Irish analog turn-off date ?

zagmund

Guys,

I know there are varying interpretations of the terminology for the DTT tests/trials and that nobody seems to be able to give a definitive date for when DTT will be launched & stable, etc . . . I can kind of live with that for the moment. I get both analog and digital on my Mvision box, so I don't mind too much when the digital disappears for a few days at a time.

I thought I read somewhere that the analog turn-off was definitely going to be in 2012 - is this correct, or is it likely to be one of these 'Irish' deadlines that turns into 2015 because they haven't turned on the digital replacement ?

I guess what I'm getting at is . . . if the analog turn off is more or less fixed, then is anyone speaking up for the consumer and trying to lobby the relevant powers to get it into gear on the digital front. The logic here is that when Joe Consumer goes out to buy a new TV for the last 2 years he has not been able to buy one which will be 'future-proof'. If I buy a old style TV without a DVB-T tuner, it's not going to be much use to me when they turn off the analog and turn on the digital. Sure, I can buy an STB, but I wouldn't need to if the digital spec had been firmed up and published when I bought my TV.

I was thinking the electrical retailers might have said something, but then I remembered that it's all money in their eyes. If they sell someone a TV this year and an STB next year, then they've made two sales. It's not in their interest to sell people the best future-proof TV now.

Sorry, may be rambling a little here, but I'm just wondering what consumer-side actions or initiatives are in place (if any).

z

Antenna

There is no 'definitive' date

I can't see a single analogue turn off date for the whole county?

Dublin (Three Rock transmitter) would be far easier to have an analogue switch-off than much of rest of the country for technical and other reasons, though one wonders will Dublin actually get switched off first?

zagmund

I just came across this - “Central to the success of national rollout will be a public information campaign by the Department explaining digital television to the nation. My Department will begin this national information campaign in March 2009, in advance of the autumn 2009 launch date. Analogue switch-off must be complete by 2012." on the Green Party website - http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/minister_ryan_announces_results_of_digital_terrestrial_television_trial

I think I'll fire off a mail and see what the minister has to say. It's not very green using all this extra electricity to power a stb as well as the TV, not to mention having to manufacture and buy the stb in the first place.

z

scath

My understanding is that analogue switchoff is still on the cards for 2012, simply as NI are definitely switching off in 2012 and it seems sensible from the interference of channels on the radiowave point of view with UK signals once they turn up the power following analog switch off. The BCI did leave the door open to 2015 (http://www.bci.ie/DTT/index.html) but I'd say RTÉ, in line with the the Minister who has the power to set the ASO and sets December 2011 or date after as the ASO date,will push ahead with 2012 to keep us in step with the rest of the EU. That could be the end of 2012 though I'd say it will be co-timed with Northern Ireland: http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/image/0004/23638/Ulster_v2.2.jpg and http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch/utv_region. That's around August/September I think. So I guess it makes sense and I advocated in my dissertation on DSO and DTT that a joint switchover for the whole island makes sense if we're not going to go for a regional switchover and instead go for the big band switchover.

No harm to pop off the email. Launch is likely next Autumn 2010 ie Sept as Onevision are to make an announcements with the BCI of their plans and all seems to be going well with RTÉ NL negotiations. (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0828/1224253397507.html)

The info campaign needs to start but I'd say that's been held off on awaiting clarity with Onevision/BCI negotiations as the pubic do like clarity and it makes more sense for RTÉ to only have pay TV boxes on the market as if Onevision is successful then its better for RTÉ NL who Onevision would be renting infrastructure use from. The info campaign can include Onevision when there is clarity and I'd say in fairness to the Dept, that that is the reason for the delay in the campaign which is understandable.

The http://www.digitaltelevision.ie website states clearly about MPEG4. I wonder will Onevision decide to go for DVB-T2 aswell? They might not, but then there'll be some T2 boxes available by summer 2010 in great numbers for Mancester (Granada) region, one of the biggest populated transmitter coverage areas in the UK anyhow. But I don't know would the cost be prohibitive for RTÉ NL to add the necessary stuff on the masts.

So the information side and having Irish DTT ready stickers etc is an issue. I've made this point to Tesco and gotten no reply as they could have people coming back to them when they find out about DTT and that their TV isn't Irish DTT compatible. Th thing about it is, retailers here shouldn' bother selling UK model TVs, and simply refuse to sell them. But they want to sell TVs and if they haven't enough MPEG4 stock it could be argued what are they to do. They don't want to be telling consumers to hold off on their purchase for Irish DTT.

The thing is that they may just need to say that this TV will work with Irish DTT but will need a set top box. Unless the person wants to wait with their old TV until early 2010. But a retailer wouldn't want to be saying that.

