Is it time our ref's are held accountable?

deccy15

In light of some of the decision's that were made by Mr kirwan today and various other ref's during the year is it time that they are held accountable to a referee's board like they have in the premiership in england? Serious mistakes shouldn't go unpunished as they currently do.

Maybe something like a month's ban from inter-county reffing or something similiar, i know all the ref's are amatuer and shouldn't be treated too harshly but if they are not up to the job they shouldn't be there in the 1st place!!!!

Nalced_irl

I do fully agree that refs should be in some way held accountable. Today KK got the better of his bad decisions but to be honest i dont think he was biased, just didnt do a good job in general. A direct ban i dont think should be the answer, but i think if a ref proves he simply isnt up to the task, he shouldnt be given matches of such importance until he shows he can handle them. We all know its easier to see things more clearly on tv than it is from a referees position but sometimes, like today, i think you just have to admit that the ref made too many simple mistakes and simply wasnt up to it.

deccy15

Nalced_irl wrote: »

I do fully agree that refs should be in some way held accountable. Today KK got the better of his bad decisions but to be honest i dont think he was biased, just didnt do a good job in general. A direct ban i dont think should be the answer, but i think if a ref proves he simply isnt up to the task, he shouldnt be given matches of such importance until he shows he can handle them. We all know its easier to see things more clearly on tv than it is from a referees position but sometimes, like today, i think you just have to admit that the ref made too many simple mistakes and simply wasnt up to it.

Yeah i definetly don't think the ref set out today to be biased! But something definetly has to be done as various refs durin the summer have shown they're just not up to it. That is the problem tho there is too many ref's around at the moment that just aren't up to it!!

run_Forrest_run

jaysus lads, lets remember these refs are family men, they have jobs like the rest of us and they do this for the love of the game and very little else.
Refs I'm sure are already often subjected to abuse for the decisions they may make during the heat of battle but if we start banning them or make them face strict consequences then we will be even more screwed in trying to find new blood to come into the job.

However I do understand your beef with the ref and one thing I would like to see being introduced into games is when the ref blows the whistle for a foul the ref must inform the players and the management the nature of the foul, a bit like how they do it in the NFL (Americal football) where the ref announces the foul across the tannoy in the stadium, or in a more subtle manner like in rugby.

AndRoiD

is it time for the GAA to go the rugby route and at least experiment with the TMO option? at least try it out in the league.

mikemac

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

However I do understand your beef with the ref and one thing I would like to see being introduced into games is when the ref blows the whistle for a foul the ref must inform the players and the management the nature of the foul, a bit like how they do it in the NFL (Americal football) where the ref announces the foul across the tannoy in the stadium, or in a more subtle manner like in rugby.

I do like that aspect of American football and some refs have a reputation for giving realy details explanations. Some refs are almost celebrities already!
This guy and also the guy who did the last Super Bowel

If you introduce it in the GAA it's going to slow down the game seriously.
And while it'll have advantages it'll going to have critics also

I don't know about suspending refs for simple mistakes
Instead of banning then maybe an intensive course and a few matches with an assessor watching them and giving feedback?
Then and only then do you discuss suspension

deccy15

mikemac wrote: »

I do like that aspect of American football and some refs have a reputation for giving realy details explanations. Some refs are almost celebrities already!
This guy and also the guy who did the last Super Bowel

If you introduce it in the GAA it's going to slow down the game seriously.
And while it'll have advantages it'll going to have critics also

I don't know about suspending refs for simple mistakes
Instead of banning then maybe an intensive course and a few matches with an assessor watching them and giving feedback?
Then and only then do you discuss suspension

Maybe have em micced like rugby ref's and like they do in the int. rules series!! yeah that course is a good idea!! it beats what we have at the moment which is just bad reffing going unpunished!!

MisterAnarchy

Well it would be nice if the GAA actually appointed neutral refs from experienced hurling counties and switch the refs every so often .
Why is it Barry Kelly nearly refs every major Kilkenny match ??
I guess the GAA had to switch the ref for this years final after Kelly refereeing the last 3 but why appoint another Leinster ref ?

K4t

The red card was correct and the penalty was incorrect.

