Religion's greatest tools

My name is URL

I have to go to a funeral tomorrow, it got me to thinking about what the biggest holds that religions have over us, even though a good portion of people aren't religious in any way.

The fact that the only choice one has to say goodbye to someone that's died is dictated by the church, the fact that the choir will sing "Nearer my God to thee" at the funeral (very fecking sad song), the fact that they'll be put into the ground which is owned by the church.

Are these the tools they use to make sure people stay religious? Sure you can go to graveyards and not pray, but does that even matter?

And that's only when someone dies.. no mention of the stuff that's almost forced upon you when your living!

What other tools do the church use to maintain their congregation?

orestes

You can non-denominational funerals afaik, not sure about how you go about it or who you contact though

brummytom

Tradition.

Don't think it's anything more for most people tbh. Don't know about over there but here the majority of cemetery's are owned by the councils and the family have complete control over readings and songs/hymns in the mass?

They don't use any tools to 'maintain their congregation'. If you don't want to go, don't.

Sharpshooter

Nothing the church can do will make anyone stay religious if they decide to leave.
Those days are over.

javaboy

What are you on about? Church funerals aren't forced on anyone.

bonerjams03

There are such things as Humanist graveyards... Not being patronising, it just is possible to avoid it.

AckwelFoley

The mere impossibility to prove a negative is religions greatest tool along with humans inherant need to have an explination for our existance

Stercus Accidit

Acquire dynamite before your death, with a detonator hooked up to your heartbeat.

Then go skydiving, the shock will give you a heart attack.


Invite relatives to watch the fireworks.

Also no burial costs, they can get drunk instead.

Pighead

Weddings. Of course there's always other options but there's pretty big pressure generally put on to go down the church route.

Pighead was at a wedding at the very end of July. It was probably the only sunny day in the whole damned rain soaked month. The priest said "And let us thank the all powerful almighty God who saw fit to bless the happy couple with a wonderful dry day"

So basically God made it nice and dry for Pigheads friends but gave a big fcuk you to the thousands of other couples who got married during the previous thirty rain soaked July days.

By Pighead's calculations that makes God 1/31 good or expressed as a percentage 3.23%.

Min

Some people actually like their faith, their religion, the church is its people.
The people have a hold over their church as without the people there is no church.

Riddle101

Technically speaking it's the funeral homes that go about putting people in graves. I don't think the church owns the graveyard just that it's a sacred place for the church. But i'm sure if you want to bury someone in a field somewhere no ones going to stop you;).

Min

IRcolm wrote: »

There are such things as Humanist graveyards... Not being patronising, it just is possible to avoid it.

You could get cremated.....

AckwelFoley

Riddle101 wrote: »

But i'm sure if you want to bury someone in a field somewhere no ones going to stop you;).

myra hindley disagrees

My name is URL

javaboy wrote: »

What are you on about? Church funerals aren't forced on anyone.

Of course not.. but when somebody else dies it means that I have to attend the funeral, along with my young cousins who see it as the norm when a death occurs.

When do people become atheist.. not at 7-8 that's for sure, and there's nothing to say that everyone will become atheist later in life, given just free will alone

Pighead

javaboy wrote: »

What are you on about? Church funerals aren't forced on anyone.

Such aggression! You should warn yourself for that outburst. The poor lad's only throwing a few thoughts out to the populace.

Tone it down javaboy.

Or something to that effect,

orestes

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course not.. but when somebody else dies it means that I have to attend the funeral, along with my young cousins who see it as the norm when a death occurs.

No you don't, you could just not go. Granted it's not the best alternative, but the choice is there.

javaboy

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course not.. but when somebody else dies it means that I have to attend the funeral, along with my young cousins who see it as the norm when a death occurs.

When do people become atheist.. not at 7-8 that's for sure, and there's nothing to say that everyone will become atheist later in life, given just free will alone

That's not the church forcing you to do anything. It's you choosing to respect the dead's beliefs. If anyone's forcing anything on you, it's the deceased or your family etc.

Now Good Frigging Friday and the pubs being closed. There's religion being shoved down our throats.

brummytom

I don't see the problem. You've been asked to a funeral, but you're not happy it's in a church?

If someone I cared for died, I'd go to a mountain peak if that's where their funeral was. It's nothing to do with maintaining any kind of stronghold on people or trying to sustain a congregation, just merely respecting the wishes of the deceased.
What's wrong with that?

javaboy

Pighead wrote: »

Such aggression! You should warn yourself for that outburst. The poor lad's only throwing a few thoughts out to the populace.

