Tv3 show on European Dog Show in Dublin

Lemlin

Anybody watching this last night? It was part of a new documentary series called Modern Ireland.

The dogs were beautiful but I was very surprised at how competitive it is. Its put me right off going near a dog show.

Also, the president of the IKC said you could need to spend up to 8k on a dog to have a champion on your hands (that included all the grooming, feed, innoculations, exercise equipment etc.).

andreac

Hi, i watched it last night and i saw myself on it too a few times as i was stewarding in that ring where the lady was being flimed with her cocker.

Thought it portayed a good light on the dog show world and even though it can be a bit bitchy, theres a lot of hard work, time and effort goes into it, and all for the love of the dog.

As you saw there is no money to be won in dog showing and its the fun and prestige of doing well with your dog that keeps you going.

It does cost a lot of money to show your dog but its a hobby like any other hobby. If i was to add up what ive spent on my dog with showing the last 2 years (hes a champ now) then im sure it would a be huge figure. But i dont see it as money wasted as ive enjoyed every minute of it, made a lot of very good friends and have a dog that loves it too.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Hi, i watched it last night and i saw myself on it too a few times as i was stewarding in that ring where the lady was being flimed with her cocker.

Thought it portayed a good light on the dog show world and even though it can be a bit bitchy, theres a lot of hard work, time and effort goes into it, and all for the love of the dog.

As you saw there is no money to be won in dog showing and its the fun and prestige of doing well with your dog that keeps you going.

It does cost a lot of money to show your dog but its a hobby like any other hobby. If i was to add up what ive spent on my dog with showing the last 2 years (hes a champ now) then im sure it would a be huge figure. But i dont see it as money wasted as ive enjoyed every minute of it, made a lot of very good friends and have a dog that loves it too.

Is it hard to get into though? I'm interested in getting into it but think I might breed a litter off my own dog and maybe start training the pup I plan to keep from scratch.

That'd be two or three years down the line though as I'm busy building a house and with a baby coming at the minute tbh!

I've also heard the people in it can be quite closed off to newcomers. Is that true?

The woman with her cockers in the show came across as very nice but the two men with the bichon frises didn't at all!

andreac

I wouldnt say its closed off to new people at all, sure i wasnt a face and ive made my dog up in 2 years, you need to be prepared to put in a lot of work and effort and make the time if you want to succeed, which i did. Try get talking to people and get all the advice you can.

It is a lot of hard work and my whole weekends are taken up with the shows, esp when theres one on sat and sun, but im very much into it and i love nothing more than spending my whole day at the shows, but thats not for everyone.
Tbh, being in the ring for 5/10mins is only a very small part of showing, its all the comradery (sp) and the craic you have with friends there after your class and cheering on your friends etc which makes the day.

Lemlin

It did certainly look interesting. Definitely something I'd like to get into in a few years when I've more time on my hands.

peasant

andreac wrote: »

Hi, i watched it last night and i saw myself on it too a few times as i was stewarding in that ring where the lady was being flimed with her cocker.

Thought it portayed a good light on the dog show world and even though it can be a bit bitchy, theres a lot of hard work, time and effort goes into it, and all for the love of the dog.

As you saw there is no money to be won in dog showing and its the fun and prestige of doing well with your dog that keeps you going.

It does cost a lot of money to show your dog but its a hobby like any other hobby. If i was to add up what ive spent on my dog with showing the last 2 years (hes a champ now) then im sure it would a be huge figure. But i dont see it as money wasted as ive enjoyed every minute of it, made a lot of very good friends and have a dog that loves it too.

Not directed at you personally, but I would dispute most of the above.

Dog showing is a self-perpetuating business. There is quite some money to be made from a champion bitch and even more from a champion stud dog.
As everyone who takes showing seriously wants to win something sometimes, the offspring of champions is highly sought after and higly priz(c)ed.
Stud fees for champions of certain breeds can reach astronomical levels.
You personally may not be making any money out of showing ...but some people definitly are.

