Would you pay higher tax if....?

faceman

With the details of the tax commission's report yesterday and all that NAMA stuff recently, people have been comparing the quality of life in Ireland to that abroad. Sweden often comes up as a comparison as public services there, health, transport etc is top of the range. But rarely is mentioned the high taxes paid there.

Some examples of taxes in Sweden (note they may be a year or so old)

* 0.75% of tax assessment value levied on property
* Income tax bands of 32% and 59.09%
* Higher rate of VAT of 25%

So if you thought you could be guaranteed a better quality of public service in Ireland, would you be prepared to pay higher taxes?

SV

No no no.

I'm not sick often enough.

whatawaster

If we had a functioning, modern healthcare system, a free (i mean actually free) education system up to third level and a world class public transport system then i'd have no problem paying higher taxes.

Nodin

faceman wrote: »

So if you thought you could be guaranteed a better quality of public service in Ireland, would you be prepared to pay higher taxes?

Yep. The scandanavians seem to have a better quality of life. The tax regime here is a disorganised mess - we'd be far better taking after some of the European models (which some of us, like idiots, presumed we'd do, being members of the EU). Here higher tax is linked to fuck ups, failures and miscalculations. And it isn't properly spread, with some items bearing far more of a burden that is safe (cars, for example).

netwhizkid

No, I am in favour of a small limited government with minimal state interference in peoples lives. We need to massively cut public services and reduce the taxes to the bare minimum. I do not think I should have to pay taxes to pay for other peoples healthcare and social welfare, I do not have children and so not have to pay for other peoples education especially those who are too useless to even attempt to fend for themselves.

I have far more respect for the hardworking latvian etc. on the minimum wage in somewhere like McDonalds than some useless bum who doesn't try and is happy to accept state handouts, we need to cut College grants as I think it is ridiculous the state paying big money for some idiot to attend college when they will end up in a dead beat job or on the dole.

We need to reward the successful and let the underclasses sink or swim. Ireland will be a Socialist state if these new tranche of taxes are implemented. Why should people work when they are hammered by taxes and they can get the dole and then avoid most of the new taxes.

1) Privatise Health care, something so important should never be under the control of the central government with a socialised system.

2) Begin the privatisation of Education and introduce education vouchers.

3) Reward businesses that create jobs.

4) Cut the Public sector employment numbers by a quarter million,

5) Cut taxes and begin pumping billions into Infrastructure, New Motorways to within 30 miles of every area, High Speed Rail connecting every county, massive upgrades of the countries National Electricity Grid, Fibre to every home, massive improvements in the road network.

6) Cut Vat to 10%, Abolish VRT, bring Petrol and Diesel down to 75c/litre, increase native energy, Wind, Peat, Oil, Gas to be expolited to reduce our dependence on energy imports. Unsign the Kyoto Protocol, Voluntary emissions cuts, flat taxes, All private cars to be taxed at €400/annum, all Diesels at €300/yr.

Ireland could become the star of Europe by taking the sword to massive behemoths and turn this country around with massive infrastructure projects leading to proper inward investment. One National state owned Bank, Banking sector fully nationalised and break the link with the ECB interest rates, our Interest rates should currently be higher not the lowly places they are now. Massive restrictions on risky lending, more impetus on start up Enterprises not loans for Holidays to Lanzarote.

More Radical options:

Ireland withdraw from the EU,

Relaunch the Punt pegged to the Pound Sterling.

Abolish the Senate, Give the President power to dissolve the Dail

Begin funding Northern Ireland, massive new Motorway projects connecting Donegal across the North back into the Republic. The Republic of Ireland to take full financial responsibility for Northern Ireland, thus subsuming full control and intergrating it into a United Ireland.

Federalisation of the Country, Provincial councils having most control over their own internal affairs. Abolishment of County Councils in favour of the Province Councils, Provincial Councils and President able to overrule Dail Eireann and dissolve Parliament.

Daroxtar

Hmmmmmm

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055661174




!

Rented Mule

netwhizkid wrote: »

Relaunch the Punt pegged to the Pound Sterling.

