At Swim Two Birds

pappyodaniel

I hear an Irish production company involving Brendan Gleeson and Colin Farrell are making a film version of the Flann O'Brien classic At Swim Two Birds. Well I hear it's a classic, it sounds awfully complicated as I heard the book has 3 beginnings 3 middles and 3 endings (?) where the writer has written himself into the book (??) etc etc.

Has anyone read this book? I've read The Third Policeman and it nearly broke me but was definately worth it. I'm wondering should i read it if i found the 3rd Policeman extremely complicated especially with deSelby's footnotes at the bottom of each page.

HalloweenJack

Haven't read the Third Policeman but I started At Swim Two Birds before Christmas. I gave up, partly because I got some books for Christmas but partly because I found it really tough going.

It is an interesting and funny book, I just don't have a clue how they'll put into a film, although Naked Lunch was made into a film so I guess anything's possible.

Amazotheamazing

Well worth reading but not easy going. Some parts of it are hilarious, a fair bit of it went over my head though.

pog it

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I hear an Irish production company involving Brendan Gleeson and Colin Farrell are making a film version of the Flann O'Brien classic At Swim Two Birds. Well I hear it's a classic, it sounds awfully complicated as I heard the book has 3 beginnings 3 middles and 3 endings (?) where the writer has written himself into the book (??) etc etc.

Has anyone read this book? I've read The Third Policeman and it nearly broke me but was definately worth it. I'm wondering should i read it if i found the 3rd Policeman extremely complicated especially with deSelby's footnotes at the bottom of each page.

OP. I am a Flann O'Brien fanatic.

Read in this order:
1.Dalkey Archive
2.The Poor Mouth
3.The Third Policeman
4.At Swim

sron

pog it wrote: »

OP. I am a Flann O'Brien fanatic.

Read in this order:
1.Dalkey Archive
2.The Poor Mouth
3.The Third Policeman
4.At Swim

I'd throw Dalkey Archive to the back of that list. I imagine reading it first would lessen one's enjoyment of The Third Policeman. It's also not very good and so wouldn't give you the best first impression.

pog it

sron wrote: »

I'd throw Dalkey Archive to the back of that list. I imagine reading it first would lessen one's enjoyment of The Third Policeman. It's also not very good and so wouldn't give you the best first impression.

Completely disagree with you. Dalkey Archive is a great book, and I believe one of the books Flann himself was most proud of having written.

Also, it is the easiest to read of all his books, so is an ideal way to get used to Flann's books.

Sergeant

I'd also recommend reading the Dalkey Archive first. At-Swim is fantastic stuff, but as the man himself said "tis a very queer affair, unbearably queer perhaps". In the old-fashioned sense of the word.

Some of the collections of his Cruiskeen Lawn pieces for the Irish Times are fantastic as well.

Freddy B

The Third Policeman is my favourite book of all time. Have read it three times and each time I get something new from it. The De Selby footnotes are hilarious - the "savant" who has problems differentiating between men and women

At Swim-Two-Birds is certainly a difficult read but well worth persisting with. I thought the Dalkey Archive was quite weak, a Third Policeman "lite".

Amazotheamazing

Have to say I'm interested in O'Brien's "The Hard Life", can it really be that bad when his early books and Irish Times columns were so good? Did the quality of his column undergo a similar decline? Have to say the idea of it being written just to be banned to drum up interest in his earlier work is both brilliant and depressing, much like the stories of Fitzgerald buying copies of his books in LA to make his publishers think there was demand for his work. Alcohol and writers eh?

Sergeant

Anthony Cronin's biography paints a picture of an increasingly frustrated, and irrational character in his later days. Whilst I disagree with some of Cronin's assessments, namely that the time spent writing newspaper columns was time wasted, it still remains an excellent read, and really paints a picture of literary life in Dublin in the postwar years.

Amazotheamazing

Sergeant wrote: »

Anthony Cronin's biography paints a picture of an increasingly frustrated, and irrational character in his later days. Whilst I disagree with some of Cronin's assessments, namely that the time spent writing newspaper columns was time wasted, it still remains an excellent read, and really paints a picture of literary life in Dublin in the postwar years.

Must get around to reading it. Why does he consider the column time-wasting? A lot of it still stands up, indeed, it's better by far than anything being published in Irish papers today.

sron

pog it wrote: »

Completely disagree with you. Dalkey Archive is a great book, and I believe one of the books Flann himself was most proud of having written.

I have a hard time believing that. It was the rejection of The Third Policeman that sent him to the drink; I doubt regurgitating the atomic theory stuff and De Selby (both in inferior forms, in my opinion) was very a pleasing experience for him. I think in fact that it's the most depressing book of his I've read. You can sense the religious doubt in the beginning and thoughts of what might have been at the end. It seems more personal than the others to me.

