Chararcter references

Collioure

Just filling out the new firearms license, for the character ref section, can one put down their wife and father as a character ref??

Rovi

Page 11 of 'De Guidelines' states (my highlighting):

(d) The names and addresses of 2 referees who may be contacted to attest to the character of the applicant - referees should be responsible adults and, as the issuing person may need to contact them and verify the information they provide, it is best they reside in the State. As two referees are required, it may be appropriate to differentiate in the nature of their knowledge of the applicant e.g. have one referee who has an intimate knowledge of the applicant such as a close relative and the other a person who, while knowing the applicant well e.g. in a social or work context for over 5 years, is not a relative. In the case of an applicant who has not resided long in the State, a referee who is able to demonstrate knowledge of the applicant and who is acceptable to the Garda Síochána will suffice. A referee must be of good character and shall be independent of the certifying process. (See Annex ‘B’ for further guidance).

...so, it would appear that a person's spouse or parent would be acceptable as one referee, but they should get someone unrelated to be the other.

Collioure

Rovi wrote: »

Page 11 of 'De Guidelines' states (my highlighting):


...so, it would appear that a person's spouse or parent would be acceptable as one referee, but they should get someone unrelated to be the other.

thank you

ianoo

i brought my renewals to the local station yesterday ,i had my wife as one of my referee's and was told by the seargent that a "wife" was unacceptable ,when i pionted out the guidelines and the wording he told me that they wont accept a wife as referee cos she would n't say anything bad about her husband!!!!!!i i had to get someone else before he'd accept them ,

looks like they are back to making up their own rules again....

ian

bunny shooter

ianoo,

I would simply tell him/her that I want it in writing, dated, stamped and signed by him/her that they were refusing to accept your wife as a reference and that they also refused to accept your application/s.

If he/she refused to give me said letter I'd go away and get a witness and go back and repeat the process

If they still refused to accept applications and/or give letter I would contact FPU with relevant detail of those involved.

IMO the days of taking this ****e are over :mad:

Rovi

The thing is though, 'The Guidelines' are just that, guidelines.

In the Foreword it states:

This document is a ‘Best Practice’ document which Chief Superintendents and Superintendents may have recourse to when considering applications for Firearms Certificates...

...and in the Introduction it states:

It must be stressed that these Guidelines are not a statement of the law:...

As far as I can find, the actual Act states:

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—
...(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.

I can't see anything in the Act or any Statutory Instruments expanding on the subject, and as the text in the Guidelines (post #2, above) is covered by the above two quotes ("Best Practice" and "not a statement of the law"), it appears to be entirely within the persona designata's remit to accept or reject whatever referee they see fit.

Odysseus

What has people's experience being of asking the refs for their DOB. I asked my boss as her son used to do some target shooting. Then I looked at the form and seen it was asking for their date of birth. I bottled it and asked a GP I work with but he had ethical issues around gun owner ship, so I had to ask my boss, I was mortified. For some people DOB is such a personal issue.

My own GP had agreed to down down as a ref, but I'm still waiting on his receptionist to get back to after I rang asking for his date of birth. She was somewhat puzzled even though I explained it clearly to her.

foxshooter243

Collioure wrote: »

Just filling out the new firearms license, for the character ref section, can one put down their wife and father as a character ref??

I dont know if this is of any benefit to you but I simply put down the name of two lads that I shoot with, these two lads are brothers, and are well known local businessmen.That was accepted by the FO, who ran a check on each of my reapplicatons.

Our man in Havana

They must want to run the names given thru pulse to check for form.

meathstevie

Make sure you don't ask any politicians...:D

Grizzly 45

As for the DOB thing, no M there.;)

Rovi

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

As for the DOB thing, no M there.;)

Neither is there one (or even a lowly 'C') on the Medical Enquiries section (Section 2.2), but that hasn't stopped this from appearing in the Guidelines:

The Guidelines, page 11 wrote:

NOTE: Section 2.2 of application form FCA1 must be completed in full by every applicant for a firearms certificate. (See Annex ‘B’ for further guidance).

Grizzly 45

Yeah..But as the Gardai say themselves they are only "guidelines":pac:
2can play that game.

jwshooter

there is going to be major problems with these guide lines .

is there not one for fox shooters to ring in when going lamping .like fxxk i will .

i have letters of hill sheep farmers to say i shoot foxes at nite at long range with a 243 using a mod on. will they refuse me the use of the firearm for this reason .my ground would span 15,000 acres written permission

this bill will spend the next 3 years in the courts if the supers dont use there heads. some chance of that

G17

jwshooter wrote: »

is there not one for fox shooters to ring in when going lamping .like fxxk i will

This one seems like a good idea.
Think of it from a non shooter's position, you get up at 3AM for a pee and see some lights shining down at your neighbour's place, ring the cops.

