Grand Canal junction etiquette

Jip

Ok, don't know if this is an old topic but I'll raise it again. This morning I was later than usual heading up the canal and was pleasantly surprised to see so many cyclists using it, it can only be a good thing.

However what I did notice was this strange compulsion for everyone who've you've passed out to tootle right up to the very front of the traffic queue at the next junction where the lights are red. Now fair enough if they are all ready and waiting to go when the light goes green, but alot aren't. They've in too high a gear to get a jump on the rest of you, resulting in you starting over slower than what you want and then having to overtake them again. At the next set of lights, same again, you're at the top or near the top of the traffic queue with a number of other like minded individuals. Along come the people you've gone by, they cycle around you and stop in front of you again, repeat ad nausea.

I know when I'm either knackered or feeling lazy I'll just stop at the back of the queue not wanting to worry about where everyone around me are, it's less hassle, plus you don't suffer the ignominy of getting overtaking again

jman0

I suspect you may be partly to blame here.
I think those other cyclists are observing an unwritten rule and taking up the most forward position possible while waiting the lights to turn.
If you were doing the same, then it be YOU in the forward position.
Your leaving space in front, and if you look behind you at all the queueing cyclists, you would understand why they do it.

Jip

That thought cross my mind but I do stop ahead of the stopped traffic, not too far out into the junction, enough where I fell it's safe for both myself and traffic around me. Some people will always stop in that small gap in front of you. As you say, it may well be me, I'll try stopping with my wheel almost rubbing the traffic passing through. Just to clarify, it's not the people who use bikes just as a means of getting in and out of the office, it would be more, how would you say it, people who think they're good and possibly don't like being overtaken ?

oflahero

There's only one way to beat this phenomenon, and that's to do as they do in the animal kingdom - spread your peacock feathers, as it were. At the red lights, weave out of the bike lane in front of the first car in an appropriate gear. At this point, posing is optional, but recommended. Trackstanding is a bonus and allows you to get away quicker, at the expense of everybody looking at you saying "prat" and hoping you will fall over. Watch for the opposing orange and be prepared to belt it at the first millisecond of green so that you can curve gracefully into the bike lane again at the other side of the junction, well ahead of everybody.

You should be pretty confident that you can carve up the field though, it could get pretty embarrassing if you hold up the motorist behind you (a no-no) or if there's a skilled smooth operator in the peloton to your left who gives you a run for your money out of the lights.

The important things in life eh...

ROK ON

@JIP. I think that the phenomenon you describe happens to all cyclists.
COmbination of 2 factors, (1) people who want to be at the head of traffic as lights change due to perception of safety, and (2) people who just want to be at the top of the queue.

Nothing really can be done about it, so why fret.

Ghost Rider

I disagree. If there's already a substantial queue and the first few people at the lights aren't as far forward as they might be, then it's potentially messy, and arguably somewhat ignorant, to barge through the whole queue on the dubious principle that someone should occupy the most forward position.

If there are only one or two people queueing, and they're way back behind the lights, I guess it's okay to pull in in front of them, as long as you won't be holding them up when the lights change. It's a matter of personal judgement, like so many other road usage issues.

jman0 wrote: »

I suspect you may be partly to blame here.
I think those other cyclists are observing an unwritten rule and taking up the most forward position possible while waiting the lights to turn.
If you were doing the same, then it be YOU in the forward position.
Your leaving space in front, and if you look behind you at all the queueing cyclists, you would understand why they do it.

dearg lady

This really bugs me I have to say!!! I'm generally on the slower side when it comes to cycling and am happy for people to overtake me, and I would then stay behind when I reach the next set of lights. But I get so infuriated when someone I 've just overtaken pulls up just in front of me, so I'm forced to overtake in traffic again. and again. and again... To me, it's actually quite rude, I'd consider it akin to skipping in a queue in a supermarket.

Raam

Does anyone ever say anything to the protaganists?

Jip

Ah well, I suppose I can look on the bright side, can I get commuter racing points for the same person or are they only per overtake ?

My skilled operator radar works very well, I'm quite good at spotting those wolves in sheeps clothing so I'll draft them with the excuse that traffic is too heavy to pull infront occasionally to share the workload. Gives me a chance for a breather too after making a quick break and realise my legs are feeling slightly heavy but don't want to slow down in the event that one those behind may catch me and laugh smugly to themselves as I wilt.

I've never seen anyone say anything, maybe a dirty look occasionally or a knowing glance and eyes to the sky to the guy beside you.

petethedrummer

Raam wrote: »

Does anyone ever say anything to the protaganists?

You might get stabbed in the face.

oflahero

Raam wrote: »

Does anyone ever say anything to the protaganists?