My main objection to dog showing is this though:
In most of the breeds the show standard of the breed has evolved to the detriment of the dog itself. What is considered "beautiful" by the judges is often unhealthy for the dog.
Worst examples of many ...the sloping backline in the German Shepherd that has effectively crippled the last few generations of these dogs ...the ever shrinking skulls of the CKC, leading to breathing and teething problems as well as syringomyelia ...etc, etc ...the list of suffering breeds is very long. Unfortunately the dog showing circle has a closed mind to most of these problems and dissenters either never win anything or are promptly expelled.

andreac

Hi Peasant, you are entitled to your opinion, but have you ever been to a dog show?
If not then i would be careful about what you say. I now own a champion rottweiler and i wont be rushing out to stud him, if i get someone interested and they have a nice bitch then i might consider it, but for me, him being a champion now is not about stud fees and the same goes for an awful lot of other show people i know who own champions.

I know a lot of people in a lot of breeds who own champions and they are striving to improve the breed and only breed themselves when they are looking for another dog to show, so they dont breed all of the time for money.

Its far from a self perpetuating business, where are your opinions to back this statement up?

Trust me, the people who attend shows every weekend throughout the year and breeding the odd litter are def not out there making money, far from it. Do you know exactly the costs of showing a dog or dogs as most people are? Trust me its not cheap, but we do it for the love of it and the enjoyment and reward if the dog/s happen to do well that day.

I have travelled to scotland and wales and come back with a 4th and nothing, and the trips cost me a fortune, so you cannot say that there is money to be made in showing.

I do agree with the way some breed standards have gone, and yes the GSD standard is terrible, and i do think that something should be done about it, for the sake of the dog.

peasant

Yes, I have been to dog shows, as we also own a purebred dog (from a champion bloodline) and briefly considered getting into showing ourselves.

Of course there is money to be made from show winners, not just stud fees but also your puppies (if you have a kennel) go up in demand and in price.
Some enthusiasts show dogs for the fun of it ...professionals do it for a reason.

Do you honestly believe that so many people would participate in all those far flung, expensive competitions if there wasn't the possibility of some return/recompense in it at the end?

But leaving that aside ...what really turned us off showing is our own dog. Despite having a champion bloodline, coming from a reputable breeder and having cost a good deal of money, she is ...how should I best put it ....defective.

We love her dearly, but our poor doggy is not quite right in the head and has a few other flaws as well ...despite having been sold to us as a future champion.

This prompted some investigaiton in the goings on in breeding and showing circles and I have since come to the opinion that showing dogs is at the heart of pretty much everything that is wrong with todays' breeds.

This deosn't necesserily apply to the enthusiast who shows a single dog for the craic of it and in the hope of winning something, but most certainly applies to the dog breeding "industry" ...the "reputable" and well known show breeders and we decided not to get involved in this.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

Hi Peasant, you are entitled to your opinion, but have you ever been to a dog show?
If not then i would be careful about what you say. I now own a champion rottweiler and i wont be rushing out to stud him, if i get someone interested and they have a nice bitch then i might consider it, but for me, him being a champion now is not about stud fees and the same goes for an awful lot of other show people i know who own champions.

I know a lot of people in a lot of breeds who own champions and they are striving to improve the breed and only breed themselves when they are looking for another dog to show, so they dont breed all of the time for money.

Its far from a self perpetuating business, where are your opinions to back this statement up?

Trust me, the people who attend shows every weekend throughout the year and breeding the odd litter are def not out there making money, far from it. Do you know exactly the costs of showing a dog or dogs as most people are? Trust me its not cheap, but we do it for the love of it and the enjoyment and reward if the dog/s happen to do well that day.

I have travelled to scotland and wales and come back with a 4th and nothing, and the trips cost me a fortune, so you cannot say that there is money to be made in showing.

I do agree with the way some breed standards have gone, and yes the GSD standard is terrible, and i do think that something should be done about it, for the sake of the dog.

I think dog showing is the same as anything else - you are always going to get some dishonest people.

A friend of mine had pure bred whippet pups to go free to a good home. They were IKC registered and worth a bit but she just wanted them rehomed as she didn't mean for two of her dogs to breed (she has plenty of dogs and shows another breed, the whippets are her daughter's pets) and the pups were an accident.

She was given the name of a well-known person who showed that breed of dog. When she contacted this person, she was disgusted. They were only interested in taking "any bitches" and it was pretty clear the person only wanted them for breeding.