The Cush

zagmund wrote: »

I thought I read somewhere that the analog turn-off was definitely going to be in 2012 - is this correct, or is it likely to be one of these 'Irish' deadlines that turns into 2015 because they haven't turned on the digital replacement ?

This was the situation on April 14 last. Since that post Boxer has withdrawn and the launch of Irish DTT has been delayed by up to 12 months.
Based on this and the fact that many people have less money in their pockets a two year period from DTT launch to Analogue Switchoff in my opinion is too short and will slip. Other EU countries may also fail to meet the 2012 deadline.

Minister Eamon Ryan in a reply to a Dail question on June 18 last said he was still confident that the DTT network will be built in time for the switch off of the analogue television services in 2012.

The Broadcasting Act was also passed into law in July with no fixed date date for analogue switchoff, leaving the decision in the hands of the present or future Minister. (analogue switchoff section attached)

scath

For another thread on TV license notice on Dept's website Interesting clarrification regarding portable TV definitation. 7 inches screen I guess is the max?

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/83B1ECC5-7EDB-4E1B-AF6D-9AD3155684D3/0/SI319of2009.pdf. Can mod move it...

S.I. No. 319 of 2009
TELEVISION LICENCE (EXEMPTION OF CLASSES OF TELEVISION
SET) ORDER 2009

....Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural
Resources, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 142(3) of the
Broadcasting Act 2009 (No. 18 of 2009) hereby order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Television Licence (Exemption of Classes
of Television Set) Order 2009.

2. In this Order—
“non-portable” in relation to a television set, does not include any television set
capable of simultaneously or near-simultaneously exhibiting television
broadcasting services transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of any of the
following networks, namely–

(a) analogue terrestrial television networks,
(b) cable television networks,
(c) digital terrestrial television networks,
(d) internet protocol television networks,
(e) multipoint microwave distribution system television networks
(analogue or digital), and
(f) satellite television networks;

“portable” in relation to a television set, means that the television set is designed
to be easily carried manually by a person and the set and, if it is used in
conjunction with another apparatus, that apparatus, is capable of displaying an
image of not more than 160 square centimetres.

3. The following classes of television set are declared to be classes of
television set to which section 142 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 (No. 18 of 2009)
does not apply, namely—

(a) a non-portable television set capable of exhibiting television
broadcasting services distributed by means of the publicly available
Internet, and

(b) a portable television set.

Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in
“Iris Oifigiúil” of 11th August, 2009.......

Explanation: EXPLANATORY NOTE
(This note is not part of the Instrument and does not purport to be a legal
interpretation.)

This Order provides for the exemption from the television licensing
requirements of section 142 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 of (a) portable devices
with a display size of not more than 160 cm2 capable of exhibiting television
services e.g. mobile phones or personal digital assistants, and (b) other devices,
e.g. personal computers or laptops, capable of accessing the Internet and
television-like services streamed via websites.

This order does not exempt from the television licensing requirements devices
(e.g. personal computers or laptops) with a display size of more than 160 cm2,
capable of displaying television channels (e.g. RTE´ Two, TV3, TG4, BBC One,
3e) distributed by conventional broadcast networks (e.g. cable, satellite, IPTV,
analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) using a television tuner card
or related device (whether or not such devices are also capable of accessing the
Internet or television-like services streamed via websites).

My calculations are off, I wouldn' be good at that sort of thing, so that means laptops are now added to TV license as a new category if TV card is there. So that's a new category..Dammit. Well you know what to do then with the TV card. Makes sure its external!!! And its up to you whether u keep it or not lol

fat-tony

scath wrote: »

For another thread on TV license notice on Dept's website Interesting clarrification regarding portable TV definitation. 16 inches screen I guess is the max?

http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/NR/rdonlyres/83B1ECC5-7EDB-4E1B-AF6D-9AD3155684D3/0/SI319of2009.pdf. Can mod move it...

S.I. No. 319 of 2009
TELEVISION LICENCE (EXEMPTION OF CLASSES OF TELEVISION
SET) ORDER 2009

....Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural
Resources, in exercise of the powers conferred on me by section 142(3) of the
Broadcasting Act 2009 (No. 18 of 2009) hereby order as follows:

1. This Order may be cited as the Television Licence (Exemption of Classes
of Television Set) Order 2009.

2. In this Order—
“non-portable” in relation to a television set, does not include any television set
capable of simultaneously or near-simultaneously exhibiting television
broadcasting services transmitted, relayed or distributed by means of any of the
following networks, namely–

(a) analogue terrestrial television networks,
(b) cable television networks,
(c) digital terrestrial television networks,
(d) internet protocol television networks,
(e) multipoint microwave distribution system television networks
(analogue or digital), and
(f) satellite television networks;

“portable” in relation to a television set, means that the television set is designed
to be easily carried manually by a person and the set and, if it is used in
conjunction with another apparatus, that apparatus, is capable of displaying an
image of not more than 160 square centimetres.