"Nice ass crack."

*runs away from an angry Acoustic*

petethedrummer

Jip wrote: »

Ah well, I suppose I can look on the bright side, can I get commuter racing points for the same person or are they only per overtake ?

Each overtake is a victory.

dearg lady

Raam wrote: »

Does anyone ever say anything to the protaganists?

Yeah, I do sometimes say to people but I have only ever got shouted at, same goes for pedestrians and motorists in cycle lanes. I say it in a nice way(well mostly!!) but have yet to have a nice response...

Jip

petethedrummer wrote: »

Each overtake is a victory.

Yaaayyy ! Now to wait for that girl on the electric moped I see occasionally who struggles to get up a hill near me. When I manage to overtake her I'll be a hero amongst men.

petethedrummer

Jip wrote: »

Yaaayyy ! Now to wait for that girl on the electric moped I see occasionally who struggles to get up a hill near me. When I manage to overtake her I'll be a hero amongst men.

well you have to make it stick and stay ahead till the next junction or until you part ways.

Chips Lovell

Personally I don't give a monkey's. I've never found overtaking that hard a manoeuvre to complete.

Nietzschean

Raam wrote: »

Does anyone ever say anything to the protaganists?

i have, same with stupid RLJ'n where i keep having to overtake them after...tbh they normally stop acting stupid while i'm near them then(no doubt probably cursing me away but i don't really care).

dearg lady

el tonto wrote: »

Personally I don't give a monkey's. I've never found overtaking that hard a manoeuvre to complete.

I knew someone would say this!! It's not, but that's hardly the point...and there are some roads that it's dangerous to overtake on.

tomasrojo

dearg lady wrote: »

Yeah, I do sometimes say to people but I have only ever got shouted at, same goes for pedestrians and motorists in cycle lanes. I say it in a nice way(well mostly!!) but have yet to have a nice response...

I sometimes think that in the same way the national catchphrase of Costa Rica is "Pura Vida" our national catchphrase is "F*** off, you f***ng pr***."

Lumen

It is inevitable.

People take up the "full frontal" position to give themselves more time to wobble away before the scary cars come. If they were capable of pulling away at reasonable pace, they wouldn't feel the need to take that position.

Therefore, faster cyclists will always end up behind.

Best to just chill out and be grateful for the extra time to spend with your public.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

It is inevitable.

People take up the "full frontal" position to give themselves more time to wobble away before the scary cars come. If they were capable of pulling away at reasonable pace, they wouldn't feel the need to take that position.

Therefore, faster cyclists will always end up behind.

Best to just chill out and be grateful for the extra time to spend with your public.

Indeed, think of the constant overtaking as interval sessions. Enough of this will do untold wonders for your top end speed. How do you think all those pro riders got to be so fast?

Nietzschean

i dunno i've moved up through hordes of commuters to closer to the front just so i won't have to overtake them after the lights...they can wobble loads making overtaking a little bit too interesting at times...

Jip

el tonto wrote: »

Personally I don't give a monkey's. I've never found overtaking that hard a manoeuvre to complete.

Usually not, but on a packed canal it can be with cars moving very slowly or stopped inches from the cycle lane markings. It's actually easier to do so when the canal is moving well and you can move into the space between cars to get around them.

Nietzschean

Raam wrote: »

Indeed, think of the constant overtaking as interval sessions. Enough of this will do untold wonders for your top end speed. How do you think all those pro riders got to be so fast?

just race the cars instead for a better challange, might make ye sweaty getting into work, but seeing how long you can maintain the 40-50km/hr in the sprints between lights is fun

Raam

Nietzschean wrote: »

just race the cars instead for a better challange, might make ye sweaty getting into work, but seeing how long you can maintain the 40-50km/hr in the sprints between lights is fun

Even better, cycle along the dart line and try and stay ahead of the train. That form of training is where the term "lead out train" for a sprint came from.

lukester

This is a non-issue.

Get to the lights, make sure you're either in front of everyone else or have clear sight of a sprint gap and then just hoor away on green.

TheJones

Its obvious that your unaware of the clandestine race in progress each morning on the streets of Dublin including a tactical peloton of commuters, sprints and time trials controled by lighted starts, the presence of traffic is nothing more than eurosport covering the event!

p15574

This is kind of related to the 'stop or not at red lights' discussion...it sometimes takes me a while to overtake a slow cyclist due to the road/traffic/whatever, only to invariably find that if I stop at a red light they meander on through, leading to a type of leapfrog game, with some muttered cursing while waiting to overtake the 5KMh rider.

StudentC

I had an interesting one recently - coincidentally it was near the Grand Canal.