Just because of the borrowed storyline though, I think The Third Policeman should be read first, otherwise it would lessen the wholly confusing atmosphere of the book.

tyler71

Agreed. At Swim Two Birds and the Third Policeman are head and shoulders above the rest of his work, although an Beal Bocht does have its moments. I love his Irish Times work though, his collected works from the Times I would get before either the Dalkey Archive or the Hard Life - I think life would be a little bit poorer without Keats and Chapman!

pog it

sron wrote: »

I have a hard time believing that. It was the rejection of The Third Policeman that sent him to the drink; I doubt regurgitating the atomic theory stuff and De Selby (both in inferior forms, in my opinion) was very a pleasing experience for him. I think in fact that it's the most depressing book of his I've read. You can sense the religious doubt in the beginning and thoughts of what might have been at the end. It seems more personal than the others to me.

Just because of the borrowed storyline though, I think The Third Policeman should be read first, otherwise it would lessen the wholly confusing atmosphere of the book.

Sron- I replied to the OP's message, as one does here! So maybe go back and have a read of it. They had found The Third Policeman 'complicated' so I suggested The Dalkey Archive for easier reading- i.e. to help OP get in on Flann O'Brien's writing!

Then I suggested going on to Poor mouth and then back to The Third Policeman.

Hope it was of some help to OP.

pog it

tyler71 wrote: »

Agreed. At Swim Two Birds and the Third Policeman are head and shoulders above the rest of his work, although an Beal Bocht does have its moments. I love his Irish Times work though, his collected works from the Times I would get before either the Dalkey Archive or the Hard Life - I think life would be a little bit poorer without Keats and Chapman!

You too missed the point of my reference to the Dalkey Archive. I didn't say it was better than the others- I said it was a way into Flann O'Brien's writing for the OP.

I rest my case.

tyler71

But the Dalkey Archive is mediocre - why should you recommend that somebody reads a poor book? I don't get this 'way into' reading an author - you like an author or you don't and tbh it sounds like the OP just doesn't like O'Brien that much - and if you don't like an author, just move on and find one you do. Generally you read the lesser works of an author because you liked the good stuff so much and you're hoping the other ones will be as good - I reckon a lot of Joseph Heller's books post Catch 22 probably sold on that basis alone.
Which is why I still recommend the Irish Times work - short snappy funny stuff that doesn't require any concentration but a lot of quality in there.

sron

pog it wrote: »

Sron- I replied to the OP's message, as one does here! So maybe go back and have a read of it. They had found The Third Policeman 'complicated' so I suggested The Dalkey Archive for easier reading- i.e. to help OP get in on Flann O'Brien's writing!

Then I suggested going on to Poor mouth and then back to The Third Policeman.

Hope it was of some help to OP.

I wasn't saying that one should read The Third Policeman first, just read it before Dalkey Archive, a book which isn't likely to endear one to O'Brien as it really is the nadir of his writing.

I agree with the above, that Cruiskeen Lawn is an easier way into reading him.

McCruiskeen

I'm always very scared when a film is made of a book I love. Let's hope they don't make a balls of it. Saw a production of the Third Policeman recently and was excellently done considering it is a not a straightforward book. I hope the maker's of at Swim saw it too.

willietherock

This book was the biggest pile horse manure I've ever read.

pog it

tyler71 wrote: »

But the Dalkey Archive is mediocre - why should you recommend that somebody reads a poor book? I don't get this 'way into' reading an author - you like an author or you don't and tbh it sounds like the OP just doesn't like O'Brien that much - and if you don't like an author, just move on and find one you do. Generally you read the lesser works of an author because you liked the good stuff so much and you're hoping the other ones will be as good - I reckon a lot of Joseph Heller's books post Catch 22 probably sold on that basis alone.
Which is why I still recommend the Irish Times work - short snappy funny stuff that doesn't require any concentration but a lot of quality in there.

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I hear an Irish production company involving Brendan Gleeson and Colin Farrell are making a film version of the Flann O'Brien classic At Swim Two Birds. Well I hear it's a classic, it sounds awfully complicated as I heard the book has 3 beginnings 3 middles and 3 endings (?) where the writer has written himself into the book (??) etc etc.

Has anyone read this book? I've read The Third Policeman and it nearly broke me but was definately worth it. I'm wondering should i read it if i found the 3rd Policeman extremely complicated especially with deSelby's footnotes at the bottom of each page.