I was going to make the typical AH comments, but this one is interesting.

I am just going to take a guess that Sterling would be somehere in the area of 2 to 3 times the value of the punt at the moment (if it was to be re-introduced).

vincenzolorenzo

netwhizkid wrote: »

No, I am in favour of a small limited government with minimal state interference in peoples lives. We need to massively cut public services and reduce the taxes to the bare minimum. I do not think I should have to pay taxes to pay for other peoples healthcare and social welfare, I do not have children and so not have to pay for other peoples education especially those who are too useless to even attempt to fend for themselves.

I have far more respect for the hardworking latvian etc. on the minimum wage in somewhere like McDonalds than some useless bum who doesn't try and is happy to accept state handouts, we need to cut College grants as I think it is ridiculous the state paying big money for some idiot to attend college when they will end up in a dead beat job or on the dole.

We need to reward the successful and let the underclasses sink or swim. Ireland will be a Socialist state if these new tranche of taxes are implemented. Why should people work when they are hammered by taxes and they can get the dole and then avoid most of the new taxes.

1) Privatise Health care, something so important should never be under the control of the central government with a socialised system.

2) Begin the privatisation of Education and introduce education vouchers.

3) Reward businesses that create jobs.

4) Cut the Public sector employment numbers by a quarter million,

5) Cut taxes and begin pumping billions into Infrastructure, New Motorways to within 30 miles of every area, High Speed Rail connecting every county, massive upgrades of the countries National Electricity Grid, Fibre to every home, massive improvements in the road network.

6) Cut Vat to 10%, Abolish VRT, bring Petrol and Diesel down to 75c/litre, increase native energy, Wind, Peat, Oil, Gas to be expolited to reduce our dependence on energy imports. Unsign the Kyoto Protocol, Voluntary emissions cuts, flat taxes, All private cars to be taxed at €400/annum, all Diesels at €300/yr.

Ireland could become the star of Europe by taking the sword to massive behemoths and turn this country around with massive infrastructure projects leading to proper inward investment. One National state owned Bank, Banking sector fully nationalised and break the link with the ECB interest rates, our Interest rates should currently be higher not the lowly places they are now. Massive restrictions on risky lending, more impetus on start up Enterprises not loans for Holidays to Lanzarote.

More Radical options:

Ireland withdraw from the EU,

Relaunch the Punt pegged to the Pound Sterling.

Abolish the Senate, Give the President power to dissolve the Dail

Begin funding Northern Ireland, massive new Motorway projects connecting Donegal across the North back into the Republic. The Republic of Ireland to take full financial responsibility for Northern Ireland, thus subsuming full control and intergrating it into a United Ireland.

Federalisation of the Country, Provincial councils having most control over their own internal affairs. Abolishment of County Councils in favour of the Province Councils, Provincial Councils and President able to overrule Dail Eireann and dissolve Parliament.

Aren't you a great lad altogether. :rolleyes: Glad you're not that taoiseach anyway...

Repolho

faceman wrote: »

So if you thought you could be guaranteed a better quality of public service in Ireland, would you be prepared to pay higher taxes?

For a guaranteed better quality of government services, absolutley.

Stark

faceman wrote: »

With the details of the tax commission's report yesterday and all that NAMA stuff recently, people have been comparing the quality of life in Ireland to that abroad. Sweden often comes up as a comparison as public services there, health, transport etc is top of the range. But rarely is mentioned the high taxes paid there.

Some examples of taxes in Sweden (note they may be a year or so old)

* 0.75% of tax assessment value levied on property
* Income tax bands of 32% and 59.09%
* Higher rate of VAT of 25%

So if you thought you could be guaranteed a better quality of public service in Ireland, would you be prepared to pay higher taxes?