Tone it down javaboy.

Or something to that effect,

No back seat modding.

Mrmoe

My name is URL wrote: »

Of course not.. but when somebody else dies it means that I have to attend the funeral, along with my young cousins who see it as the norm when a death occurs.

When do people become atheist.. not at 7-8 that's for sure, and there's nothing to say that everyone will become atheist later in life, given just free will alone

It is generally the wishes of the person who passed away that they would want a church funeral. Religious authorities have no power over us anymore only the power that we ourselves assign them. I am not a holy man but it does not stop me from going to a church to commemorate someones life. Your cousins might be too young yet but they will make up their own mind someday too.
Sorry for your loss as well.

Pighead

javaboy wrote: »

No back seat modding.

Cheer up grouchy.

Pighead

brummytom wrote: »

I don't see the problem. You've been asked to a funeral, but you're not happy it's in a church?

If someone I cared for died, I'd go to a mountain peak if that's where their funeral was. It's nothing to do with maintaining any kind of stronghold on people or trying to sustain a congregation, just merely respecting the wishes of the deceased.
What's wrong with that?

I actually think us catholics put on a good funeral. Nice set up and we generally send them off with good humour and fond memories in our hearts. Not a great religion to be born into but a nice one to die with. Or something like that.

My name is URL

javaboy wrote: »

If anyone's forcing anything on you, it's the deceased or your family etc.

And that's not a tool devised by the church? To go off on a tangent for a second, if it was a Pagan funeral where the body is burned out-of-casket or placed in a cave would be an acceptable place to bring a child, in the eyes of society?

Mark200

I think weddings and funerals are definitely where the church holds a 'grip' on us still. Obviously they don't force anyone to have a wedding or funeral in a church, but there's still a fair bit of pressure and expectation for weddings and funerals to take place there. If you think about the people you know who would consider themselves religious, and then think about the proportion of couples who got married in a church.... I'm very confident you'll find the proportion of couples who got married in a church is far greater than the proportion of people who are religious.

brummytom

Pighead wrote: »

I actually think us catholics put on a good funeral. Nice set up and we generally send them off with good humour and fond memories in our hearts. Not a great religion to be born into but a nice one to die with. Or something like that.

Yep, I'd like a nice church funeral when I die.
I remember the last verse of the final hymn of my first funeral I went to;
"Lord of all gentleness, Lord of all calm,
Whose voice is contentment, whose presence is balm,
Be there at our sleeping, and give us, we pray,
Your peace in our hearts, Lord, at the end of the day."

Was really nice.

Anyway, TBH I think 'you irish' do the good funerals. All the funerals I've been to bar one have been of Irish people. Jesus Christ, the other was the most English thing in the world! No jokes, amazingly solemn and no crying! :eek:

pablomakaveli

I reckon when someone loses someone they love or care about having the funeral gives them a sense that their loved one has gone to a better place.

Even people who aren't religious may not like the idea that there loved one may not have gone to heaven after they died as it's not a pleasant thought so soon after losing someone. Having a church funeral might help them believe this.

Fremen

Without a doubt, the Westboro Baptists are religion's greatest tools.

AnonoBoy

Fremen wrote: »

Without a doubt, the Westboro Baptists are religion's greatest tools.

Beat me to it.

Capt'n Midnight

Sharpshooter wrote: »

Nothing the church can do will make anyone stay religious if they decide to leave.
Those days are over.

Not for most Muslims

orestes

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Not for most Muslims

Muslims go to church now? Multi-cultarilism really is great :pac:

Nevyn

orestes wrote: »

You can non-denominational funerals afaik, not sure about how you go about it or who you contact though

http://www.humanism.ie/website/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=57

Celebrating Life
When someone dies those affected by the death will be helped by joining together to share their grief. A funeral ceremony gives them this opportunity. It also provides an occasion to celebrate the life that has ended. And when the person who has died held no religious beliefs, it is important for the ceremony to respect this fact and to reflect his or her views.

For more information about humanist funerals, see here.

Humanist ceremony information:

Mobile (cell): +353 (0) 86 3848940
email: ceremony@humanism.ieThis

The majority of graveyards are own by the county councils and not the churches and anyone can get buried in them and you don't need a priest, the remains can go from the funeral home to the graveyard directly.

Capt'n Midnight

Riddle101 wrote: »

Technically speaking it's the funeral homes that go about putting people in graves. I don't think the church owns the graveyard just that it's a sacred place for the church. But i'm sure if you want to bury someone in a field somewhere no ones going to stop you;).