I overtook someone as i was going at roughly twice her speed, but about 50 yards later I slowed and stopped for an orange and then red light. It was a pedestrian crossing and nobody actually crossed, so stopping was frustrating but it's just my habit to stop.

Lady I'd overtaken didn't agree - as she pulled up and stopped behind me I received a torrent of abuse. But she didn't break the light - just swore at me for stopping - just as she did! Odd!

abcdggs

Here is a comprehensive guide on how to "not" take commuter racing seriously.

TheJones

abcdggs wrote: »

Here is a comprehensive guide on how to "not" take commuter racing seriously.

Ha, Just spent the last five minutes calculating this mornings points!

Doctor Bob

Aah yes, BSNYC's 'sandbar of idiocy' in full effect!

I do sometimes move to the front, but it's a judgement call- is there room to get past the others, do they look like slowcoaches, etc. I'm often as happy just to take my place in the queue. I do agree, though, about the plodders who muddle through junctions only to hold others up- if you want to get there faster, get a quicker bike or stronger legs.

Top tip, if you want to prevent overtaking at stop lines: fill the cycle lane and make it hard for anyone to pass. The Grand Canal cycle lane is narrow enough at the junctions that a cyclist in the middle of it should be a sufficient obstacle to all but the most stubborn cyclist. If they insist on overtaking, let them go the long way around and leave it to Darwin...

abcdggs

You cant say that, people might think you're taking commuter races seriously

Jip

Doctor Bob wrote: »

Aah yes, BSNYC's 'sandbar of idiocy' in full effect!

So it's not local to the Grand Canal

For example, there's an unwritten rule among New York City bike commuters, and it applies to all riders, regardless of age, fitness, or style of bicycle. This rule is as follows:

If you stop at a red light and there is already another cyclist waiting at it, you must stop your bicycle in front of the rider who is already there.

stopped_clock

I had one at the lights at the UCD flyover once - I'd passed a guy on the uphill and stopped at the line at the lights. The dude proceeded to stop in front of me. To be fair it's not a difficult road to pass on, I just thought it was bad manners. The motorbike Garda coming up behind us made him move back behind the line.

tbh I thought it was both poor cycling and poor policing.

Micilin Muc

I always stop at the white line. If I am the first cyclist and if there's a car stopped at the white line too, I'll stop my bike right in the middle of the bike lane so that nobody can pass on my inside or on my outside!

cullend2

this happened to me a couple of weeks ago along wexford street. normally it would be easy enough to re-pass the cyclist in question, but he was cycling in heavy traffic with someone else sitting sidways across his lap, making him at least twice as wide and no room for me to squeeze by! skipped infront of me at lights at least 3 times between aungier street and the canal. at least once i got to rathmines i could leave him behind....

double black

Nietzschean wrote: »

just race the cars instead for a better challange, might make ye sweaty getting into work, but seeing how long you can maintain the 40-50km/hr in the sprints between lights is fun

Not an option along the Grand Canal - cars move at about 10km/hr. If you don't pass the slowcoach at the junction you might find yourself restricted to a 1m wide cycle lane for quite some distance.

Being a cycling thread, I'm sure there aren't too many pedestrians reading it, but another effect of the slow guys insisting on being in front is that they block the pedestrian crossings - poorly marked along the canal I would add.

BostonB

I noticed this a lot myself. Usually they take off like a rocket but after hundred meters or so, you can cruise past them. And I'm not very fast on my MTB. If the traffic is especially heavy you might not be able to pass them for a while. Occasionally its a view worth staying behind for. One young lady seemed less keen to get ahead after I pointed out her leggings were completely sheer.

BostonB

double black wrote: »

...another effect of the slow guys insisting on being in front is that they block the pedestrian crossings - poorly marked along the canal I would add.

Quite often theres room further forward than the ped crossing. If you want to go right out.

SerialComplaint

I've seen a variation of this at the junction of Sandford Rd/Marlborough Rd/Ranalagh Rd. It is a bit of a funny junction, with 5 roads coming together. For traffic coming up from Ranalagh, the list are positioned a bit back from the junction. Many cyclists go past the traffic lights before stopping, but then find there is no light opposite the junction, so they don't know when they have green.

I wait behind the lights until I get green, and then find myself trying to round/under/past these guys who went past the lights and then don't know when they can move off. It's a bit of a PITA.

Gavin

BostonB wrote: »

I noticed this a lot myself. Usually they take off like a rocket but after hundred meters or so, you can cruise past them. And I'm not very fast on my MTB. If the traffic is especially heavy you might not be able to pass them for a while. Occasionally its a view worth staying behind for. One young lady seemed less keen to get ahead after I pointed out her leggings were completely sheer.

Eh.. that's a bit freaking weird.