Did members of RDF shoot KOSB ?

R.Dub.Fusilier

i picked this up from another forum and thought it would be interesting to see if anybody has any more information. http://z9.invisionfree.com/royaldublinfusiliers/index.php?showtopic=180





In July 1914 the Irish Volunteers shipped 800 rifles into Howth Harbour . The Kings Own Scottish Borderers were dispatched to intersept the shipment but only managed to capture a few of the rifles after a brief scuffle with some volunteers . On the way back to their barracks the KOSB were boohed and jeered and had some missiles thrown at them by Dubliners . When they reached the junction of Bachelor’s Walk and Liffey Street they formed up with fixed bayonets and fired into the citizens of Dublin . Many were injured and some killed.

Did members of the RDF fire on the KOSB later while on active service in France ? The quotes from the books below would suggest so but did anyone else ever hear about it or read it somewhere else ?

‘’ One of those killed by the savage volley was a woman whose son was serving with the Dublin Fusiliers .This private soldier wrotea letter to the newspapers calling on all Dublin Fusiliers ,and all soldiers who sympathised with him, to attend the funeral .’’
The Connaught Rangers : T.P. Kilfeather

Sean Harling ‘’That same day , maybe because they hadn’t stopped the gun-running , the Scottish Borderers opened fire on a crowd and they killed some people down at Bachelor’s Walk , along the quays . And not many people know this , but they had to be taken out of this country afterwards and they were sent to France . When they were there the Dublin fusiliers mowed them down for killing those people in bachelor’s walk.’’

Curious Journey : Kenneth Griffith

McArmalite

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

i picked this up from another forum and thought it would be interesting to see if anybody has any more information. http://z9.invisionfree.com/royaldublinfusiliers/index.php?showtopic=180





In July 1914 the Irish Volunteers shipped 800 rifles into Howth Harbour . The Kings Own Scottish Borderers were dispatched to intersept the shipment but only managed to capture a few of the rifles after a brief scuffle with some volunteers . On the way back to their barracks the KOSB were boohed and jeered and had some missiles thrown at them by Dubliners . When they reached the junction of Bachelor’s Walk and Liffey Street they formed up with fixed bayonets and fired into the citizens of Dublin . Many were injured and some killed.

Did members of the RDF fire on the KOSB later while on active service in France ? The quotes from the books below would suggest so but did anyone else ever hear about it or read it somewhere else ?

‘’ One of those killed by the savage volley was a woman whose son was serving with the Dublin Fusiliers .This private soldier wrotea letter to the newspapers calling on all Dublin Fusiliers ,and all soldiers who sympathised with him, to attend the funeral .’’
The Connaught Rangers : T.P. Kilfeather

Sean Harling ‘’That same day , maybe because they hadn’t stopped the gun-running , the Scottish Borderers opened fire on a crowd and they killed some people down at Bachelor’s Walk , along the quays . And not many people know this , but they had to be taken out of this country afterwards and they were sent to France . When they were there the Dublin fusiliers mowed them down for killing those people in bachelor’s walk.’’

Curious Journey : Kenneth Griffith

Very interesting post there RDF. I'll see what I can find, I suspect it was probably threats made in the aftermath and heat of the incident but we'll see. The murder of unarmed civilians at Bachelors Walk shocked many in Ireland and beyond and the ranks of the Irish Volunteers swelled as a result. Their was 3 killed, Mrs. Duffy, James Brennan and Patrick Quinn, and thirty-two were injured. So possibly the woman in question was this Mrs Duffy. Also one man later died of bayonet wounds. Naturally of course the cowardly british army scum were never punished by the authorites.

It should also be noted the contrast between the landing of guns at Howth and those at Larne for the unionists in which not a single attempt was made to apprehend a rifle or bullet.

There was a song made up about the murders calling for revenge called "Bachelor's Walk"

On Bachelor's Walk a scene took place, which I'm sure had just been planned.
For the cowardly Scottish Borderers turned and fired without command.
With bayonets fixed they charged the crowd and left them in their gore,
But their deeds will be remembered in Irish hearts for evermore.