There are laws/regulations about burying dead bodies.

Nevyn

My name is URL wrote: »

And that's not a tool devised by the church? To go off on a tangent for a second, if it was a Pagan funeral where the body is burned out-of-casket or placed in a cave would be an acceptable place to bring a child, in the eyes of society?

Bodies are only ever burned in a crematorium and caskets are not needed,
the last pagan cremation and burials I have attended had children at them and were very touching events and the present children were included in them and got to speak about the person who had passed.

Nevyn

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

There are laws/regulations about burying dead bodies.

Yes but they are reasonable enough.

The only relevant part was the three basic criteria, which amount to Common Sense: no burial must take place that would, a) pollute a water source, b) pollute a drainage system, or c) that it is possible to dig deep enough to prevent disturbance of the grave by predatory animals, or by farm machinery.

gramlab

When I saw the title I thought we were supposed to name historical religious figures.

Church will always influence your funeral etc because people go with the flow. If you dont want it for yourself then just make sure you let your loved ones know your wishes before you pop your clogs.

My name is URL

Thaedydal wrote: »

Bodies are only ever burned in a crematorium and caskets are not needed,
the last pagan cremation and burials I have attended had children at them and were very touching events and the present children were included in them and got to speak about the person who had passed.

I'm sure it was a lovely way to send the person off, but as far as acceptable practice goes according to society is it ok?

It's not as acceptable as a traditional funeral.. will it ever be?

It's one thing knowing that you'll get the sending off that you want, it's another knowing that those attending will be comfortable with that.

Nevyn

I mean if you are going to get in a tizzy at least make it for something which actually discriminates, like the religious oaths that people are expected to swear to become a T.D., judge or any other public office.

Or that all the polling stations in the country are the 'local' school, which usually is the catholic primary school which is church grounds and will have christian imagery in it.

OR that ethics of our state run and funded hospitals are catholic and there for non adherents of that religion have the choices of thier treatment effected by that.

OR that every sitting of the Dáil and Sennad starts with a christian prayer.

There's plenty that needs highlighting and change, as for funerals there are plenty of options if you do not want a christian burial you just have to make sure your wishes are known and put a plan in place.

http://www.humanism.ie/website/docs/EqualityForNon-ReligiousPamphlet.pdf

Nevyn

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm sure it was a lovely way to send the person off, but as far as acceptable practice goes according to society is it ok?

Do you really think that I or anyone else who id's as pagan really is that concerned about what society thinks is ok?

As long as it's legal and people get to mourn and what ever spiritual rites are fitting for the deceased are preformed that is what matters not that Mary who lives down the road thinks it's shocking there wasn't a church or priest involved.

Too many people in this country concern themselves too much about what 'society' thinks.

I don't know why you think that the two pagan funerals I was at were something bizzare or strange compared to other funerals, cos they weren't.

My name is URL wrote: »

It's not as acceptable as a traditional funeral.. will it ever be?

Who said it's not acceptable?

What are the traditions as you see them for a traditional funeral?

My name is URL wrote: »

It's one thing knowing that you'll get the sending off that you want, it's another knowing that those attending will be comfortable with that.

Ireland is going through a period of change and there will be many traditions which will not be over looked which will be incorporated in a slightly different way of doing things.

Sharpshooter

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm sure it was a lovely way to send the person off, but as far as acceptable practice goes according to society is it ok?

It's not as acceptable as a traditional funeral.. will it ever be?

It's one thing knowing that you'll get the sending off that you want, it's another knowing that those attending will be comfortable with that.

I see it this way.
If someone dies and I knew them well I will attend their funeral no matter what my beliefs are.
I would be doing it out of respect for the deceased and their family.

As for cremation, my mam was cremated and I have to say it was far more peaceful for me to watch the Heavy Red Curtains slowly close in front of her coffin * As Sinatra's My Way CD played* than look down at her coffin being lowered into the mucky ground.

Just my take on it.

kumate_champ07

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Even people who aren't religious may not like the idea that there loved one may not have gone to heaven after they died as it's not a pleasant thought so soon after losing someone. Having a church funeral might help them believe this.

alot of non religious people dont believe in heaven.

the wake is the important part. people talking about the deceased, telling stories, meeting old friends/family. much better than being in a cold church with some stranger talking about someone they didnt even know and being forced to sit and stand at different intervals like a child

Joey the lips

My name is URL wrote: »

I have to go to a funeral tomorrow, it got me to thinking about what the biggest holds that religions have over us, even though a good portion of people aren't religious in any way.