My friend rehomed the pups herself to local people she knew.

andreac

Peasant you entitled to believe people are in in for the money but i can say that is the very small minority of people in showing. As i said, people show dogs for the love of dogs and enjoy the hobby and all the fun that goes along with it.

A lot of show dogs are also endorsed too which means even if they do turn into champions they dont always be bred from, so thats not about money is it?

I personally know someone who owns a top show dog, who travelled to crufts and the states with her dog and he is a champ several times over and he is endorsed as he is a show dog and not for breeding, so she will def not be making any money from him at all, so if you still think its all about money then you really dont know the whole ins and outs of showing.

With your dog being sold as a future champion, im sorry, but no breeder is ever going to know or be able to tell if the dog will be a future champion, puppies change all the time so what could be nice at 2 months could be awful at 6.
They may be of champion quality but ive never heard of anyone being told that their dog will be a future champion as you can never tell at a young age.

peasant

andreac wrote: »

With your dog being sold as a future champion, im sorry, but no breeder is ever going to know or be able to tell if the dog will be a future champion, puppies change all the time so what could be nice at 2 months could be awful at 6.
They may be of champion quality but ive never heard of anyone being told that their dog will be a future champion as you can never tell at a young age.

Correct ...they didn't say it those words either, but they were certainly encouraging us to show her in the future as they believed she should have great potential.
Anyhow ...to sum it up ...we got a dog that is from champion bloodlines, was deemed champion material by the breeder (and other breeders at a show) at puppy stage and the only event where she could win anything now is special olympics for dogs.
So that kinda puts the whole "champion" thing and "for the best of the breed" argument to ridicule for us. Further investigation into the standards of other breeds and the amount of suffering that those standards inflict on individual dogs leaves me personally disgusted at the whole show circle and the industry behind it.
But this is my personal opinion and I certainly don't want to turn this thread into an argument ...so I'll leave it at having voiced my opinion and stop now.

andreac

Im sorry, but there are plenty of pups born into "champion litters" , that have great potential and then never make it in the show world, no dog is perfect and as i said you never know what way a dog will turn out or finsih up once its fully grown.

A friend of mine has dogs that they show and they bought 2 pups, both of champion quality, male and a female,littermates, the male won all round him as a pup and then stoppped growing so he never made it out of puppy, but the bitch is an irish and english champion.
So you just cant tell the future, no one can, its the risk you take with dogs.

My dog is only well bred on his fathers side, was bred to a pet bitch for a one off litter and i got a fab dog from it who just happened to turn into a lovely dog who is now a champion and 2nd top male rottweiler in ireland this year.

Sigma Force

On the competitive side you should see people at a charity dog show for all sorts of dogs incl. mix breeds etc. very competitive at times despite it being just a bit of fun you just get caught up in it and offended if someone doesn't say your dog is the best pooch in the whole world lol. Any comp. wether it's a bit of fun or more serious can be competitive but that doesn't take the fun out of it.

Mix opinions about certain dogs being shown in general in dog shows though some dogs have been bred to the point they are in pain or unhealthy or look nothing like the origional breed.

macshadow

"2nd top male rottweiler in ireland this year" chances are whoever decided that doesn't know their arse from their elbow.

andreac

macshadow wrote: »

"2nd top male rottweiler in ireland this year" chances are whoever decided that doesn't know their arse from their elbow.

Excuse me, what do you mean by that statement?? do you know anything about showing,and if not pelase refrain from commenting about something you know nothing about?

Are you trying to say that international judges from all around the world and rottweiler breed specialists dont know their arse from their elbow?? you really havent a clue. Sounds like a jealous persons comment if you ask me.

Do you know what it takes to achieve that and how many judges have had to award him things to get that far? i very much doubt it, so please, keep your comments like that to yourself as you obv havent a clue.
Do you know my dog? Do you know anything about rottweilers?

Its not just ONE persons opinion, the competition runs from August to August. The dog has to be graded excellent, win his class, then beat all the other class winners to get the green star, then the dog with the most green stars in that year is the best male rottweiler being shown.

So please, in future dont post about something you know nothing about!

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

I personally know someone who owns a top show dog, who travelled to crufts and the states with her dog and he is a champ several times over and he is endorsed as he is a show dog and not for breeding, so she will def not be making any money from him at all, so if you still think its all about money then you really dont know the whole ins and outs of showing.

.

I have to applaud your friend but there are also people out there like the woman I spoke about above. There are people who are in it for the hobby and people who are in it to make as much cash as possible.

andreac

Lemlin, they really are the minority of people who are like that. You need to see for yourself really. Im in it 2 years now and i love it and its far from money that drives me to keep going as there is none in the showing.

Sure even crufts doesnt even have prize money.

peasant

andreac wrote: »

Sure even crufts doesnt even have prize money.

Sorry, but that's a bit naive.

2 mins on google searching "crufts winner" throws up this little gem:

Pictured above,CRUFTS '07 AWARD WINNER,
JINNYBRUX JIMMY NAIL.
(Heart tested grade ZERO,the best possible.)
He is a fabulous deer red & white boy and is confidently offered at stud ( STUD FEE £300 cash or sometimes we will have PICK OF LITTER as an alternative to the fee)

If I had more time, I could fill a whole page with quotes and prices like that

andreac

Sorry Peasant, but you arent getting me, there is little or no prize money to be won at the shows.

You keep referring to BREEDING! im not talking about breeding, im talking about the showing and the shows itself!!

Breeding is a total different ball game and im only talking about what can be won at the shows and whats involved in the shows, breeding is a totally separate arguement so if you want to start a new thread talking about that then fine, but please stop changing the subject.

peasant

Yes andrea ...I'm getting you perfectly. But as far as dog showing is concerned, people like you who just do it for the fun of it are (pardon the pun) a side show.

who organises the shows ...the breed/kennel clubs
who sponsors the shows ...kennel clubs and pet food companies
who profits ...the breeders/kennel clubs who, without shows, would loose their raison d'etre

It's big business ...even though you personally don't make any money out of it.


Dog shows aren't held so that you can feel proud of your Rottie ...they are held to keep breeders in business.

andreac

Of course it takes money to organise shows, they dont run for free. like any hobby, it costs money, but money is not what drives the exhibitors who travelling miles every week to attend these shows.

I have to disagree with you big time when you say people like me are a side show. How involved are you or have ever been with dog shows? How much do you actually know?

Judges dont get paid, stewards dont get paid so nearly all of the running of the shows are done by people who want to help and get involved in their hobby and give up their spare time to volunteer to help run these shows because they all have a common interest, DOGS!

That Euro winners how held in may had a huge amount of volunteers for the 3 days, me being one of them for the 2 days, i was showing the other day. I helped out all day on 2 days stewarding in the rings for a free lunch, thats all i got, but i didnt expect anything, i was only delighted to be involved in the biggest dog show that has ever come to ireland, it was an honour, and same goes for hundreds others that helped out too.

With regards sponsorship, the shows are sponsored by feed companies for example, who donate feed for the winners, the costs of the rosettes and the for making up the prize cards that the class winners get.

The clubs dont make that much money at all. Most of the the money that is made is pumped back into the running of the show and improving it the following year.

I am involved on a committe and know what it costs to run these shows and there are no people on the committees etc coming out with money in their own pockets, trust me.

I really think that you need to reserve judgement until you really know all the facts as it seems you are basing your opinion on hear say as you dont know how a dog show really works.

peasant

You're still missing my point.

I'm not disputing the fact that the show itself hardly turns a profit and actually costs a lot of money for those taking part.

It's in the sale of winning stock and the stud fees of winning stock where the money is made.

No shows, no winners, no money.

andreac

This thread was never about what happens after showing, you kept changing the subject.
Yes there is a bit of money to be made from charging stud fees for your dog, but the same happens in all hobbies where animals are involved.

I was talking about the showing itself and what is involved in that. Most people that exhibit their dogs and breed their champion bitch/dog afterwards are doing so to keep on the good lines and breed winners and champions themselves, its not to line their pockets.

kassie

i'm sorry peasent but i have to disagree

IF breeding show dogs is done correctly then there is no money whatsoever to be made,the breeder has to pay for the veterinary fees for the mother and pups, register the litter with the IKC, pay for vaccs, chip the pups, feed them, worm them, flea them and thats the least of their worries, what happens if the bitch has a difficult labour and the mother/pups require veterinary surgery or medical treatment, or worst of all the litter is lost... if the breeder is lucky he/she will recoup what money has been spent on the dogs from the sale of the pups... i can assure you that all the breeders doing things correctly out there are 100% animal welfare orintated!

