Question about geography and english teaching :confused:

da_shivsta

Sorry, there must be loads of young ones like me asking these questions but I've looked on the first few pages and there isn't much there.... Ok so the situation is that I'm just going in to my 2nd Year of a B.A. with Women's Studies in NUIG. I always wanted to do teaching but of course I didn't get the points for a normal Arts degree. So with Women's Studies, I did Geography, Archaeology and English. I have to keep on three subjects including Women's Studies. I want to teach English so that will obviously be a subject that I keep on, but if I drop Geography can I teach that up to Junior Cert level?
I have to make my decision this week. Any help would be much appreciated!

pathway33

www.teachingcouncil.ie and click on 'list of recognised qualifications' to see if your degree is there. If not you have to apply for your degree to be recognised

pathway33

If your degree is not on the list then on www.teachingcouncil.ie click on 'subject specific criteria' and for english you will see

Applicants must provide officially certified evidence of satisfactory achievement in primary degree studies (or equivalent) as outlined hereunder:

q The study of English as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period

q Details of the degree course content to show that knowledge and understanding required to teach English to the highest level in post-primary education has been acquired

q The study of a substantial body of relevant literature as an integral part of the degree course including comprehensive study through the medium of English of any three of the following:
– Drama or Theatre Studies
– Poetry
– Fiction
– Media Studies or Communications or Film Studies


q The list of texts and authors studied by the applicant throughout the degree course must be provided in support of the above

q Residential experience of at least three months in a country in which English is the vernacular

q Explicit details of standards achieved in degree studies in English must be presented with at least an overall Pass result in the examinations in English


Additional information (i) where greater clarity is requested or (ii) which would otherwise more fully support the application must be provided as required.

pathway33

It used to be the case that if you did a subject in college for first year only then you could teach it up to junior cert but that has been abolished now. In order for you to teach any year in a secondary school you have to be qualified to teach that subject up to honours leaving cert standard. That means for geography you cannot drop it yet.

So for geography

Applicants must provide officially certified evidence of satisfactory achievement in primary degree studies (or equivalent) as outlined hereunder:

q The study of Geography as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period

q Details of the degree course content to show that the knowledge and understanding required to teach Geography to the highest level in post-primary education has been acquired

q The degree course must include study of substantial elements in both Human and Physical Geography

q Explicit details of standards achieved in degree studies in Geography with at least an overall Pass result in the examinations in Geography


Additional information (i) where greater clarity is requested or (ii) which would otherwise more fully support the application must be provided as required.

Note that you have to focus on both human and physical geog in you module choices in second year

pathway33

sorry some bits came out in bold above. Don't know why that happened. Doesn't mean those bits are any more important than the rest

da_shivsta

Thanks for all your replies! I had looked at that teaching council website and it only confused me more. The main thing was the fact that you have to have spent 30% of the course doing Geography so would that not be one year out of three? I'm not totally sure what they mean by that! Well, either way, I cannot keep Geography on any longer. I almost failed last year, so do you think it would be completely inadvisable to continue on with only one teaching subject? Would employability be an issue then? I have other career options considering I'm also doing Women's Studies and Archaeology but teaching is what I am passionate about, I think.....

rainbowtrout

da_shivsta wrote: »

Thanks for all your replies! I had looked at that teaching council website and it only confused me more. The main thing was the fact that you have to have spent 30% of the course doing Geography so would that not be one year out of three? I'm not totally sure what they mean by that! Well, either way, I cannot keep Geography on any longer. I almost failed last year, so do you think it would be completely inadvisable to continue on with only one teaching subject? Would employability be an issue then? I have other career options considering I'm also doing Women's Studies and Archaeology but teaching is what I am passionate about, I think.....

They mean 30% of your degree, as in 30% of all the credits/modules you take. Taking Geography in first year doesn't mean it's 30% of your degree, if you've taken four subjects as you've listed above for your first year, it's really only a quarter of your first year. 30% is roughly in terms of modules and you must have taken the subject to final year, so you would have to do the subject in every year of your degree. Otherwise anyone would be able to take an elective in the first year of a degree, drop it and then claim they could teach it.

If you're failing Geography, there probably isn't any point keeping it on. You will find it harder to find a teaching job with just one teaching subject. Then again by the end of your degree you may not want to teach anymore.

Miss Lockhart

It has to be 30% AND studied over the course of 3 years. Also, it's not clearly spelled out there, but they do seem to insist that that includes final year.