Tipp were given a lot of 'easy' frees. 18 frees awarded to Tipp as opposed to 8 for KK. His decisions definitely didn't end up benefiting one team over the other. They evened themselves out over the cours eof the match. No point being bitter about it.

AndRoiD

K4t wrote: »

The red card was correct and the penalty was incorrect.

Tipp were given a lot of 'easy' frees. 18 frees awarded to Tipp as opposed to 8 for KK. His decisions definitely didn't end up benefiting one team over the other. They evened themselves out over the cours eof the match. No point being bitter about it.

i dont think this thread is based solely on today although i think it has helped to highlight the amount of serious errors in judgement. lets not forget the tyrone and cork semi final which was imo a complete disaster.

ANTIFA!

I thought the ref was very good today tbh. Jesus you should see the shambles that is refereeing in the LOI. Now thats bad refereeing.

deccy15

K4t wrote: »

The red card was correct and the penalty was incorrect.

Tipp were given a lot of 'easy' frees. 18 frees awarded to Tipp as opposed to 8 for KK. His decisions definitely didn't end up benefiting one team over the other. They evened themselves out over the cours eof the match. No point being bitter about it.

I'm not being bitter at all as i had no allegiances to either team in today's game! Just because the bad decisions evened themselves out doesn't make it right or ok and no-one is saying the bad decisions are being made out of bias towards one team or the other, they are being made out of incompetence!!!

old boy

what do they have to be responsible for, they read the rule book,they apply the rules, take for instance the present cork co. board sec. he is famous for his knowlage of the rules. in fact he is getting a fancy position in croke park because he has read the book and can explain it, limerick co. board have a guy who is 95 attending meetings in croke park because of his knowlage of the rule book, both these guys i assume because of their age have free travel, now the $64,000 question is do they get travel expenses, do not ask me i do not know or care.

allthedoyles

K4t wrote: »

The red card was correct and the penalty was incorrect. They evened themselves out over the course of the match. No point being bitter about it.

Its not bitterness , however it is clear to see , that a referee decision changed the course of this game today , and gave KK a huge advantage .

So , in my view , it is time that referees were held accountable , and time for the GAA to look closely at refereeing in general .

homerjay2005

K4t wrote: »

No point being bitter about it.

no, i think the general view is that Kilkenny got more than their fair of decisions yesterday and one big one which changed the game. Tipp were coasting up until the penalty, which with 7 minutes to go, changed the game. Soft frees are not an excuse for major decisions. I for one, feel that Kilkenny got away with alot and indeed, were lucky to have 15 on the field, there were 3 incidents which warranted at least yellows with 2 IMO being reds.

joey54

Truth is no referee goes out out with the intention to make a wrong decision. Like you and I they are humans and errors can occur. Instead of looking at ways to punish them we must instead examine ways to help make their job that little bit easier.

The problem with having a video type referee is implementation. It might be easy enough to do it in the likes of Croke Park but a about the other places around the country?

rebel girl 15

As far as I know, all inter county refs are assessed and are given feedback on their performance. They are given the chance to review the game and change decisions regarding cards. There is a refs assessment, whereby they have to prove they are physically and mentally up to the challenge. I know for a fact that Kirwin went away for a week to train especially for this match, with his linespeople and umpires.

I was very very annoyed at the decision to give a penalty, it was either a free in or a free out, since the foul took place outside the square, Kirwin played advantage and the KK player took too many steps then.

The refs are held accountable, by an independent committee - it is done, but done quietly, out of the way. Remember that they are human as well.

I think the TMO is out, too fiddly - I'd like to see two refs in a game, miked up, with more powers given to the linespeople and umpires. Hurling especially is such a fast game, that having two would be much better.

Professey Chin

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

As far as I know, all inter county refs are assessed and are given feedback on their performance. They are given the chance to review the game and change decisions regarding cards. There is a refs assessment, whereby they have to prove they are physically and mentally up to the challenge. I know for a fact that Kirwin went away for a week to train especially for this match, with his linespeople and umpires.

I was very very annoyed at the decision to give a penalty, it was either a free in or a free out, since the foul took place outside the square, Kirwin played advantage and the KK player took too many steps then.

The refs are held accountable, by an independent committee - it is done, but done quietly, out of the way. Remember that they are human as well.

I think the TMO is out, too fiddly - I'd like to see two refs in a game, miked up, with more powers given to the linespeople and umpires. Hurling especially is such a fast game, that having two would be much better.

This is an issue alright.With football the ref can keep up a lot better since its naturally a slower game.With hurling though,the play area can go 100metres down the field in a matter of seconds.No matter how fit a ref is he isnt usain bolt.
With 2 refs though they could easily end up tripping over each others calls

blackbelt

Referees should not be punished i.e given a ban but when you look at Brian Crowe,he was hung out to dry after the Cork v Meath game in 2007 and Bannon would have too but he is retiring.

Such bans would discourage people taking up refereeing.The only route to go where serious mistakes are made is to give that referee a lower profile game in future until improvement is shown.I also agree fully with the sideline officials being given more power to inform the referee of off the ball fouls and in cases where a challenge happens and the players back is to the referee when both players are challenging for the ball in the large rectangle.Remember Stephen O Shaughnessy tackle against Tyrone in the the replay?A perfectly legit tackle that looked like a foul from the referee's perspective.Another sideline official who would have been in place could have informed the referee from a better angle.

CyberDave

Why don't they just follow rugbys lead and have a video ref in the stand. That would solve a lot of problems.

Professey Chin

CyberDave wrote: »

Why don't they just follow rugbys lead and have a video ref in the stand. That would solve a lot of problems.

Thought the video ref is in a seperate location and doesnt know the score so he cant be influenced?Or is that just urban myth.

The problem with a video ref is deciding when he's used and does only the ref get to decide or can teams appeal decisions(if so how many appeals or in what situations)? Then it can come down to the ref being 100% in himself even if he's wrong.Kirwan was adament about the penalty yesterday but was clearly wrong.The video ref mightnt even have been used

flanzer

I was at the match yesterday and it was clear from very early on that the ref wasn't at the races. Tipp didn't get the decisions on 3/4 occasions when they should have and Kilkenney didn't get the decision on 1 or 2 occasions.

The problem was, that the game was end to end in fractions of seconds and the ref couldn't keep up with play and was forced to make incorrect decisions. On occasions, he looked boll0xed. The modern senior game is so much faster than in days gone by. Players can puck the ball further than before. Croke Park's pitch isn't getting any smaller either. In fact I think it's the largest pitch in Ireland.

The GAA may need to adopt something like what they have in Aussie rules by having several refs. Maybe have a ref in each half, particularily for Hurling. The Football can survive with one ref.

HHH

How Kirwan got the game in the first place is beyond me. Being from near the tipp border with offaly, appointing a Ballyskenagh man to ref the match was ludicrous. The rivalry around that area is unreal and most offaly people will be delighted to see tipp beaten. Dunne had to go but it was no penalty.

Lex Luthor

K4t wrote: »

His decisions definitely didn't end up benefiting one team over the other.

one decision did and it changed the game. The penalty. It wasn't and certainly changed it in their favour

homerjay2005

i aint read any reports or papers today, is there much about the refs performance?

MisterAnarchy

HHH wrote: »

How Kirwan got the game in the first place is beyond me. Being from near the tipp border with offaly, appointing a Ballyskenagh man to ref the match was ludicrous.

Frankly its outrageous .
A Leinster ref has refereed the last 4 finals ,all won by a Leinster team.
The ref should be from a neutral county.
You can be sure if the ref had been from Munster the last 4 years ,Kilkenny would have been up in arms.

blackbelt

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

Frankly its outrageous .
A Leinster ref has refereed the last 4 finals ,all won by a Leinster team.
The ref should be from a neutral county.
You can be sure if the ref had been from Munster the last 4 years ,Kilkenny would have been up in arms.

I can assure you no referee at any level would or should have a bias against or for a certain team especially from the province.The referee's central committee made the appointments and they were happy with Kirwan.Ballyskenagh,which is not far from Roscrea I believe,should not be a factor and neither should the province.

