it would require all EU states saying Yes, no such problems for Croatia and Iceland though apparently.

This idea that the EU could never make a unanimous decision is bollix - after all, Lisbon has been ratified by Parliaments, not people directly.

i reckon if turkey comply with any demands, some in the eu would welcome turkey with open arms

who knows what is in store 20 years down the line and what type of country turkey will be.

i would imagine that the eu would be very keen on turkey's geographical position considering it to be another key gateway into Asia.

PopeBuckfastXVI

FunnyStuff wrote: »

actually Buck, congrats on YOU being given the chance to speak for Rome, and everyone else this Treaty affects.

Aint democracy great

Silvio Berlusconi speaks for Rome, and was elected by the Italian people to do so. I looked into the matter when 'ILoveYouItaly' confused me...

Here's a little background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Council_of_Ministers_of_Italy

bangersandmash

Zuiderzee wrote: »

Had to laugh at Cowen and Martin BTW - that Turkey would never enter the EU because it would require all EU states saying Yes, no such problems for Croatia and Iceland though apparently.

Not sure about Iceland, but it seemed that the only major objector to Croatia's accession was Slovenia - and they lifted the block this week.

utick

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Silvio Berlusconi speaks for Rome, and was elected by the Italian people to do so. I looked into the matter when 'ILoveYouItaly' confused me...

Here's a little background:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_Council_of_Ministers_of_Italy

ah so in your world only the prime minister/taoseach/president are only allowed to express there views.

realismpol

finally someone comes on speaking some sense(even if its in italian english)

Yes its funny how the government of ours is trying to make lisbon look as simplistic as possible to fool the general public. I watched brian cowen the other night on t.v trying to justify it. He spent the whole program saying 'look we have to stay in europe....we'll be rejected on the boundaries'' they'll cast us into the abyss...woah is me'

or haven't you seen their attempts to get people to vote yes with the yes posters. The cheesy smiles of a model with a speech bubble coming out ' ITS SIMPLE IM SAFER IN EUROPE':pac:

yes lisbon is simple as that :rolleyes:

FunnyStuff

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Silvio Berlusconi speaks for Rome, and was elected by the Italian people to do so. [URL="http://"][/URL]

And yet you get to vote on something that directly affects the Italian people without them being allowed a direct say themselves. Funny that.

PopeBuckfastXVI

FunnyStuff wrote: »

And yet you get to vote on something that directly affects the Italian people without them being allowed a direct say themselves. Funny that.

Take it up with the Italian constitution which forbids referenda on international treaties. I'm still going to use my vote to give my opinion, not someone else's.

robindch

Iloveyouitaly wrote: »

sorry for this visit

On behalf of the Irish people, I accept your apology.

MagicMarker

I'm amazed so many people even attempted to read the OP.

ei.sdraob

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm amazed so many people even attempted to read the OP.

If he really is who he claims to be then he wouldn't have a problem

with posting the exact same post in Italian

and we can get native speakers to check

also this is a great tool Traceroute tool to check the country of an internet user > http://www.dnsstuff.com/ i use regularly on my sites

3greenrizla's

if Lisbon is passed, will it remove the thorn in the side of Europe that is the Irish Constitution, and remove the need for future referendums?

I have to say that I am concerned that lisbon is a new version of the EU constitution that was rejected by 2 other states, and now were the only ones that have a say... whichever way I vote...

hatrickpatrick

3greenrizla's wrote: »

if Lisbon is passed, will it remove the thorn in the side of Europe that is the Irish Constitution, and remove the need for future referendums?

I have to say that I am concerned that lisbon is a new version of the EU constitution that was rejected by 2 other states, and now were the only ones that have a say... whichever way I vote...

Lisbon was specifically designed to replace the EU constitution, with just enough removed from it to bypass referenda in most countries and pass it through parliaments instead. Even the Yes campaigners in the EU have admitted this. In my opinion this is another example of how unimaginably undemocratic this treaty is, but a large number of people here don't see it that way so I may well be in the minority.

Dinner

3greenrizla's wrote: »

if Lisbon is passed, will it remove the thorn in the side of Europe that is the Irish Constitution, and remove the need for future referendums?

That is not true at all. It's just a well publicised lie.

evercloserunion

3greenrizla's wrote: »

if Lisbon is passed, will it remove the thorn in the side of Europe that is the Irish Constitution, and remove the need for future referendums?

No. The Irish Constitution will still exist if we vote Yes, and the criteria for judging whethera Treaty needs a referendum to ratify will be the exact same as it is now.

P. Breathnach

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Lisbon was specifically designed to replace the EU constitution,

Yes.

with just enough removed from it

With differences designed to remove things that people didn't like -- most obviously, the proposed adoption of state-like symbols.

to bypass referenda in most countries and pass it through parliaments instead.

Most countries do not require referendums, and some expressly prohibit them.

Even the Yes campaigners in the EU have admitted this.

That is a skewed interpretation -- and, in any event, not all yes campaigners said anything like that.

In my opinion this is another example of how unimaginably undemocratic this treaty is, but a large number of people here don't see it that way so I may well be in the minority.

In effect, you are suggesting that the Lisbon treaty is a bit of a con job. I see it quite differently, as saving the useful parts of the proposed constitution (that is, most of it) by jettisoning the parts that people disliked most and by making a few tweaks to fine-tune the rest.

BlitzKrieg

3greenrizla's wrote: »

if Lisbon is passed, will it remove the thorn in the side of Europe that is the Irish Constitution, and remove the need for future referendums?

Article 48 (sections 4 and 6) specifies that any changes to the Lison treaty is subject to the constitutional requirements of each member state. Which has always been the case (you can check article 48 of Nice and will find the same requirement) So thats a blatant lie.

Lisbon was specifically designed to replace the EU constitution, with just enough removed from it to bypass referenda in most countries and pass it through parliaments instead.

Actually its not what they removed that changed how it was passed, its the role Lisbon has in the political structure of member states over the role the European Constitution.

The European Constitution was a completely new legal entity it ignored the prior treaties and created a whole new structure with only the constitution as the basis. Hence the referendum requirement, it was an entirely new entity

The Treaty of Lisbon on the other hand is an amendment treaty which amended the prior treaties into a structure that is set up the same way as the constitution.

PopeBuckfastXVI

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Lisbon was specifically designed to replace the EU constitution, with just enough removed from it to bypass referenda in most countries and pass it through parliaments instead.

Hello...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61263296&postcount=1