As long as the money goes back into public services that I can avail of, and not into the pockets of union workers, on TD expenses and junkets and general wastage that is so typical of Irish public spending.

rossie1977

netwhizkid wrote: »

5) Cut taxes and begin pumping billions into Infrastructure, New Motorways to within 30 miles of every area, High Speed Rail connecting every county, massive upgrades of the countries National Electricity Grid, Fibre to every home, massive improvements in the road network.

nice proposal but you propose to cut taxes and spend billions on infrastructure, where is that money going to come from?? the amount of cars on irish roads mean we don't need motorways everywhere, this isn't france or italy with huge amounts of cars, outside of galway and limerick the entire west coast of ireland is very sparsely populated from kerry to donegal, good wide straight 2 lane roads like was built between carrick on shannon and boyle is sufficient enough for most of this country outside the main motorways connecting dublin with cork, limerick, galway and waterford

Ireland could become the star of Europe by taking the sword to massive behemoths and turn this country around with massive infrastructure projects leading to proper inward investment. One National state owned Bank, Banking sector fully nationalised and break the link with the ECB interest rates, our Interest rates should currently be higher not the lowly places they are now.

looking at countries like iran a fully nationalised banking sector is not the way to go

Relaunch the Punt pegged to the Pound Sterling.

the punt would be worthless in todays europe

Euro_Kraut

I'm certainly willing to pay higher taxes in return for a better standard of living.

netwhizkid

rossie1977 wrote: »

nice proposal but you propose to cut taxes and spend billions on infrastructure, where is that money going to come from?

Well with my plans all Health Care and Social Benefits would be left up the individual and thus this would eliminate well over 60% of current Government spending, couple this with tax reductions and you have a far higher tax take as people would no longer be crippled by our taxation system. This would lead to increased revenues and there would still be plenty of money left over to build infrastructure. We are wasting so much money in this country with the socialism cradle to grave ethos of Marxism.

State money should be used for to grow the economy not preventing people from work and distorting the Market, Healthcare is a service and State Intervention here is wrecking the market, by privatising healthcare and introducing more competition it will actually lower most peoples health care costs as PRSI would be gone and those who live healthily will be rewarded financially in not needing healthcare, cigarette smokers and obese people are then punished financially for their lifestyle choices whereas at the moment everyone has to pick up the tab for them. It would be a far more fairer system overall.

Dankoozy

no the gubmint should stay out of people's lives as much as possible. less tax & less services

wes

I would have no issues with higher taxes, if it resulted in much better public services. As it stands we are being fleeced to pay for other peoples f***-ups and that doesn't sit well with me.

Donny5

whatawaster wrote: »

If we had a functioning, modern healthcare system, a free (i mean actually free) education system up to third level and a world class public transport system then i'd have no problem paying higher taxes.

The things is, after the introduction of a high tax economy, it would take several very tough years before the services really improved. As it is, we have been spending like a high-tax economy with funds from an unstable source (property taxes) without significantly reducing our national debt.

Introducing a high-tax system now would essentially be taking the pain now so that our kids could have a better country to inherit, something I'd be willing to do.

serendip

netwhizkid wrote: »

4) Cut the Public sector employment numbers by a quarter million,

The majority of public spending goes on welfare, healthcare and education. How many fewer nurses, doctors, or teachers would you like to see? And how many fewer Guards?

hobochris

I would gladly pay more higher taxes if a complete overhaul was done of the public sector, government expenses and TD's salaries were regulated depending on their actual service to tax payer(time spent in the dial etc..), Public finances not used to boost government popularity, A proper Infrastructure of transport and communications rolled out countrywide at cost prices not the over inflated brown envelope price.

But in till then I am firmly apposed to tax increases.

ScumLord

This is the main problem I have with the government wanting to raise taxes, they waste what they get now so their only going to waste any more money they get. I have a few friends that work on Irish road projects and the waste that goes on there would make you physically sick. millions are thrown away on pointless things and mistakes, there's far to much politics and backhanders going on.

The roads in my area get worse every time they touch them. roads that are "fixed" tare up a month later, they do the same job 3 times over 6 months, then tare up the road again for some unknown reason. Everything they touch turns to ****.

The government needs a serious overhaul before they even consider asking for more money, they need to trim the fat and start getting value for money and proper management. Until they do that they've no right to ask for more money.

Donny5

ScumLord wrote: »

This is the main problem I have with the government wanting to raise taxes, they waste what they get now so their only going to waste any more money they get. I have a few friends that work on Irish road projects and the waste that goes on there would make you physically sick. millions are thrown away on pointless things and mistakes, there's far to much politics and backhanders going on.

The roads in my area get worse every time they touch them. roads that are "fixed" tare up a month later, they do the same job 3 times over 6 months, then tare up the road again for some unknown reason. Everything they touch turns to ****.

The government needs a serious overhaul before they even consider asking for more money, they need to trim the fat and start getting value for money and proper management. Until they do that they've no right to ask for more money.

A lot of this is because of the local-centricity of Irish politics. Ireland may be a democracy, and it's a big maybe, but it is certainly not a meritocracy.

hobochris

ScumLord wrote: »

This is the main problem I have with the government wanting to raise taxes, they waste what they get now so their only going to waste any more money they get. I have a few friends that work on Irish road projects and the waste that goes on there would make you physically sick. millions are thrown away on pointless things and mistakes, there's far to much politics and backhanders going on.

The roads in my area get worse every time they touch them. roads that are "fixed" tare up a month later, they do the same job 3 times over 6 months, then tare up the road again for some unknown reason. Everything they touch turns to ****.

The government needs a serious overhaul before they even consider asking for more money, they need to trim the fat and start getting value for money and proper management. Until they do that they've no right to ask for more money.

+1

What they also need to bring in is accountability across the board.

In the example above they should be made fix the roads again and do it right!

If they are payed to fix a road they should do a proper job of it or be held accountable.

kt217

i would not pay higher taxes for what so the goverment can live the high life. feck them when the take pay cuts and pension cuts and expenses cuts the they can come back and talk to me

rossie1977

Donny5 wrote: »

A lot of this is because of the local-centricity of Irish politics. Ireland may be a democracy, and it's a big maybe, but it is certainly not a meritocracy.

it ain't, its a republic, vote for people to make the decisions for you, in a real democracy (of which i can't think of any) the people would vote on all decisions to be taken

whatawaster

netwhizkid wrote: »

No, I am in favour of a small limited government with minimal state interference in peoples lives. We need to massively cut public services and reduce the taxes to the bare minimum. I do not think I should have to pay taxes to pay for other peoples healthcare and social welfare, I do not have children and so not have to pay for other peoples education especially those who are too useless to even attempt to fend for themselves.

I have far more respect for the hardworking latvian etc. on the minimum wage in somewhere like McDonalds than some useless bum who doesn't try and is happy to accept state handouts, we need to cut College grants as I think it is ridiculous the state paying big money for some idiot to attend college when they will end up in a dead beat job or on the dole.

We need to reward the successful and let the underclasses sink or swim. Ireland will be a Socialist state if these new tranche of taxes are implemented. Why should people work when they are hammered by taxes and they can get the dole and then avoid most of the new taxes.

1) Privatise Health care, something so important should never be under the control of the central government with a socialised system.

2) Begin the privatisation of Education and introduce education vouchers.

3) Reward businesses that create jobs.

4) Cut the Public sector employment numbers by a quarter million,

5) Cut taxes and begin pumping billions into Infrastructure, New Motorways to within 30 miles of every area, High Speed Rail connecting every county, massive upgrades of the countries National Electricity Grid, Fibre to every home, massive improvements in the road network.

6) Cut Vat to 10%, Abolish VRT, bring Petrol and Diesel down to 75c/litre, increase native energy, Wind, Peat, Oil, Gas to be expolited to reduce our dependence on energy imports. Unsign the Kyoto Protocol, Voluntary emissions cuts, flat taxes, All private cars to be taxed at €400/annum, all Diesels at €300/yr.

Ireland could become the star of Europe by taking the sword to massive behemoths and turn this country around with massive infrastructure projects leading to proper inward investment. One National state owned Bank, Banking sector fully nationalised and break the link with the ECB interest rates, our Interest rates should currently be higher not the lowly places they are now. Massive restrictions on risky lending, more impetus on start up Enterprises not loans for Holidays to Lanzarote.

More Radical options:

Ireland withdraw from the EU,

Relaunch the Punt pegged to the Pound Sterling.

Abolish the Senate, Give the President power to dissolve the Dail

Begin funding Northern Ireland, massive new Motorway projects connecting Donegal across the North back into the Republic. The Republic of Ireland to take full financial responsibility for Northern Ireland, thus subsuming full control and intergrating it into a United Ireland.

Federalisation of the Country, Provincial councils having most control over their own internal affairs. Abolishment of County Councils in favour of the Province Councils, Provincial Councils and President able to overrule Dail Eireann and dissolve Parliament.

Thatcher?
Want to destroy our country as well, eh?

Donny5

rossie1977 wrote: »

it ain't, its a republic, vote for people to make the decisions for you, in a real democracy (of which i can't think of any) the people would vote on all decisions to be taken

It's a representative democracy. You are factually incorrect.

whatawaster

netwhizkid wrote: »

Well with my plans all Health Care and Social Benefits would be left up the individual and thus this would eliminate well over 60% of current Government spending, couple this with tax reductions and you have a far higher tax take as people would no longer be crippled by our taxation system. This would lead to increased revenues and there would still be plenty of money left over to build infrastructure. We are wasting so much money in this country with the socialism cradle to grave ethos of Marxism.

State money should be used for to grow the economy not preventing people from work and distorting the Market, Healthcare is a service and State Intervention here is wrecking the market, by privatising healthcare and introducing more competition it will actually lower most peoples health care costs as PRSI would be gone and those who live healthily will be rewarded financially in not needing healthcare, cigarette smokers and obese people are then punished financially for their lifestyle choices whereas at the moment everyone has to pick up the tab for them. It would be a far more fairer system overall.

Privatizing Healthcare would not lower anyone’s healthcare costs. It would, however, lead to thousands of people being denied the treatment they need, with resulting deaths, probably huge increases in healthcare premiums.

“Those who live healthily would be rewarded financially.” Wow. Not every illness is caused by lifestyle choices you know. How would your “state” look after people with disabilities, would they be hit by your welfare cuts as well? Would they be offered free medical care for life, or does that not fit with your right-wing agenda?

Pygmalion

netwhizkid wrote: »

5) Cut taxes and begin pumping billions into Infrastructure, New Motorways to within 30 miles of every area, High Speed Rail connecting every county, massive upgrades of the countries National Electricity Grid, Fibre to every home, massive improvements in the road network.

Why should the government get involved in roads and electricity, that's socialism at it's worst? Roads and the elctricity grid should be privately owned, and if it's not profitable to bring them to the country then leave them in the cities.
Damn communists in AH.

Ireland could become the star of Europe by taking the sword to massive behemoths and turn this country around with massive infrastructure projects leading to proper inward investment. One National state owned Bank, Banking sector fully nationalised and break the link with the ECB interest rates, our Interest rates should currently be higher not the lowly places they are now. Massive restrictions on risky lending, more impetus on start up Enterprises not loans for Holidays to Lanzarote.

Weren't you complaining about Socialism previously in your post?
Do you know what socialism is?

Sean Quagmire

'We all must share the burden of this terrible time'

translation...

'Tax payers will pay for the mistakes of the powerful. No gratuitude, or apology will be given.

p.s. Vote for us, so we can remain the most overpaid politicians in the world '

the whole system makes me sick.

ashyle

In Spain they pay quite a high rate of income tax, it increases if you earn over a certain amounts. But they have free health care and no private insurance companies. If we had proper healthcare, inclusive of everyone, transport that just didnt focus on dublin city, proper childcare facilities and no toll bridge fees i'd pay whatever!

mikemac

Nope, and thinking about it I use very few services.

Ok, education and transport.
But not been to hospital for years, or used welfare, never used childcare services and last time I contacted the gardai they let me down. Hope to never use the fire service but I'm glad they are there

So if I was to use a mé féin attitude, I'd say I pay 41% tax and use very few services. And the three biggest are health, welfare and education and I've not used them in years.

So my answer is no.
It's different to people in different situations.