In my opinion this system is totally arbitrary and unfair. Surely 60 credits is 60 credits.... For example, I had to prove I had done 120 credits of a subject as my degree is 360 credits. They wont register me for another subject that I have 80 credits in spread over 3 years because 80 is not one third of my degree and it was the middle 3 years of my degree, not the final one. This is ridiculous! Why are my 80 credits not as good as someone elses 60? Why do I have to have twice the minimum of everyone else??

Unfortunatley OP, the TC are strictly following along guidelines as if they are rules and they are totally inflexible when trying to apply them to non traditional courses.

Good luck with them anyway!

pathway33

da_shivsta wrote: »

do you think it would be completely inadvisable to continue on with only one teaching subject? Would employability be an issue then?

You will still be able to qualify as a teacher by just having one teaching subject i.e english to degree level. You may have to do the PGCE in England for 9 months and then come back here because you need 2 subjects in the PGDE methodology here although some people with just one subject teach CSPE just to have a second subject but they would not be qualified to teach it after the PDGE...confused? ....

GTTR is the website for applications to the english PGCE. Check it out because some of the PGCE's may require your degree to have at least 50% english content to degree level.

If you needed a second subject then after you qualify to teach english you could do something like the st. patricks college maynooth higher diploma in theology which is 2 evenings a week for 8 months and the teaching council recognise this so you could teach religion then as a second subject.

So if you are passionate about teaching there's means and ways to get there.

Best of luck

pathway33

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

my degree is 360 credits. [...] Why are my 80 credits not as good as someone elses 60? Why do I have to have twice the minimum of everyone else??

Because you're 360 credits (an OU degree?) is equivalent to 180 irish credits on a 3 year degree.

Your 80 credits are equal to 40 irish credits.

Miss Lockhart

No, my degree is an irish degree from an nui and is the same credits as everyone else. Besides, the credits are all measured on the European Credit Transfer System (ECTS) anyway so it wouldn't make a difference. It's just that 30% of some degrees is a lot more than 30% of other. Surely it should be on number of credits (fair enough to be spread over several years or whatever).

pathway33

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

No, my degree is an irish degree from an nui and is the same credits as everyone else. Besides, the credits are all measured on the European Credit Transfer System (ECTS) anyway so it wouldn't make a difference. It's just that 30% of some degrees is a lot more than 30% of other. Surely it should be on number of credits (fair enough to be spread over several years or whatever).

oh so you have a 6 year degree? Because isn't 60 credits the most you can do in an academic year under ECTS?

Miss Lockhart

pathway33 wrote: »

oh so you have a 6 year degree? Because isn't 60 credits the most you can do in an academic year under ECTS?

I am not certain, but I do not think there is an actual rule saying you can only get 60 credits per year. 60 credits equates to 1500-1800 hours of study and it just so happens that this generally is what a university year is (this includes personal study time expected to succeed in the course).

For example, I'm fairly sure UCD med has 65 credits one year and only 55 in another.

Anyway, my degree is not 6 years. ECTS credits are awarded for work placement also, so courses that involve a significant amount of this (for example, 24 weeks outside of term time) end up with more credits.

At the end of the day I think that if I have 60 credits of (let's say) Chemistry that covers the topic requirements listed and includes modules from at least 3 university years, then that should be as acceptable as someone with 60 credits of Chemistry from 3 years of a general Science degree.

rainbowtrout

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

It has to be 30% AND studied over the course of 3 years. Also, it's not clearly spelled out there, but they do seem to insist that that includes final year.

In my opinion this system is totally arbitrary and unfair. Surely 60 credits is 60 credits.... For example, I had to prove I had done 120 credits of a subject as my degree is 360 credits. They wont register me for another subject that I have 80 credits in spread over 3 years because 80 is not one third of my degree and it was the middle 3 years of my degree, not the final one. This is ridiculous! Why are my 80 credits not as good as someone elses 60? Why do I have to have twice the minimum of everyone else??

Unfortunatley OP, the TC are strictly following along guidelines as if they are rules and they are totally inflexible when trying to apply them to non traditional courses.

Good luck with them anyway!

I would have thought this bit was straightforward enough. 120/360 = one third. 80/360 does not. Where's the problem. If each of those figures represents a subject taken in the same degree, the one with 80 credits is obviously less than a third of the course. If different colleges work on different numbers of credits, the number of credits needed is going to be different for every course, but will still come out at a third.

pathway33 wrote: »

Because you're 360 credits (an OU degree?) is equivalent to 180 irish credits on a 3 year degree.