3. The following classes of television set are declared to be classes of
television set to which section 142 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 (No. 18 of 2009)
does not apply, namely—

(a) a non-portable television set capable of exhibiting television
broadcasting services distributed by means of the publicly available
Internet, and

(b) a portable television set.

Notice of the making of this Statutory Instrument was published in
“Iris Oifigiúil” of 11th August, 2009.......

Explanation: EXPLANATORY NOTE
(This note is not part of the Instrument and does not purport to be a legal
interpretation.)

This Order provides for the exemption from the television licensing
requirements of section 142 of the Broadcasting Act 2009 of (a) portable devices
with a display size of not more than 160 cm2 capable of exhibiting television
services e.g. mobile phones or personal digital assistants, and (b) other devices,
e.g. personal computers or laptops, capable of accessing the Internet and
television-like services streamed via websites.

This order does not exempt from the television licensing requirements devices
(e.g. personal computers or laptops) with a display size of more than 160 cm2,
capable of displaying television channels (e.g. RTE´ Two, TV3, TG4, BBC One,
3e) distributed by conventional broadcast networks (e.g. cable, satellite, IPTV,
analogue terrestrial, digital terrestrial or MMDS) using a television tuner card
or related device (whether or not such devices are also capable of accessing the
Internet or television-like services streamed via websites).

I guess if u've a 17 inch laptop and a external or internal TV card... it if the inspector calls and u thought u'd get away handy without a TV and TV license, then could he/she check your laptop bag? But u can watch TV without a license if u've no TV set and ur laptop is a 16inch with a TV card. Hmmm...

I'm not sure where you worked out the 16 inch screen size
I've highlighted the relevant part of the note which says laptops etc. are not exempt.
The screen size mentioned is 160 square centimeters, which on a widescreen display would be 16cm x 10cm (or thereabouts). This is equivalent to about 6.2" x 3.5" or 7" across the diagonal. It's aimed at PDA or mobile phone screen sizes. So if you have a tuner card capable of receiving DTT or analogue in your netbook or laptop with a screen greater than about 7" across the diagonal you need a TV licence;)

Mike 1972

if the analog turn off is more or less fixed, then is anyone speaking up for the consumer and trying to lobby the relevant powers to get it into gear on the digital front. The logic here is that when Joe Consumer goes out to buy a new TV for the last 2 years he has not been able to buy one which will be 'future-proof'. If I buy a old style TV without a DVB-T tuner, it's not going to be much use to me when they turn off the analog and turn on the digital. Sure, I can buy an STB, but I wouldn't need to if the digital spec had been firmed up and published when I bought my TV.

In the UK (where analouge has already been turned off in some regions) there are still analouge only TV's in the shops.

In fact its only in the last six months or so that the majority of sets on sale have had DTT tuners.

By rights it should have been made compulsary for all sets (starting with large screensizes and working down) to have them once DTT tuners went below £25 (Like the Americans did)

reslfj

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In the UK (where analouge has already been turned off in some regions) there are still analouge only TV's in the shops.

In fact its only in the last six months or so that the majority of sets on sale have had DTT tuners.

Very many viewers will use a PVR with two tuners - one for the disk and one for viewing another channel live while recording.
Then your TV set will need no DVB-T (or in the UK need no DVB-T2). Nor will it need any kind of MPEG-2/4 decompressor chip.

All that is needed is a HDMI cable from the PVR to the TV set.

By rights it should have been made compulsary for all sets (starting with large screensizes and working down)

Even if you do not want a PVR - the standard is not often stable over time. In the UK it should clearly be DVB-T2, but such devices are not available yet (expect the first for Christmas).

France, Norway, Estonia and even the UK have selected the MPEG-4 version that supports 720p and 1080i but not 1080p. They have selected the currently best chips on the market.
But EBU now says that it may well be possible to compress full 1080p50 as much as 1080i and chips for dekompressing 1080p are maybe 12 month into the future. http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/testmaterial/ibc09_10things_1080p50.pdf

So were these countries to early in selecting the MPEG-4 profile ?

Sometimes it is far better to stay with an outdated standard - that is inexpensive - for a year or three and then change everything.
You just have to be honest about it!

Lars

Mike 1972

reslfj wrote: »

Very many viewers will use a PVR with two tuners - one for the disk and one for viewing another channel live while recording.
Then your TV set will need no DVB-T (or in the UK need no DVB-T2). Nor will it need any kind of MPEG-2/4 decompressor chip.

All that is needed is a HDMI cable from the PVR to the TV set

Yes but most people want a resonable level of functionality with as few boxes/cables/remotes/plugs as possible