Wibbs

Basically no as I have little to no faith in the civil service nor the elected representatives of this country(of pretty much all side TBH). I'm pretty sure they would screw it up. They've screwed up the biggest economic growth in the history of this island. It was like seeing an amadan get a lotto win and spend it it ten ferraris. Time and time again the crap has floated to the surface of our governing bodies. píss up in a brewery time. Until that changes no way.

ScumLord

mikemac wrote: »

Nope, and thinking about it I use very few services.

Ok, education and transport.
But not been to hospital for years, or used welfare, never used childcare services and last time I contacted the gardai they let me down. Hope to never use the fire service but I'm glad they are there

So if I was to use a mé féin attitude, I'd say I pay 41% tax and use very few services. And the three biggest are health, welfare and education and I've not used them in years.

So my answer is no.
It's different to people in different situations.

But what about the rest of your family? You will eventually need the other services as you get older and can't work to well because your old.

mikemac

Fair point, I knew someone would post that as soon as I finished my post.

As I said: If I was to use a mé féin attitude

Was just giving an example for me and didn't speak for people I know
And of course it'll change as I get older

At this point of time issues like overcrowded classrooms don't affect me. But they will someday probably.
And there are things I worry about right now that you wouldn't even think of Scumlord.
Everyone has different situations

Donny5

mikemac wrote: »

Nope, and thinking about it I use very few services.

Ok, education and transport.
But not been to hospital for years, or used welfare, never used childcare services and last time I contacted the gardai they let me down. Hope to never use the fire service but I'm glad they are there

So if I was to use a mé féin attitude, I'd say I pay 41% tax and use very few services. And the three biggest are health, welfare and education and I've not used them in years.

So my answer is no.
It's different to people in different situations.

You have to look at your lifetime cost to the state against your total tax burden. There are also benefits each citizen enjoys living in a secure, stable state like Ireland, such as a calm, policed society (at least by international standards), access to healthcare (public or private, all are subsidised to some extent), services that are invisible until they fail or are required, like as you mentioned, the fire service, but also the Defence Forces, sewage services, mountain rescue and the ambulance services, the coast guard, the numerous charities funded publicly, foreign development aid, various regularity bodies who ensure food quality and public safety.

Collectively, we get a lot of bang for our buck, but it is true that those in receipt of the least state assistance pay proportionately the most. Such is life. That said, I disagree strongly with inefficiency in the public sector, and, in particular, the inability to terminate public sector employees in a timely fashion.

mrblack

Donny5 wrote: »

Collectively, we get a lot of bang for our buck, but it is true that those in receipt of the least state assistance pay proportionately the most. Such is life. That said, I disagree strongly with inefficiency in the public sector, and, in particular, the inability to terminate public sector employees in a timely fashion.

Here here to that last sentence. I believe the whole legal framework in the Peoples Republic of Ireland which makes it nearly impossible (without a payoff) to terminate employees for unacceptable performance has caused the whole country and especially the Public sector to lapse into disrepute and disdain. My favourite is the Lifeguard who fell asleep 7 times and was finally sacked-Result is kids lives were safer but he got a nice little payoff by a stupid judge! No accountability means crappy performance and what is the end Result-NAMA after incompetent Bankers and their regulators were asleep at the wheel.

No new taxes without accountability for the spending is my opinion.

Lu Tze

Donny5 wrote: »

That said, I disagree strongly with ... the inability to terminate public sector employees in a timely fashion.

I'll be back

An Taoiseach BC

Dear boards.ie users.
This report is merely a suggestion to the government. While some of these suggestions may be taken on board and implemented, not all will.
It is certainly not this governments objective to lower the quality of life for the general public. Though hard decisions may need to be made, they are simply to help us maintain our quality of life and provide a cushion from this worldwide recession.
Is mise le meas,
Brian Cowen.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Taoiseach BC wrote: »

Dear boards.ie users.
This report is merely a suggestion to the government. While some of these suggestions may be taken on board and implemented, not all will.
It is certainly not this governments objective to lower the quality of life for the general public. Though hard decisions may need to be made, they are simply to help us maintain our quality of life and provide a cushion from this worldwide recession.
Is mise le meas,
Brian Cowen.