The referee made a bad decision and this seems to have put a shadow on his overall performance but at no time did it appear to me that he showed any bias and I think overall his performance was satisfactory.If he made a mess out of the game,it wouldn't have been the spectacle it was.

I think Kilkenny would have went on to win it anyway without the penalty.Tipperary were suffering after getting Dunne sent off and they went off the boil for 5-7 minutes and this was when Kilkenny struck.They play for the 70+ and any window of time they have to punish a team,they will take it.

super_metroid

they should have a tv ref for penalties and red cards in the big games

Nalced_irl

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

jaysus lads, lets remember these refs are family men, they have jobs like the rest of us and they do this for the love of the game and very little else.
Refs I'm sure are already often subjected to abuse for the decisions they may make during the heat of battle but if we start banning them or make them face strict consequences then we will be even more screwed in trying to find new blood to come into the job.

However I do understand your beef with the ref and one thing I would like to see being introduced into games is when the ref blows the whistle for a foul the ref must inform the players and the management the nature of the foul, a bit like how they do it in the NFL (Americal football) where the ref announces the foul across the tannoy in the stadium, or in a more subtle manner like in rugby.

I fully understand that refs are doing this through their love of the game and of course that is admirable. I dont think they should be pulled up in front of a board for their decisions but i think the GAA should choose more carefully for big matches. Also, i havent read the entire thread but what i have read seems to be focussing on the match yesterday and what decisions are right, wrong. Im not just talking about yesterday but in general. For top level games i think only the best should be chosen to officiate it. Also include umpires and linesmen. As i said in a previous thread, both umpires yesterday made simple errors where it was right in front of their face for 65s. One went in favour of each team so wasnt a big deal but they should have been able to spot both and make the correct call imo. Anyway, understand they are hard thankless jobs but i do feel the standard should be higher at this level.

Nalced_irl

blackbelt wrote: »

I can assure you no referee at any level would or should have a bias against or for a certain team especially from the province.The referee's central committee made the appointments and they were happy with Kirwan.Ballyskenagh,which is not far from Roscrea I believe,should not be a factor and neither should the province.

The referee made a bad decision and this seems to have put a shadow on his overall performance but at no time did it appear to me that he showed any bias and I think overall his performance was satisfactory.If he made a mess out of the game,it wouldn't have been the spectacle it was.

I think Kilkenny would have went on to win it anyway without the penalty.Tipperary were suffering after getting Dunne sent off and they went off the boil for 5-7 minutes and this was when Kilkenny struck.They play for the 70+ and any window of time they have to punish a team,they will take it.

Agree the ref didnt show bias but to be honest bb, i think he lost his handle on the game early on. He let alot go and the shoulder charge to the chest which should have at least been a booking, he gave a throw ball. I do think he performed badly but not in a biased way, however KK ended up getting the better of it overall. Also, as i said, i hate the term "letting the game flow", which does probably make it more entertaining to watch, but to do it, you let fouls go unpunished. I dont think that should be in a refs mind, a foul is a foul and he should be worried about the flow of the game. If some pundit calls you too strict afterwards, so be it. At least you did your job to the full.

super_metroid

i think there should be a tv referee for important games like this

this way we can hopefully avoid another shocking martygate incident

Erin Go Brath

super_metroid wrote: »

i think there should be a tv referee for important games like this

this way we can hopefully avoid another shocking martygate incident

All the ref has to do is look up at the big screen at the replay. If the technology is available it should be used.

mrgaa1

As a club referee for mostly underage games I can see a point where referees could be held accountable. The referee has to make a decision based on what he saw at the time. Thats what matters. Now the crux of the matter is as follows : was the correct rule applied? Thats all that matters. The rules of the game are very simple to follow but some are open to interpretation based on the actual incident. If the rules were actually applied in hurling we would not get the spectacle we had on Sunday - that is for sure. The speed of the game is incredible and you are relying a lot on your own knowledge of the game to ascertain what is going on in the tackle. From that the relevant rule should be applied.
A referee never gets it always right - thats the human nature of the situation. A lot of the time the ref can't see whats going on because the eyes in the back and side of the head don't be working So therefore if there are linesmen and umpires available they have to do this. But in most cases the linesmen and umpires are following the sliotar so they may not see whats going behind.