I'm not disputing the fact that there are ppl out there in it for the money, but they can be spotted a mile off at shows and are frowned upon in the show scene!!!

I own a show dog myself and he come from the most caring breeder i have met, after hearing what she went through breeding this litter... its not for the faint hearted and it certainly has put me off ever wanting to breed, she herself has opted not to breed again because she found breeding this one and only litter so much hard work and stress

peasant

Ach kassie ...someone who had one litter and one litter only is hardly what I'd call a breeder.

The people who are behind the kennel clubs (and subsequently the dog shows) and who pull the strings are breeders who often breed in the second or third generation (and that's human generations ).

They are the people who know (and help appoint) all the judges, the people who influence the breed standard, the people you don't want to cross if you want to get anywhere with your breeding and the people who ultimately make the money. Everybody else are just hangers on ...either hoping to get a slice of the cake or genuine amateurs who stay around until disillousioned.

Saw a report (on German TV) the other day where the TV team followed several enthusiastic GSD breeders round the show circle.

Do you know what the busiest spot on a German GSD club show is?

It's the tent of the vets, where for a small fee you can get your dog declared sick and struck from the show results records.

50% of the exhibitors, those whose dogs won nothing get that done after the show as an also-run stays in the dogs' history just as much as a win. They'd rather not be on record at all and hope for better luck next time.
Now why would they do that, if it was just for "the fun of it" or "the good of the breed" or "the love of dogs"?

kassie

peasant wrote: »

Ach kassie ...someone who had one litter and one litter only is hardly what I'd call a breeder.

Well thats exactly what i would call a breeder - she put so much research into her litter and has produced 6 fabulous puppies, 1 of which is a champion at only 18 months old, and two more not far behind!

Everyone knows that the GSD breed standard requires reassessing BUT if they want to improve the breed standard they have to breed!

back to the OP... i have to agree with Andreac and say that the TV show really did show the show scene in a good light... yeah there are your lovely hobbiests (is that even a word LOL) like the family with the cockers, and myself and Andreac (along with 80% of the show ppl on the go) and then there are others like the guys with the bichon's who are extremely competitive and spit their dummies out when things don't go their way... that doesn't make them bad, its their passion and they want to succeed and in particular with those to guys, its the livelihood, they are professional handliers and make a living from showing dogs from different countries.

peasant

If I may score one more cheap point before I bow out

kassie wrote: »

with those to guys, its the livelihood, they are professional handliers and make a living from showing dogs from different countries.

So there are people who make money strutting round a field of grass with other people's dogs on the lead (and all the preparation and blow drying that comes with it) and owners who couldn't even bother to show their pride and joy themselves but rather pay someone to do it ...and ye are trying to tell me that this show thing is not a business?

sin e

kassie

yes ppl do that, mostly in america and europe, i can only assume they are very wealthy ppl and silly ppl that don't want to show their dog themselves, i don't see the point of it but there is a market for it and obviously some ppl took advantage of a business venture and make a living from their hobby... i don't see the harm in that, they are not encouraging breeding they are offering a service to SHOW the dog not breed it! People will send their dog from different parts of the world to be shown in ireland for a few months, they obviously can't afford to take a year out from work to show it themselves to they ask a person in that business to do it for them, again its a hobby, passion and its their pride in their dog that drives them to make that choice, to attain different titles in different countries... just because they are champions and have X amount of titles, its not fair to assume that they are breeding!

The dog that sired my dog, their kennels have been in that breed for over 20 years and have numerous amount of dogs over the years, but yet they only saw fit to breed five litters??? Why, coz they are in it for the breed and not money!

Also, the ppl involved in the breed clubs are ppl like myself and Andreac who are passionate about their breeds and their welfare

gazzer

Lemlin wrote: »

The woman with her cockers in the show came across as very nice but the two men with the bichon frises didn't at all!

Pardon the pun but those 2 guys came across as right bi*ches. I enjoyed the show though. Found it very entertaining

peasant

btw ..for those who haven't seen this and want to ...it's up on the TV3 catchup service

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=modernireland

looserock

One of the reasons I don't show anymore is that I really couldn't stand most of the other exhibitors, the incredible two faced behavior and general nasty back biting was unbearable.