God rest the souls of those who sleep apart from earthly sin,
Including Mrs. Duffy, James Brennan and Patrick Quinn;
But we will yet avenge them and the time will surely come,
That we'll make the Scottish Borderers pay for the cowardly deeds they've done[/QUOTE]

McArmalite

Here is some information I received from a fellow nationalist I sent a PM to regarding the murders on Bachelors Walk but I cannot find anything if the RDF shot them in retaliation in France -

Are you asking about the event in 1914 because yes I do know about this. I actually just posted some footage on the video thread that I once found on the funeral of these victims. The shooting did indeed take place, if that is what you are asking. Here is a link -

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66072

I know that Tim Pat Coogan gives details in one of his books but I cant think of the title. I will check my books and get back to you.

Is this what you wanted?

And also http://www.macgreevy.org/style?style=text&source=crit.yeats.002.xml&action=show

neilled

McArmalite wrote: »

Very interesting post there RDF. I'll see what I can find, I suspect it was probably threats made in the aftermath and heat of the incident but we'll see. The murder of unarmed civilians at Bachelors Walk shocked many in Ireland and beyond and the ranks of the Irish Volunteers swelled as a result. Their was 3 killed, Mrs. Duffy, James Brennan and Patrick Quinn, and thirty-two were injured. So possibly the woman in question was this Mrs Duffy. Also one man later died of bayonet wounds. Naturally of course the cowardly british army scum were never punished by the authorites.

It should also be noted the contrast between the landing of guns at Howth and those at Larne for the unionists in which not a single attempt was made to apprehend a rifle or bullet.

There was a song made up about the murders calling for revenge called "Bachelor's Walk"

On Bachelor's Walk a scene took place, which I'm sure had just been planned.
For the cowardly Scottish Borderers turned and fired without command.
With bayonets fixed they charged the crowd and left them in their gore,
But their deeds will be remembered in Irish hearts for evermore.

God rest the souls of those who sleep apart from earthly sin,
Including Mrs. Duffy, James Brennan and Patrick Quinn;
But we will yet avenge them and the time will surely come,
That we'll make the Scottish Borderers pay for the cowardly deeds they've done

[/QUOTE]

If my understanding is correct, the Son of Mrs Duffy was a serving British Soldier and was about the only uniformed member of the BA to be found on the streets the day of the funerals. Apparently he marched beside her coffin in Uniform.

McArmalite

neilled wrote: »

If my understanding is correct, the Son of Mrs Duffy was a serving British Soldier and was about the only uniformed member of the BA to be found on the streets the day of the funerals. Apparently he marched beside her coffin in Uniform.

Really :eek: Bet you don't have any link or source to prove that

neilled

McArmalite wrote: »

Really :eek: Bet you don't have any link or source to prove that

I don't at the moment, I will have to research it further particularly since the claim was made by a republican :pac:!

I heard the story in question at a talk on the history Na Fianna Eireann given on Pearse's old house in Pearse Street about 4 or 5 years ago that I attended. NFE has always claimed to be a scouting movement and as someone who'd been involved in scouting from an early age, I was keen to find out about who these so called "scouts" were.

The speaker had been talking about the history and role of nfe, noting that what begun as an educational momvent became militarised. He went on to speak of the role that nfe had in unloading the guns imported on the asgard at howth, acting as look outs etc and spiriting them away. He then mentioned the bachelors walk incident as an asside claiming that on the day of the funerals the only British soldier to be found on the streets was one who's mother had been killed at the Bachelors Walk incident and was marching beside the coffin, the rest having been withdrawn to barracks due to ill feeling from the public over the incident in question, and then moved on to talk about the roles of nfe during the easter rising etc.

R.Dub.Fusilier

neilled wrote: »

on the day of the funerals the only British soldier to be found on the streets was one who's mother had been killed at the Bachelors Walk incident and was marching beside the coffin, the rest having been withdrawn to barracks due to ill feeling from the public over the incident in question,

i think that it is a shame that his comrades didnt attend the funeral , but if their orders are to stay in barracks there is not a lot they can do i suppose.

arnhem44

I can't find any reference to this anywhere,I did come across a pdf from the New York Times who ran a story on the Uprising and said the RDF were disappointed with the British for shipping in troops because they thought they were to lenient on the rebels,how they thought that is beyond me.

R.Dub.Fusilier

arnhem44 wrote: »

I can't find any reference to this anywhere

i'm not surprised. i have read the two books mentioned and many more besides and i have not seen it anywhere before. someone may find something.

Linus67

I have heard about incidents when Catholic Irish soldiers fired on their British Allies in World War 1.
I read an interesting book called "Irish Regiments in the Great War: Discipline and Morale" by Timothy Bowman. Has anyone here read it?