This is the OP's thread Tyler- try to read (listen) and help accordingly

InvisibleBadger

The Dalky Archive is a far more straight forward story and less hard work than At Swim/Third Policeman, so if someone wanted to read a lighter version of O'Brien maybe it's a good place to start.
There is a collection of jokes taken from his columns called "The Various Lives of Keats and Chapman" and well worth reading foor some bad(funny) puns.

old hippy

I've read all his other works but I couldn't fathom At Swim... I'm ashamed because I love his stuff; just couldn't get my head round that particular novel. Must give it another go.

tyler71

A question for the OP - do you want to read At-Swim or do you just feel that you should because it's a recognised work? I'm a believer that there's so many books out there you shouldn't be reading books you don't really want to. Generally you like an author or you don't and no amount of 'building up' will make you like somebody's style.
When I read the Third Policeman I was completely blown away and immediately devoured everything else of O'Brien I could get my hands on, so when I read your post and got this ambivalent attitude about it, I'm thinking O'Brien is probably not to your taste, especially considering the Third Policeman has a (relatively) clear style and plot when compared to At-Swim.
So if you're still curious, then wait for the film (I'd be a film first , book second person anyway but that's probably another thread) it's not like you'll lose any enjoyment from the book because you know the plot from the film - because as far as I remember, there isn't one!

Eliot Rosewater

tyler71 wrote: »

A question for the OP - do you want to read At-Swim or do you just feel that you should because it's a recognised work? I'm a believer that there's so many books out there you shouldn't be reading books you don't really want to.

Indeed, and what's more, there's so many books that are recognized and important that there's no need to pick and choose within that category. But I don't blame the OP for trying to get a better grasp of O'Brien as an author; reading one work is rarely enough.

Anyway, I'm expecting At Swim Two Birds in the post next week. At least I know I'll like the opening!

BopNiblets

I'm reading it at the momment, or trying to, it's a lot of old nonsense sometimes, but I love his writing.
Third Policeman was a bit mad too, but I lost that so can't re-read.

McCruiskeen

tyler71 wrote: »

A question for the OP - do you want to read At-Swim or do you just feel that you should because it's a recognised work? I'm a believer that there's so many books out there you shouldn't be reading books you don't really want to.

That is a good point tyler, but generally works are recognised because they are something exceptional or highly regarded so by making an attempt to read them you are generally onto a winner.

Then there is always Ulysses

Do people actually read books just to say that they have read them??? I don't think so (or at least hope not)

Eliot Rosewater

McCruiskeen wrote: »

Do people actually read books just to say that they have read them??? I don't think so (or at least hope not)

There are some people who read certain books to be able to say that they've read them, I think. Ulysess is usually the prime example of this. It's really a book directed at academics and full-time readers, and while I could read something I wasn't understanding, I couldn't read 1000 pages of it.

I don't think anyone reads books in general just to say they have. It wouldn't be good value: you could spend a week reading and still only have a handful of books gone through.

Monkeybonkers

Sergeant wrote: »

Some of the collections of his Cruiskeen Lawn pieces for the Irish Times are fantastic as well.

I've just finished reading 'The Various Lives of Keats and Chapman' which is a collection of Cruiskeen Lawn pieces and I have to say that I wasn't overly impressed with them. I think that they would work well as a weekly column (which is how they were intended) but didn't think that they worked well as a collection. I found myself getting bored quite quickly reading one short piece after another. That's not to say that they aren't well written and some are quite funny but I found it a bit of an overload reading one after the other. It's like when somebody tells you joke after joke after joke. After a while they just aren't funny!
I'm not giving up on O Brien though. I want to read one of his novels to see what his style is like for longer pieces. I really hope that I enjoy them as he is credited as being one of our top writers. I'll not let my first foray into his work turn me off him and one of his novels is next on my list. I'll try one of the ones mentioned above.

Lunar Junkie

I found At Swim Two Birds maddening the first time I tried to read through it, then picked it up again a few months later and found I was enjoying it much more as something to dip in and out of and just read random sections here and there. The plot makes very little sense and there are passages that are hard to relate to anything but I love the humour and writing style. It strikes me as an almost completely unfilmable book though, I'll be very interested to see if this proposed movie ever gets made and what approach they take to it.

kieslowski

I would rank At Swim as my favourite book of all time. His virtuosy command of the language and of writing techniques is simply staggering in this book while the interlinked stories are sheer comedy gold. I can see why it's confusing to start with and is certainly not a conventional novel but after a while the fog clears!

The Third Policeman is an amazing book aswell. It is staggering how the Irish Independent brought out a 'Great Irish Writers' wall chart some years ago and neglected to include the imperious Flann O'Brien! Idiots.

De Selby's theories on darkness still make me laugh.