I always rang the local constabulary and land owner in my lamping days to say I'd be out. Many times I'd get a phone call, "you out lamping tonight?", "yep over in Ballywherever". We started doing this after an old lady rang the Gardaí one night in a panic to say she thought she was being robbed, never occurred to her that lampers were doing their requested work.

Also for jwshooter, wouldn't this guideline being adopted make life very difficult for your personal favourites and mine- deer poachers. If a lamp is being shone in place X one night, if it's not Jimmy, Mick or John who rang in already to say they'd be out from 11 to 2 tonight lamping foxes/rabbits, it's almost certainly a poacher, and deploy the troops. The Gardaí would have to respond as it would be an 'illegal activity'. I know remote locations are hard to get to etc. but it'd be better than nowt? They might at least ask the lads down the road stopping for tax to keep an eye out? Whaddaya think?

rrpc

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Yeah..But as the Gardai say themselves they are only "guidelines":pac:
2can play that game.

And the FCA1 is 'only' a form and the 'M' and 'C' are defined in the box that's for Garda use only.

DOB is asked for so that the referees can be checked on pulse. My advice is a family member and a club member, that way you don't have anybody acting as a referee that doesn't know you own firearms.

If you're not in a club, then someone that you may hunt with or at least is aware that you own a firearm. The farmer you've got land permission from, a neighbour that you know well etc.

johngalway

G17 wrote: »

This one seems like a good idea.

Nope, it's a real-time balls up. Cops actually taking the calls simply aren't going to want to know, It just creates more work for them and hems in anyone who has a brain and maybe changes their mind where they want to go shooting, or if they go at all.

Police forces in the UK have differing opinions of it. Some want it, others don't as it puts up their incident numbers. It also wastes the time of cops who should be out catching criminals IMO, not answering a call from me to know where I'm going shooting, when and with whom. Too big brother for me.

G17

johngalway wrote: »

Too big brother for me.

If your local Gardaí aren't interested in crimes with firearms, I'd be writing to the Commissioner immediately.

If you change your mind, make another phone call, say "I'm not going", or, "I'm heading over to xxx"?

I don't see the hassle here really, unless you don't have a mobile or you're in an area with poor coverage and can't make a phone call.

When people are acting within the law, Big Brother shouldn't be a problem, not suggesting for a moment you that don't act within the law johngalway, just making the point generally.

deerhunter1

bunny shooter wrote: »

ianoo,

I would simply tell him/her that I want it in writing, dated, stamped and signed by him/her that they were refusing to accept your wife as a reference and that they also refused to accept your application/s.

If he/she refused to give me said letter I'd go away and get a witness and go back and repeat the process

If they still refused to accept applications and/or give letter I would contact FPU with relevant detail of those involved.

IMO the days of taking this ****e are over :mad:

Well said it is time to stand up to these idiots,they are public servants. They are not there to dictate what they think is right without proof.

Sparks

G17 wrote: »

in an area with poor coverage and can't make a phone call.

Like, say, Co. Wicklow...

G17

Sparks wrote: »

Like, say, Co. Wicklow...

Fair enough.

If you can't beat 'em join 'em. It is a balls of suggestion after all.

Two fingers to the Roman oppressors.

From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.

Dromedary pretzel anyone?

Rovi

G17 wrote: »

Fair enough.

If you can't beat 'em join 'em. It is a balls of suggestion after all.

Two fingers to the Roman oppressors.

From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.

Dromedary pretzel anyone?

Splitter!

rrpc

G17 wrote: »

Fair enough.

If you can't beat 'em join 'em. It is a balls of suggestion after all.

Two fingers to the Roman oppressors.

From now on, I want you all to call me 'Loretta'.

Dromedary pretzel anyone?

Wolf nipple chips for me please

cavan shooter

I sorted the references issue very quickly by asking the FO who do you want on it actually my words were " Mick, in relation to these references, is the wife/Mother or brother and a friend you know ten odd years ok" Answer a yea, thats grand.

Done and dusted in 5 minutes.

Advice Pick up the phone and ask...

As for the fox shooting (lamping) we will see what happens there, I would be worried that the Garda dont undertstand what lamping is.