We can also be critical of the refs performance if he made a hash of things - from my own view it was a free out not a penalty for overcarrying. But you can not forget the goal opportunities that both teams missed and the wides that were hit - the ref is not responsible for that.
In Croke Park there were 82,000 watching the match, TV crews, 30 players, 30 subs and mentors and ONE ref. If the ref had the view that everyone else had he'd be man-of-the-match all the time.

However is also a major onus on all players/coachs & managers to be more aware of the rules.

hurling_lad

In general, there's a difference between a bad decision and a wrong decision.

A bad decision is, obviously, one that's wrong in hindsight but is arrived at using faulty reasoning, insufficient knowledge and/or just plain ignoring facts staring you in the face.

A wrong decision is one that's wrong in hindsight but is arrived at after making your best efforts to evaluate a situation and using sound reasoning or 'best guess' to make the decision.

In relation to refs, it's difficult to distinguish between the two, but if a ref is consistently making decisions that turn out to be wrong, it's likely that he's making bad decisions.

Given what a good game Kirwan had been having up to the penalty call, I think it's fair to put that decision down as a wrong decision rather than a bad one.

blackbelt

Nalced_irl wrote: »

Agree the ref didnt show bias but to be honest bb, i think he lost his handle on the game early on. He let alot go and the shoulder charge to the chest which should have at least been a booking, he gave a throw ball. I do think he performed badly but not in a biased way, however KK ended up getting the better of it overall. Also, as i said, i hate the term "letting the game flow", which does probably make it more entertaining to watch, but to do it, you let fouls go unpunished. I dont think that should be in a refs mind, a foul is a foul and he should be worried about the flow of the game. If some pundit calls you too strict afterwards, so be it. At least you did your job to the full.

Very true.I often get commended for "letting the game flow" whereas I would prefer to be commended for using common sense.I'm talking about a player hitting the deck from being slightly nudged in a 50-50 scenario (especialy in wet conditions),looking for a free and I wave play on.The responsibility of the referee is not to let the game flow.That is the players responsibility and I have often refereed good clean games between good,clean disciplined teams.

On other occasions I have been accused of being whistle happy in a free flowing match.When you see a midfielder put his hands on the back of another midfielder,the foul has to be called.

Forgot about the frontal charge,that should have been a free in,no question.I think Kirwan probably fluffed a bit on the big occasion and nerves got the better of him.I think the GAA is a bit inconsistent with their appointments.What they need to do is assess all referees during the league and championship and then call upon who they think has been the most consistent.

Marty Duffy is a good referee when he is on his game but when he isn't,he is dreadful and on two occasions he has made some really bad decisions (Dublin conceding a free against Tyrone in the league for catching a ball) and not adding on enough injury time in the Dublin v Meath game.He is now refereeing the All Ireland Football Final.

djScarey

The referee should be appointed by RTE, as they know how everything should be done correctly by the GAA.

Morrisseeee

I demand a replay............
/well it did happen a few years ago after a certain bad refereeing decision !!
Talking to a few KK fans today, they agree it wasn't a penalty and that the game utterly changed as a result, pun intended !

djScarey

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I demand a replay............
/well it did happen a few years ago after a certain bad refereeing decision !!
Talking to a few KK fans today, they agree it wasn't a penalty and that the game utterly changed as a result, pun intended !

Yeah, right. How many pints did you buy them?

Morrisseeee

How many pints did you buy them?

Loads....... :pac::D

But seriously, after the dust has settled and the emotions are somewhat back to normal, that was their view ! I suppose there are 'some' gracious KK fans out there, who call a spade a spade !

/ I can see the headlines now in the KK Echo, 'certain' fans to be hanged at a civic reception in the City center !!

djScarey

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Loads....... :pac::D

But seriously, after the dust has settled and the emotions are somewhat back to normal, that was their view ! I suppose there are 'some' gracious KK fans out there, who call a spade a spade !

/ I can see the headlines now in the KK Echo, 'certain' fans to be hanged at a civic reception in the City center !!

No, there MAY (I doubt it) be some Kilkenny fans who agree with you. It takes a bit more than that to call them "gracious."