Presumeably, that'll be the ones that target the rich and greedy that got us into this mess in the first place?

Donny5

An Taoiseach BC wrote: »

Dear boards.ie users.
This report is merely a suggestion to the government. While some of these suggestions may be taken on board and implemented, not all will.
It is certainly not this governments objective to lower the quality of life for the general public. Though hard decisions may need to be made, they are simply to help us maintain our quality of life and provide a cushion from this worldwide recession.
Is mise le meas,
Brian Cowen.

He seems not to be very popular, this Brian Cowen fellow.

netwhizkid

whatawaster wrote: »

Privatizing Healthcare would not lower anyone’s healthcare costs. It would, however, lead to thousands of people being denied the treatment they need, with resulting deaths, probably huge increases in healthcare premiums.

“Those who live healthily would be rewarded financially.” Wow. Not every illness is caused by lifestyle choices you know. How would your “state” look after people with disabilities, would they be hit by your welfare cuts as well? Would they be offered free medical care for life, or does that not fit with your right-wing agenda?

Private care homes and institutes can help with the burden of disabilities but I beleive that this burden can be met by the families and their insurers. We need to reduce welfare if we are to have an equitable society, I think it is incomprehensible that Ireland's middle classes who are already struggling to make mortgage payments etc. are going to be nailed further to the cross by higher taxes to pay for socialised medicine and massive welfare payments including to 80,000+ non citizens. Our welfare system is too much and does not need to be cut it needs to be eradicated.

Socialised medicine has Ireland on the brink of bankruptcy and people have to learn to look after these things themselves. People in this country expect to get everything for free, and are would be quick to complain about paying for an important medical procedure which under a private system could be done fast and with a consultant or surgeon of your choice, not like the current system where you can't pick your doctor and you will be likely waiting a minimum of 1 year for any sort of procedure.

This is not acceptable, the amount of people who can not afford if very small, but most of them would rather p1ss away any income they have down the pub every night or be driving flash car bought on credit instead of taking responsibility for the important things in life. But at the moment who cares as the state will be left to pick up the tab.

Pygmalion wrote: »

Why should the government get involved in roads and electricity, that's socialism at it's worst? Roads and the electricity grid should be privately owned, and if it's not profitable to bring them to the country then leave them in the cities.
Damn communists in AH.

Weren't you complaining about Socialism previously in your post?
Do you know what socialism is?

For an economy to function you need infrastrucutre
and we in Ireland lack badly in this department, ask any budding IT individuals and they will tell you of the nightmares re: Broadband. There are certain things the state needs to be involved in and other things they should have no part or act in.

Roads should be publicly owned for freedom of movement and the current system here works fine except the taxation raised from such is not being used, if all VRT, Road Tax, Fuel Duty, Tolls and VAT were put into our roads they would all be 10 lanes highways paved with platinum, but this money is wasted on things like, Socialised Medicine, Welfare, Public liberal Education, and thousands of excess drones in the public service.

I know well what Socialism is and Ireland is about to head up there with France soon to be become another failure. If we were to become a socialist state we should at least do it right, but our current system is one of a total failure and is a toxic mix of the free market and Communism and as we know they are like Oil and water totally immiscible.

Cut taxes, cut services, boost the economy and encourage the rise of the right.

Stark

netwhizkid wrote: »

Cut taxes, cut services, boost the economy and encourage the rise of the right.

Isn't that what we were doing?

netwhizkid

Stark wrote: »

Isn't that what we were doing?

We were cutting taxes, but increasing public spending as incoming revenues were increasing year on year. Had Ireland cut the public service during the boom years and stopped the property madness we would have unemployment now of around a manageable 5 to 7% and we would most likely not have entered recession at all or be coming out if it now had we. At the moment Unemployment is around 13% and our economy is in Depression, Ireland's economy is now in worse shape than many of the 10 new countries that entered the EU in 2004. We are only a few quarters away from National Bankruptcy and when that happens those on the dole would be glad to get 100€/ week. We are teethering on the edge of a bottomless cliff.