Twice I got stopped bt the guards Lamping on the first occassion When asked what I was doing he said "A Grand did ye get any, mind yerself etc etc" the second time a younger guard "was very distrustful", called in the reg, checked the licence, checked the gun, kept saying that its illeagle to shoot of the road, explained we were lamping not shooting, had wellies on us head torches, battery packs" what really annoyed me was his final comment, which basically was you havent heard the last of this

Next day I went straight to the station to complain.... Asked what law I had broken, Sergeant said to forget it he'll sort it. In fairness he rang me back.

To someone who doesnt know any better, going out at night with a rifle and lamp looks dodgy we need to educate them better and we need to ensure that we are always beyond reproach.

BASC has a good document on lamping.

foxshooter243

cavan shooter wrote: »

I sorted the references issue very quickly by asking the FO who do you want on it actually my words were " Mick, in relation to these references, is the wife/Mother or brother and a friend you know ten odd years ok" Answer a yea, thats grand.

Done and dusted in 5 minutes.

Advice Pick up the phone and ask...

As for the fox shooting (lamping) we will see what happens there, I would be worried that the Garda dont undertstand what lamping is.

Twice I got stopped bt the guards Lamping on the first occassion When asked what I was doing he said "A Grand did ye get any, mind yerself etc etc" the second time a younger guard "was very distrustful", called in the reg, checked the licence, checked the gun, kept saying that its illeagle to shoot of the road, explained we were lamping not shooting, had wellies on us head torches, battery packs" what really annoyed me was his final comment, which basically was you havent heard the last of this

Next day I went straight to the station to complain.... Asked what law I had broken, Sergeant said to forget it he'll sort it. In fairness he rang me back.

To someone who doesnt know any better, going out at night with a rifle and lamp looks dodgy we need to educate them better and we need to ensure that we are always beyond reproach.

BASC has a good document on lamping.

Good point there CS!- I was out lamping with a couple of mates a few years back and we were driving along a quiet back road when out of the blue a garda patrol car switches on its headlights and stops us. It had been sittin half hidden in a type of layby. Anyways a garda gets out and starts to check us out asking for driving licence etcetera and then demands to see inside the boot-fair enough we werent too far from the border and he may have had his suspicions-now what he didnt know was that the boot held two rather large lurchers who were like coiled springs when the car had stopped as they had anticipated they were about to be called into action. The driver of the car stepped out of the vehicle and turned the key in the boot and the garda at this stage was about to put his hand on the boot lid when the two mutts exploded from the boot:eek:!

The sight of that young fella running down the road, and his partner in hysterics behind the wheel of the patrol car, gives me a laugh to this day:D:D

johngalway

G17 wrote: »

If your local Gardaí aren't interested in crimes with firearms, I'd be writing to the Commissioner immediately.

not suggesting for a moment you that don't act within the law johngalway, just making the point generally.

I won't phone them as I'm committing no crime and I always have the landowners permission, therefore I'm doing nothing wrong so I see no need to call them.

Never thought that for a moment

G17

johngalway wrote: »

Never thought that for a moment

Phew, I hate solicitor bills!!




My point was simply that if the good guys (and that's many here), rang to say they'd be out one particular night and they were stopped as in the examples above, the Garda would say "ah, Mr. XXXXX, we've been expecting you!", as opposed to "you haven't heard the end of this" or "AAAAAAHHHH WEREWOLF in the boot, EEEEEKKKKK!!!!!"

But I concede it can't/won't suit everyone.

Grizzly 45

When people are acting within the law, Big Brother shouldn't be a problem,

G17,not a critique,but this is the oldest chestnut going."if you have done nothing wrong ,you have nothing to fear" is one that craws me.Maybe because I have relatives that lived in a totalitarian society[Hitlers 3rd Reich]where people were so intimidated by that alone into being "good citizens"that they maybe caused the greatest horror of mankind's history by not questioning that alot more.
Put it like this...if this is the case,then would you personally,have no objections to the Gardai,customs the revenue,social services,and your local parish priest pitching up at your door at 4am,going thru your entire private papers,medical records,tax returns,your bottom sock drawer,and night table stand.Questioning your wife and kids without you present or a solicitor,and leaving then without a reason why they did this,or what they were looking for???
If you answer NO![as any sane person would]my response is But you have nothing to hide...So what have you to fear???
Dont be in such a fierce rush to hand away any little freedoms you and us all have.It is a horrible job to get them back,and usually involves generally unhealthy pastimes like wars and rebellions to retrive them.:(

Sermon over .... pass the Bats earlobes,they're lovley...:D:D

G17

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Gardai,customs the revenue,social services,and your local parish priest pitching up at your door at 4am

Ah, memories, that was quite a party..........:D:D:D:D