The fact that the only choice one has to say goodbye to someone that's died is dictated by the church, the fact that the choir will sing "Nearer my God to thee" at the funeral (very fecking sad song), the fact that they'll be put into the ground which is owned by the church.

Are these the tools they use to make sure people stay religious? Sure you can go to graveyards and not pray, but does that even matter?

And that's only when someone dies.. no mention of the stuff that's almost forced upon you when your living!

What other tools do the church use to maintain their congregation?

More religious bashing tripe. Religion is like a telly if you dont like the program switch it off. As for churches. Funeral homes do not dictate a format as you put it. If you want to get buried as a muslim you follow the muslim faith, A jew the jewish and guess what? a catholic follow the catholic faith

The choice is yours!

Daroxtar

The biggest tool that the church, and by that i mean all organised religions, has over us is humans inbuilt fear of death. Even if we are not afraid of death in the sense of the fact that we will die no one actually really wants to die just yet*. Its just nature, self preservation and all that.

Religion comes along and tells us that maybe when we die we actually dont really die at all but instead we go somewhere better, which when you think about is a fairly good offer. Somewhere nice>dead.


By giving people the hope that their death isn't final the church in some way helps people deal with their empending demise. It just makes it easier for a lot of people.

You also have the mathematics of it:
if you dont believe and it doesnt exist then no loss
if you dont believe and it does exist then big loss
if you do believe and it doesn't exist then big loss
if you do believe and it does exist then you win.
There's only one way to win


The philosophy is sound enough , its a bizzarre wee idea that seems to make people's life a bit less stressful. Where's the harm in that?

Unfortunately a load of powerhungry lunatics took control of the idea and decided to use it to further their own ideals and hoist their ethics on to everyone and the rest is history.

*except them fukkin emo twats

Jeanious

Jaysus 3 pages and no-one has mentioned the entire education system?

994

Pighead wrote: »

Weddings. Of course there's always other options but there's pretty big pressure generally put on to go down the church route.

Pighead was at a wedding at the very end of July. It was probably the only sunny day in the whole damned rain soaked month. The priest said "And let us thank the all powerful almighty God who saw fit to bless the happy couple with a wonderful dry day"

So basically God made it nice and dry for Pigheads friends but gave a big fcuk you to the thousands of other couples who got married during the previous thirty rain soaked July days.

By Pighead's calculations that makes God 1/31 good or expressed as a percentage 3.23%.

When God is nice, it's because he is good and you've been good.
When God is mean, it's because he is good but is testing/punishing you. It's like having an abusive parent.

eamonpendergast

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Acquire dynamite before your death, with a detonator hooked up to your heartbeat.

Then go skydiving, the shock will give you a heart attack.


Invite relatives to watch the fireworks.

Also no burial costs, they can get drunk instead.

As far as endings go, that's pretty damn flashy!

Jesus Wept

javaboy wrote: »

What are you on about? Church funerals aren't forced on anyone.

I imagine there are lots of non religious people, especially younger people who die suddenly and their family insist on the usual sh1te.

Cianos

As well as the fear of death as another poster said, it's the concept of "god is everywhere" that is another great tool of religion.

Panopticism, or constant total observation is one of the greatest methods of control. For example, the most disciplined prisons are those where the inmates know that they are being watched all the time.

The greatest instance of panopticism is our concept of an existing God, because "god is everywhere" and no matter what we do or how we hide ourselves away, we will not escape his gaze.

This image really represents that concept...the central observation tower positioned so that every inmate knows they are being watched all of the time. The message that "god is everywhere" so that every believer feels their every thought and action is being judged by a constant observer.

Maximilian

Death is only a gateway to Beer Volcanoes and Stripper Factories.

RAmen.

Hrududu

I imagine there are lots of non religious people, especially younger people who die suddenly and their family insist on the usual sh1te.

I was at a funeral recently of a young man who didn't believe in God. But his parents do so the whole religious thing was done. I don't really see what's wrong with that. Funerals are for the living, and if that helps them in any way then I say go ahead with it. It doesn't make a difference to the dead.

Poor Uncle Tom

Maximilian wrote: »

Death is only a gateway to Beer Volcanoes and Stripper Factories.

RAmen.

dont forget the coke rivers........

javaboy

The-Rigger wrote: »

I imagine there are lots of non religious people, especially younger people who die suddenly and their family insist on the usual sh1te.

Sorry I should have been clearer. Church funerals aren't forced on anyone by the church. In your example it is the family doing the forcing.