Donny5

netwhizkid wrote: »

We were cutting taxes, but increasing public spending as incoming revenues were increasing year on year. Had Ireland cut the public service during the boom years and stopped the property madness we would have unemployment now of around a manageable 5 to 7% and we would most likely not have entered recession at all or be coming out if it now had we. At the moment Unemployment is around 13% and our economy is in Depression, Ireland's economy is now in worse shape than many of the 10 new countries that entered the EU in 2004. We are only a few quarters away from National Bankruptcy and when that happens those on the dole would be glad to get 100€/ week. We are teethering on the edge of a bottomless cliff.

Haven't you heard, mate, it's all over tomorrow.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

netwhizkid wrote: »

Private care homes and institutes can help with the burden of disabilities but I beleive that this burden can be met by the families and their insurers. We need to reduce welfare if we are to have an equitable society, I think it is incomprehensible that Ireland's middle classes who are already struggling to make mortgage payments etc. are going to be nailed further to the cross by higher taxes to pay for socialised medicine and massive welfare payments including to 80,000+ non citizens. Our welfare system is too much and does not need to be cut it needs to be eradicated.

Hang on: Who forced them to take out said mortgages..? You take a 40 year mortgage on a 25k salary, you're taking a massive gamble. If you argument is to remain consistant, anyone who takes out a mortgagae and then finds themsleves unable to pay it has only themsleves to blame.

Socialised medicine has Ireland on the brink of bankruptcy and people have to learn to look after these things themselves. People in this country expect to get everything for free, and are would be quick to complain about paying for an important medical procedure which under a private system could be done fast and with a consultant or surgeon of your choice, not like the current system where you can't pick your doctor and you will be likely waiting a minimum of 1 year for any sort of procedure.

No, bad management of the health system has Ireland on the brink of bankrupcy. Or at least is a cause. The general point of the thread is "would you pay extra to get it extra" a la the Scandanaivian model. What you fail to mention is that the quality in Scandanaivia is also much higher.

This is not acceptable, the amount of people who can not afford if very small, but most of them would rather p1ss away any income they have down the pub every night or be driving flash car bought on credit instead of taking responsibility for the important things in life. But at the moment who cares as the state will be left to pick up the tab.

Here, I completely agree with you. But taking out a mortgage is effectively buying a house on credit. While it is by no means unimportant, it is not something that should be done lightly, and people who do it recklessly should not be commiserated with. The mortgage culture of the 90s/00s is as much to blame for the economic mess.

For an economy to function you need infrastrucutre
and we in Ireland lack badly in this department, ask any budding IT individuals and they will tell you of the nightmares re: Broadband. There are certain things the state needs to be involved in and other things they should have no part or act in.

Roads should be publicly owned for freedom of movement and the current system here works fine except the taxation raised from such is not being used, if all VRT, Road Tax, Fuel Duty, Tolls and VAT were put into our roads they would all be 10 lanes highways paved with platinum, but this money is wasted on things like, Socialised Medicine, Welfare, Public liberal Education, and thousands of excess drones in the public service.

I know well what Socialism is and Ireland is about to head up there with France soon to be become another failure. If we were to become a socialist state we should at least do it right, but our current system is one of a total failure and is a toxic mix of the free market and Communism and as we know they are like Oil and water totally immiscible.

Cut taxes, cut services, boost the economy and encourage the rise of the right.

If I had faith in the population, I would agree with you. But you go down this road, I would fear that the same credit problem you elude to in your previous point.

LATE ADDITION: I would completely agree with you about the social welfare cuts, though. Enough to sustain and that's it.

Pygmalion

netwhizkid wrote: »

There are certain things the state needs to be involved in

Things which will benefit you directly.

and other things they should have no part or act in.

Things which won't.

So basically poor people should be left to die rather than be given medical treatment they can't afford and they don't deserve an education?

netwhizkid

Pygmalion wrote: »

Things which will benefit you directly.


Things which won't.

So basically poor people should be left to die rather than be given medical treatment they can't afford and they don't deserve an education?

Yes are you happy now.

Pygmalion

netwhizkid wrote: »

Yes are you happy now.

Yes.