Your 80 credits are equal to 40 irish credits.

This is what I thought, I'm doing a degree with OU at the moment, and it's 360 credits for an honours degree, so technically (for unapproved courses) at least 120 credits would have to be of the relevant subject and taken at the three different levels offered by OU. I'm actually waiting for a reply back from the Teaching Council regarding the modules I've completed so far on this one.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

No, my degree is an irish degree from an nui and is the same credits as everyone else. Besides, the credits are all measured on the European Credit Transfer System (ECTS) anyway so it wouldn't make a difference. It's just that 30% of some degrees is a lot more than 30% of other. Surely it should be on number of credits (fair enough to be spread over several years or whatever).

How can 30% of one degree be 'more' than 30% of another degree. That's like saying 99/100 and 198/200 are not the same when they are both 99%. If your degree is 360 credits, 120 must be relevant, if your degree is 180 credits, it doesn't mean you've studied less it just means the college has a different credit system in place and 60/180 is what is needed. Do remember some colleges are semesterised and some work off three terms (although that may have changed since I attended), so will have a credit system to suit.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

At the end of the day I think that if I have 60 credits of (let's say) Chemistry that covers the topic requirements listed and includes modules from at least 3 university years, then that should be as acceptable as someone with 60 credits of Chemistry from 3 years of a general Science degree.

Only if your degree is 180 credits in total. Are you doing medicine, because you reference it a lot and I can't think of any other 6 year degree that would include Chemistry, and have a 'middle three years'


I suppose just to finish off, I just had a look at Medicine in UCD and UCC. They don't have a number of the relevant modules needed for Chemistry teaching

Miss Lockhart

rainbowtrout wrote: »

How can 30% of one degree be 'more' than 30% of another degree. That's like saying 99/100 and 198/200 are not the same when they are both 99%. If your degree is 360 credits, 120 must be relevant, if your degree is 180 credits, it doesn't mean you've studied less it just means the college has a different credit system in place and 60/180 is what is needed. Do remember some colleges are semesterised and some work off three terms (although that may have changed since I attended), so will have a credit system to suit.

Okay, I'm not really explaining myself well here - what I mean is 30% of a 3 year standard degree is 1 year, 30% of a 4 year standard degree is more than 1 year, and so on. Like, terrible analogy here, but 30% of a 500g chocolate bar is more than 30% of a 250g chocolate bar. Obviously you can't compare degrees and chocolate bars! But basically, I don't see why the 30% is important at all - surely exactly what was covered and in what depth is what is important? I would have thought so anyway.


[font=&quot]I’m talking about a situation where someone does a degree that is longer than the usual 3 or 4 years. [/font]

[font=&quot]For example:[/font]
[font=&quot]During that degree they take, for example, Chemistry lectures with people in general science in the same university, for three years – including final year general science Chemistry lectures. As well as this, they take modules and lectures separately from their own specific degree area. However, in their final year they specialise in their specific degree area and no longer take Chemistry lectures from general science.[/font]

[font=&quot]When the person from general science graduates they may have 180 credits in total, including 60 credits in Chemistry and have covered the topic requirements for the TC. They can register to teach Chemistry.[/font]

[font=&quot]When the other person graduates they have 360 credits as they have done more years in uni plus the equivalent of one academic year of work placement. They have completed the same Chemistry modules and lectures and topics as the person in general science and have also done some other chemistry more relative to their own subject area in their other years of the course. They have 80 credits of chemistry completed and have covered the topic requirements for the TC. [/font]

[font=&quot]This is where my confusion lies. They have the same chemistry modules and lectures done. However, these same credits and modules and lectures add up to one third of one degree, but less than one third of another degree. One person can register to teach Chemistry and one cannot.[/font]

[font=&quot]I’m just confused as to how this can be the case?[/font]

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Only if your degree is 180 credits in total. Are you doing medicine, because you reference it a lot and I can't think of any other 6 year degree that would include Chemistry, and have a 'middle three years'


I suppose just to finish off, I just had a look at Medicine in UCD and UCC. They don't have a number of the relevant modules needed for Chemistry teaching

I graduated a few years ago and no, I did not do medicine. I'm not sure why you think I "reference it a lot" as I mentioned it only once to show that some courses can have more or less than 60 ECTS credits per academic year.

I used Chemistry as an example only - it is not actually Chemistry I have credits in. However, the situation is, basically, as I described above.