R.Dub.Fusilier

Linus67 wrote: »

I have heard about incidents when Catholic Irish soldiers fired on their British Allies in World War 1.
I read an interesting book called "Irish Regiments in the Great War: Discipline and Morale" by Timothy Bowman. Has anyone here read it?

havent read it but i think i might . have seen it in book shops in town.

McArmalite

Linus67 wrote: »

I have heard about incidents when Catholic Irish soldiers fired on their British Allies in World War 1.
I read an interesting book called "Irish Regiments in the Great War: Discipline and Morale" by Timothy Bowman. Has anyone here read it?

Well tell us about some of these incidents mentioned in the book. Is it true about the RDF and this thread ?

McArmalite

neilled wrote: »

I don't at the moment, I will have to research it further particularly since the claim was made by a republican :pac:!

I heard the story in question at a talk on the history Na Fianna Eireann given on Pearse's old house in Pearse Street about 4 or 5 years ago that I attended. NFE has always claimed to be a scouting movement and as someone who'd been involved in scouting from an early age, I was keen to find out about who these so called "scouts" were.

The speaker had been talking about the history and role of nfe, noting that what begun as an educational momvent became militarised. He went on to speak of the role that nfe had in unloading the guns imported on the asgard at howth, acting as look outs etc and spiriting them away. He then mentioned the bachelors walk incident as an asside claiming that on the day of the funerals the only British soldier to be found on the streets was one who's mother had been killed at the Bachelors Walk incident and was marching beside the coffin, the rest having been withdrawn to barracks due to ill feeling from the public over the incident in question, and then moved on to talk about the roles of nfe during the easter rising etc.

Ok, I was a bit sharp with your there, still I get plenty trying to catch McArm out. Well the reason why I was critical of your post is that I find it hard and indeed wouldn't it be bizarre, for her son to turn up at her funeral in the army uniform of those who had murder his mother ?

Maybe the tour guide got his lines crossed and if so your not to blame for posting what he said.

Linus67

McArmalite wrote: »

Well tell us about some of these incidents mentioned in the book. Is it true about the RDF and this thread ?

I was not referring to the book when I spoke of Catholic Irish soldiers firing on their British Allies. It does not mention that in the book at all. The book is mainly about court martials and how the Irish Regiments behaved.

McArmalite

neilled wrote: »

If my understanding is correct, the Son of Mrs Duffy was a serving British Soldier and was about the only uniformed member of the BA to be found on the streets the day of the funerals. Apparently he marched beside her coffin in Uniform.[/QUOTE]

neilled wrote: »

I don't at the moment, I will have to research it further particularly since the claim was made by a republican :pac:!

I heard the story in question at a talk on the history Na Fianna Eireann given on Pearse's old house in Pearse Street about 4 or 5 years ago that I attended. NFE has always claimed to be a scouting movement and as someone who'd been involved in scouting from an early age, I was keen to find out about who these so called "scouts" were.

The speaker had been talking about the history and role of nfe, noting that what begun as an educational momvent became militarised. He went on to speak of the role that nfe had in unloading the guns imported on the asgard at howth, acting as look outs etc and spiriting them away. He then mentioned the bachelors walk incident as an asside claiming that on the day of the funerals the only British soldier to be found on the streets was one who's mother had been killed at the Bachelors Walk incident and was marching beside the coffin, the rest having been withdrawn to barracks due to ill feeling from the public over the incident in question, and then moved on to talk about the roles of nfe during the easter rising etc.

Well Neilled I owe you an apology, you were a 1,000% correct that the murdered woman, whose name was Mrs Duffy, that her son " marched beside her coffin in Uniform ". And appearently her nephew. I myself find it very strange to wear the uniform of the army that had murdered his mother, possibly a ruse to try and give the impression he had no bittereness while planning to get the KOSB as RDF asks in the opening post " Did members of the RDF fire on the KOSB later while on active service in France ? "
I was interested in the whole scenerio regarding the Howth gun running and the murders at Bachelor's Walk and decided to check up on it at Pearse St liberary as I don't live far from it. So I found the following article which if you read down near the end under Dismissed Constables you will see " Following the remains fo Mrs Duffy were her son and nephew, wearing the khaki uniform of the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. " Well done nellied

( Just hope the link works as it's quite long )

http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SU5ELzE5MTQvMDcvMjkjQXIwMDUxMA%3D%3D&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom