Airsoft in Garda Commissioners guidelines

BornToKill

The changes on airsoft draw nearer, as evidenced by the sport finding it's way into the guidelines on firearms licensing issued Friday by the Garda Commissioner.

'

CHAPTER 5: REGISTERED FIREARMS DEALERS AND ‘AIRSOFT’ – REALISTIC IMITATION FIREARMS

Registered Firearms Dealers

Section 38 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 has amended section 9 of the principal Act. The registration of a person in the register of firearms dealers shall now continue in force for three years unless it is revoked. The register is maintained by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Section 39 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006 amends section 10 of the principal Act and introduces the category of a restricted firearms dealer authorised by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The registration of a person under this section also continues in force for a period of three years unless it is revoked.

Section 36 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 substitutes a new section for section 17 of the 1925 Firearms Act. However, this section has not yet been commenced and section 17 still applies.

Airsoft – Realistic Imitation Firearms

Section 40 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 inserts nine new sections after section 9 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 and deals with the regulation of realistic imitation firearms not over one joule in muzzle energy and therefore do not come under the definition of a firearm in section 1(1) of the Firearms Act 1925 as amended by section 26 of the Criminal Justice Act 2006.

Note: Only sections 9A and 9B were commenced on 1st August 2009. The remainder of these sections will be commenced at a later date.

Section 9B now also provides for a superintendent of any district to authorise in writing the possession, use or carriage of these realistic imitation firearms at a specified location in that district for a period not exceeding one year (see Annex ‘D’re authorisations).

Section 9C will provide for the Minister for Justice Equality and Law reform to establish and keep a register of dealers in these realistic imitation firearms. The registration of a person in this register shall continue in force for 3 years unless removed or revoked. The Minister may, after consultation with the Garda Commissioner, specify minimum standards to be complied with by reference to security of premises, construction, window display, merchandise, location etc.

Section 9D will make it an offence for a person to import, manufacture, sell, test or repair by way of trade or business any realistic imitation firearm unless registered in the register as kept by the Minister above.'

The original document is on the garda website.

fayer

No supprises in this, good to see information being despenced. The guidelines they speak of are being assembled in consultation with the IAA and are contained in the document on irishairsoft.ie

Steve

Stercus Accidit

So if you do repairs for money, which I have done a little of lately, you can no longer do so without getting registered?

BornToKill

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

So if you do repairs for money, which I have done a little of lately, you can no longer do so without getting registered?

Correctimundo.

CrazyRabbit

"Section 9B of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 as inserted by section 40 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2009 now provides for a superintendent to authorise in writing the possession, use and carriage of realistic imitation firearms – known as ‘Airsoft’- at a specific location for a period not exceeding 1 year. The superintendent must be satisfied that this authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace and can impose any conditions – to be specified in the authorisation – considered necessary to prevent a danger to the public."

If I understand correctly, the superintendent can come up with any 'conditions' on the skirmish site that they deem necessary to protect the public or ensure no breach of the peace. This is wide open to abuse by superintendents with a dislike of airsoft. I see no mention of an appeals process either.

"carriage of realistic imitation firearms " would seem to imply that you need authorisation to transport RIF's to the site or the district in which the site is located.

deepimpact

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

"carriage of realistic imitation firearms " would seem to imply that you need authorisation to transport RIF's to the site or the district in which the site is located.

It's "at a specific location" though, so airsoft is only allowed on authorised sites.

Carriage in a car or bus would therefore be covered if the individual was going to or coming from an authorised site where airsoft is authorised.

BornToKill

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

This is wide open to abuse by superintendents with a dislike of airsoft.

Are there many of those?

Stercus Accidit

There was talk that the IAA was pressing for some set guidelines to prevent that sort of abuse.

Also, the transport to and from a site, what if I transport to a friends house to sell him an AEG, or am moving house, or travelling to a game abroad where the Irish approval of a site is irrelevant?
Is there provision for that?

Mervenut

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

"Section 9B of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 as inserted by section 40 of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2009 now provides for a superintendent to authorise in writing the possession, use and carriage of realistic imitation firearms – known as ‘Airsoft’- at a specific location for a period not exceeding 1 year. The superintendent must be satisfied that this authorisation will not endanger the public safety or the peace and can impose any conditions – to be specified in the authorisation – considered necessary to prevent a danger to the public."

I'm no lawyer but this section mentions "..carriage at a specific location.." so carriage to and from this location or anywhere else is not covered by this section, but may be elswhere in the bill. I'm sure IAA can advise further.

Hivemind187

Folks try to remember the intention behind these laws is not to penalise the law-abiding airsofter who isnt harming anyone. Its to do two simple things.

- Provide the Gardai with the apropriate powers to prosecute the numpties we've all been bellyaching about for the last three years.
- Provide a system under which illegal skirmishing and irresponsible trade can be controlled by the authorities with the powers to prosecute those who break the rules.

Its not intended to infringe on the freedoms of individual airsofters (regardless of the conspiracy theories and believe me I have my own).

Consider the issue of super-nintendos. The government has been dragged into court over and over by real-steel shooters over ignorant anti-gun types. The last thing the government wants is for something like this to go to court because they have to be aware that such a case is unwinable from their perspective.

The issue of personal carriage is the same as it is for things like swords, bows, firearms etc. Do it properly and responsibly like we have for the last 3 years and its all good.

The issue of reapirs though is a little peculiar and I would trust that since this was raised with the IAA about 3 months ago they have investigated it and requested clarification from the authorities on the issue.

fleecymanager

i hope common scence will prevale here , if you go around with full camo and a aeg sticking out of your bag then you will be stoped and will get into trouble,if however players are doing things by the book then it will not be a problem(AND THEREFORE WONT BECOME A PROBLEM) i know plenty of garda and i have found them all to be sound but if people go around drawing attention to airsoft for the wrong reason then there will be greef

BornToKill

Hivemind187 wrote: »

The government has been dragged into court over and over by real-steel shooters

I don't think it has. What cases are you thinking about?

Stercus Accidit

BornToKill wrote: »

I don't think it has. What cases are you thinking about?

It was common practice for a while, but it was superintendants not government officials involved in the cases, but that's a separate issue.

Tomebagel

Does this mean you cant sell on second hand guns?

CrazyRabbit

I'm aware that the new laws actually protect us and are not there to punish law abiding airsofters. However, I don't want to be in a situation whereby I'm traveling to a skirmish site with a bag load of AEG's and I get stopped by some guard with a dislike of airsoft, and he/she decides to interpret the "carriage of realistic imitation firearms – known as ‘Airsoft’- at a specific location" as "You don't currently have permission from the Superintendent to travel with guns on this road(location)"

I like laws to be as black and white as possible and not grey. I doubt there will be any issues with this as it is currently written, but I'm just highlighting the possibility that there could be and it could have serious repercussions for innocent airsofters.

Hivemind187

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

I'm aware that the new laws actually protect us and are not there to punish law abiding airsofters. However, I don't want to be in a situation whereby I'm traveling to a skirmish site with a bag load of AEG's and I get stopped by some guard with a dislike of airsoft, and he/she decides to interpret the "carriage of realistic imitation firearms – known as ‘Airsoft’- at a specific location" as "You don't currently have permission from the Superintendent to travel with guns on this road(location)"

I like laws to be as black and white as possible and not grey. I doubt there will be any issues with this as it is currently written, but I'm just highlighting the possibility that there could be and it could have serious repercussions for innocent airsofters.

The point is that a cop doesnt decide the law, he/she/it can only interpret and if they interpret incorrectly the case is chucked out. If they show a propensity to continue misinterpreting the law they get reprimanded.

We've all heard the horror stories but hte point is the cops can't do anything to you without just cause.

Stephen can fill in better on this one.

Hivemind187

BornToKill wrote: »

I don't think it has. What cases are you thinking about?

... its the main reason that pistol licenses were issued in the state. You spend enough time on the shooting forum, I'm sure you can look it up.

An Gardai Siochana are functionaries of the state therefore an arm of the government.

BornToKill

Hivemind187 wrote: »

... its the main reason that pistol licenses were issued in the state. You spend enough time on the shooting forum, I'm sure you can look it up.

An Gardai Siochana are functionaries of the state therefore an arm of the government.

I'm aware of the Brophy case which I assume is the one you are referencing above but that is hardly being 'dragged into court over and over'. I even think that was a judical review taken against a Superintendent. The licensing decisions of some other Garda Superintendents have been challenged in court too with mixed results - some wins and some losses. Garda Superintendents are not the government. Even when you amend your earlier statement to claim that they are 'an arm of the government' this is still incorrect. Section 28 of the constitution states:

'The Government shall consist of not less than seven and not more than fifteen members who shall be appointed by the President in accordance with the provisions of this Constitution.'

I asked the question because I thought you were aware of cases of which I was not aware and I love to learn. If you merely used the term incorrectly then that's clarified now. If, however, you can cite cases then please do.

Inari

I'm a little confused about what this means...

Firstly, I'm aware that having legislation on Airsoft is a good thing. If they acknowledge it, means it's future is protected. But I'm not entirely sure as to what this means. Do we (anyone who currently owns a Realistic Imitation Firearm) now have to get written permission? Or is the permission purely for Airsoft Venues. Is this merely the beginnings of the English system (requiring membership of a registered venue to have possession of an RIF)?

How does this affect the casual airsofter? Someone who wants an RIF, uses them occasionally at a registered venue, but mostly in the confines of their own home. Do they still need permission to own an RIF, or do they have to be a registered member of a Venue (or of the IAA)?

I'm just wondering what this actually changes, and what I personally have to do at the moment. Do I have to go to my local Garda Station and get permission to own an Airsoft Device?

Thanks in advance
~Inari,

fleecymanager

as far as i can see (and im far from an expert) the laws regarding fire arms has tightened up not airsoft,as i said before if people start to test the law then were in trouble, im all for peoples rights e.t.c. but questioning the law for the sake of it will only draw attention to something
that doesnt need it,i have every confidence that the IAA have put a very good case for airsoft ot the garda and DOJ,and if you or i are stoped by the gaurds and found to have (replica firearm) airsoft gun and the garda in his opinion (which is in law already) decides that your up to no good with it then he is within his rights to query you , but if he has no reason to give you greef then in my experience he wont(happy days) AS MY OLD POP ONCE SAID (THERE AINT SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE,AND IF YOU DONT WANT SMOKE ,DONT START A FIRE) .......JUST MY 46 CENT WORTH

Mervenut

Inari wrote: »

I'm a little confused about what this means...

Firstly, I'm aware that having legislation on Airsoft is a good thing. If they acknowledge it, means it's future is protected. But I'm not entirely sure as to what this means. Do we (anyone who currently owns a Realistic Imitation Firearm) now have to get written permission? Or is the permission purely for Airsoft Venues. Is this merely the beginnings of the English system (requiring membership of a registered venue to have possession of an RIF)?

How does this affect the casual airsofter? Someone who wants an RIF, uses them occasionally at a registered venue, but mostly in the confines of their own home. Do they still need permission to own an RIF, or do they have to be a registered member of a Venue (or of the IAA)?

I'm just wondering what this actually changes, and what I personally have to do at the moment. Do I have to go to my local Garda Station and get permission to own an Airsoft Device?

Thanks in advance
~Inari,

The permission referred to here applies ONLY TO VENUES and has NO bearing on individuals! Please don't (mis)read a small part of the bill and go off speculating about stuff that isn't mentioned here, it just creates confusion.
See the IAA's website here http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=979 for their most recent update on the issue.

gerrowadat

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

If I understand correctly, the superintendent can come up with any 'conditions' on the skirmish site that they deem necessary to protect the public or ensure no breach of the peace. This is wide open to abuse by superintendents with a dislike of airsoft. I see no mention of an appeals process either.

"carriage of realistic imitation firearms " would seem to imply that you need authorisation to transport RIF's to the site or the district in which the site is located.

On superintendent permission -- we've been assured that the only grounds that permission can be refused on is in the name of public safety, and we've been asked by the relevant department within the Gardaí to help them draw up their guidelines. You should see them on our website, thanks to Mervenut for pointing them out.