I should say that there were also some very nice genuine people too.

macshadow

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090910/tod-chinese-woman-spends-600-000-on-dog-575248e.html
Andreac can you not see that the judges opinion becomes your opinion.
I have never been to a dog show and i never will, but i am certainly no stranger to dog ownership.
Why do so many judges have mustaches? the people involved in dog shows are more rank driven than their dogs.

spiderdog

dog showing is like any other hobby and doesnt appeal to everyone!
any person who competes in any hobby or sport is competive..its human nature!!!
my hobby is showing which ive been doing for 13 years now and im as addicted as ever
you get every type of person at dog shows...but on the whole...most people are like myself.
the time spent in the ring is tiny, its the whole craic and meeting up with friends ,comparing who won what...or didnt lol....is what makes the show!!
you strive to learn to show your dog to its best and have it in tip top condition etc and then hope the judge likes your type on the day! if not.....next weekend could be better
yes, there are some over the top people out there, just like there is in any sport and yes, some breeds do have problems but there are lots of good breeders out there who are striving to improve things!
as for it being a money making thing.......most breeders who are breeding want to improve what they have ....and are very lucky to break even after a litter!
i`ve had two litters in 13 years and can honestly say i maybe broke even, i bred to improve on my bitch (and travelled many miles to the right stud) the worry and exhaustion that breeding brings is tough and im not rushing to breed again for a few years.

as for studs, i`ve had the privilage of owning two champion males which i`ve never let out to stud as the i felt they didnt suit the bitches that were offered and im not in the minority!!
you`ll always get the few bad eggs who give showing a bad name but we`re not all like that!!!

Inexile

I have never shown a dog and probably never will. However, I have gone to a few. Its a very enjoyable day.t here is a great social feel it. There is the day showing and, in some cases, the evening afterwards. I can see how it could become a hobby. I couldnt see how people could make large amount of money from. Even if you breed from a good show dog you are limited in the amount of times you breed a dog (well those with ethics are) and the expenses, of traveling to a show, accommodation, vet bills etc could easily wipe out any profit you may make from a litter. I know one guy who shows and breeds, occassionaly ,and he aint rolling in the money -

andreac

macshadow wrote: »

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20090910/tod-chinese-woman-spends-600-000-on-dog-575248e.html
Andreac can you not see that the judges opinion becomes your opinion.
I have never been to a dog show and i never will, but i am certainly no stranger to dog ownership.
Why do so many judges have mustaches? the people involved in dog shows are more rank driven than their dogs.

Sorry, but i dont get the link???

If you have never been to a show then please dont comment on judges or their opinions.
Im sorry but i know a lot of judges and very few of them have moustaches,so that comment is pointless really. How can you say that if you have never even been to a show or seen a judge???
i really dont know where your arguement is coming from or where its going, but if you have no knowledge or experience of the topic being discussed then you really shouldnt be commenting.

moonzmum

Scuse me, i judge and I dont have a moustache lol, but I only judge small shows not IKC sanctioned ones. I have been showing dogs since I was 10, Im now 50, I never made up a champion, wasnt that lucky, but I do enjoy showing, meeting people, seeing the dogs at their best. My mum is 73 now and still travels far and wide showing, she never made up a champion either, just really enjoys it, its our hobby. Im afraid you get bitchy folk in all walks of life, its human nature;). I think you will find its the byb that makes money from dog breeding, with no thoughts to health testing, just churning ill puppies out to the unsuspecting public. Most people I know go to shows coz they enjoy them, if ya win, its an added bonus;)

Lemlin

A friend of mine reckons Ms Knowles from this programme (the cocker spaniel owner) has a website for her kennel. Does anyone know if this is true?

I can't find a website anywhere on the net for her.

andreac

I dont think so Lemlin, her kennel name is RUSHMI bit i cant find anything online for her.

Lemlin

andreac wrote: »

I dont think so Lemlin, her kennel name is RUSHMI bit i cant find anything online for her.

I couldn't find anything either thanks Rushmi. He must have been mistaken. I know the McEntee Campbells have a site at baysway.ie, maybe he got her mixed up with them as they are also cocker breeders.