As for apeals process, this will be subject to the same appeals process as RS, there's a unit in the Gardaí specifically for making calls on this sort of thing. I've spoken to the head of the unit several times, and whatever about the letter of the law, the intention is for there to be good reason to refuse the venue, and "I don't like Airsoft" isn't gong to be a good reason.

gerrowadat

Tomebagel wrote: »

Does this mean you cant sell on second hand guns?

The intention is not to restrict those, we had that clarified with the Department. The relevant wording from the bill is "by way of trade or business".

Dave
IAA Vice-Chair

gerrowadat

Inari wrote: »

I'm a little confused about what this means...

Firstly, I'm aware that having legislation on Airsoft is a good thing. If they acknowledge it, means it's future is protected. But I'm not entirely sure as to what this means. Do we (anyone who currently owns a Realistic Imitation Firearm) now have to get written permission? Or is the permission purely for Airsoft Venues. Is this merely the beginnings of the English system (requiring membership of a registered venue to have possession of an RIF)?

How does this affect the casual airsofter? Someone who wants an RIF, uses them occasionally at a registered venue, but mostly in the confines of their own home. Do they still need permission to own an RIF, or do they have to be a registered member of a Venue (or of the IAA)?

I'm just wondering what this actually changes, and what I personally have to do at the moment. Do I have to go to my local Garda Station and get permission to own an Airsoft Device?

Thanks in advance
~Inari,

Hi Inari,

I recommand you read our document "Airsoft, the MPB and you" on our website, it explains the new laws in plain english -- http://irishairsoft.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/airsoft_the_mpb_and_you.pdf

Dave
IAA Vice-Chair

Mervenut

gerrowadat wrote: »

Hi Inari,

I recommand you read our document "Airsoft, the MPB and you" on our website, it explains the new laws in plain english -- http://irishairsoft.ie/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/airsoft_the_mpb_and_you.pdf

Dave
IAA Vice-Chair

Thanks Dave, I was trying to find this on your site to link to it above but couldn't, it doesn't seem to be in the "downloads" section?

Inari

Thanks for the links! I wasn't certain...it was the word possession that threw me, as everything else made sense in terms of venue. Cheers guys!

gerrowadat

Mervenut wrote: »

Thanks Dave, I was trying to find this on your site to link to it above but couldn't, it doesn't seem to be in the "downloads" section?

It's in the official docs section under releases. Yeah, the doanloads section is a bit misleading, been thinking of getting rid of it for a while.

Gray

BornToKill wrote: »

Section 9D will make it an offence for a person to import, manufacture, sell, test or repair by way of trade or business any realistic imitation firearm unless registered in the register as kept by the Minister above.'

Is personal import of RIF's covered in another section of the act as this seems to imply only dealers need to be registered & personal imports can continue.

gerrowadat

Gray wrote: »

Is personal import of RIF's covered in another section of the act as this seems to imply only dealers need to be registered & personal imports can continue.

You're reading the synopsis there, the act itself makes it more explicit, and this is very much the intention. Even if it isn't covered, it'll be covered by an EU directive soon enough anyway.

Hivemind187

gerrowadat wrote: »

You're reading the synopsis there, the act itself makes it more explicit, and this is very much the intention. Even if it isn't covered, it'll be covered by an EU directive soon enough anyway.

Back off Brusells!

Leftyflip

Say for example someone asked you to get some parts for their AEG and fit them, under the new laws, could you even charge them for the parts?

fayer

Leftyflip wrote: »

Say for example someone asked you to get some parts for their AEG and fit them, under the new laws, could you even charge them for the parts?

"By way of trade or business" only relates to companies or doing such work for money.

Leftyflip

fayer wrote: »

"By way of trade or business" only relates to companies or doing such work for money.

So it would be ok then?

fayer

Leftyflip wrote: »

So it would be ok then?

Once your not getting anything out of it according to our advice from the department

Leftyflip

fayer wrote: »

Once your not getting anything out of it according to our advice from the department

Thanks Stephen!
Gerard.

fayer

Theirs normally one of the committee in the chat room if you or anyone has questions, yes I know we have no lives :rolleyes: