Going from Tri Season to DCM - Advice?

MCOS

Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind some advice here. As a Marathon is not my main focus this year I am not following any kind of Marathon program for the DM.

Mileage roughly 20-25 per week up to now. Next week is a half ironman so I'll be running 13.1 off the bike. So low running mileage and plenty of cycling up to now.

My problem lies in selecting the optimum pace and getting the most out of 4 weeks Marathon prep.

So 4 long runs... how can I get the best out of them? Also, what would be the best indication that I could hold a target split for 26.2?

Thanks

Poncherello

MCOS wrote: »

Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind some advice here. As a Marathon is not my main focus this year I am not following any kind of Marathon program for the DM.

Mileage roughly 20-25 per week up to now. Next week is a half ironman so I'll be running 13.1 off the bike. So low running mileage and plenty of cycling up to now.

My problem lies in selecting the optimum pace and getting the most out of 4 weeks Marathon prep.

So 4 long runs... how can I get the best out of them? Also, what would be the best indication that I could hold a target split for 26.2?

Thanks

Hey Amadeus I'm in same boat as MCOS above, would love to hear your thoughts ..

--amadeus--

Copied from the "Shortest LSR" thread...

I think the likes of Hm and Tunney would be better placed to answer this and a lot of the answer may depend on the length of your current LSRs. Building them logically from where you are to a peak of 18 / 20 would make the most sense. And since you are both coming from a strong endurance and fitness base then a mid length PMP run (8 / 10 / 12 / 14 miles maybe, if you have 4 full weeks left?) midweek would also help. I wouldn't bother overly with LT or intervals - key to this for you two is now endurance so I'd pad teh rest of teh week with easy & recovery runs.

Anyone else any thoughts?

Izoard

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Anyone else any thoughts?

I'm in the same boat.
Last tri (oly) this weekend, then I plan the following LSRs (1 per week):

2hr 15
2hr 30
2hr 45
3hr 00
2 hr 45
2 hr 00

Plus a couple of 10km recoveries in between.

This is generally enough to bring me home in 3:30-3:50....

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Copied from the "Shortest LSR" thread...

I think the likes of Hm and Tunney would be better placed to answer this and a lot of the answer may depend on the length of your current LSRs. Building them logically from where you are to a peak of 18 / 20 would make the most sense. And since you are both coming from a strong endurance and fitness base then a mid length PMP run (8 / 10 / 12 / 14 miles maybe, if you have 4 full weeks left?) midweek would also help. I wouldn't bother overly with LT or intervals - key to this for you two is now endurance so I'd pad teh rest of teh week with easy & recovery runs.

Anyone else any thoughts?

Won't be popular for this but running a marathon off the back of a tri season will only result in two things: a poor marathon time relative to potential and expectations and a poor start to the base training phase of next season.
My two cents. Hunny WILL disagree with this though.

RedB

Also interested in this topic as I'm new to Tri and am just about lined up for a 'get me round' effort for Kenmare in my maiden season. I haven't been doing a lot of running recently but a buddy and I pushed it up to 13.5m last night in 2:07 and he's hoping to push it on further for the DCM. While I had thoughts of DCM earlier in the year and piggybacking off the Tri training I felt recently that I hadn't done the mileage. Now though I'm considering it again also as a 'get me round' excercise. (Next season I'm going to be soooo much better!:D). While the buddy has visions of sub-4 I'd be happy to make it round in one piece. The legs were burning for the last few miles last night and were very stiff afterwards so its hard to imagine getting to 26.2 but Izoard's previous post about ramping up and back the long run looks do-able even if there'll be walking involved on the big day. Am I mad or what?

Separately - MCOS I'm new to boards so have just discovered your log and all the other fine threads floating around this site. Great stuff from so many people. Inspiring reading - keep up the good work all.

hunnymonster

tunney wrote: »

Won't be popular for this but running a marathon off the back of a tri season will only result in two things: a poor marathon time relative to potential and expectations

yes, not for a competent, non-injury prone runner, we're talking minutes slower, not hours.

tunney wrote: »

and a poor start to the base training phase of next season.
My two cents.

again yes but not so much that you'll probably even notice come March. The big thing will be that you're putting off your post tri season rest for a couple of weeks and you'll have to be very careful about recovery after DCM. not a minute more or minute less than you needl

tunney wrote: »

Hunny WILL disagree with this though.

only kinda disagreeing.

None of this answers your question about what kind of pace to aim for. I don't actually know but one idea might be to look at last years TI results for the people finishing Oly's and 1/2IM's in the same time as you are this year and then go look up what times they did in DCM. There are always a good few people from the tri scene on the streets of Dublin on bank holiday Monday. Sorry I've not got a more scientific method for you.

MCOS

5 weekends so 5 LSRS before Race week. I'm thinking...

1. 16m progress pace avery 4m
2. 18m
3. 18m with 12 @PMP
4. 20m
5. 14m with 6 @PMP

Would I be better off just doing straight LSRS even paced and do PMP type runs midweek?

Abhainn

MCOS wrote: »

5 weekends so 5 LSRS before Race week. I'm thinking...

1. 16m progress pace avery 4m
2. 18m
3. 18m with 12 @PMP
4. 20m
5. 14m with 6 @PMP

Would I be better off just doing straight LSRS even paced and do PMP type runs midweek?

MCOS going by that schedule you'd probably end up doing more bad than good and you"ll end up been tired at the start line.
You won;t need 5 LSR's as the strong bike work in 2009 will stand to you.
You have no step back weeks in there.

I'd probably drop the PMP during the long runs and do those mid week but max those out at 10 miles.
Remember you'll be doing 13.1 miles this weekend which will probably be close to your PMP for DM anyway.

Maybe something like

1. 16m
2. 18m
3. 12m
4. 20m (Saturday)
5. 10m
6. Race

Good luck at the weekend

MCOS

Cheers Abhainn,

Kenmare is next week! So you reckon just one 20 and one 18 will do hmmm. Perhaps you are right. I'm not concerned about going the distance. The only concern is not being able to maintain the pace I go at. Hopefully I'll have lots of energy for a negative split on the day but the target pace is a good 40sec per mile faster than my time last year. Oh to blessed with your leg speed!

Ok PMP stuff midweek... got that!



I'll be gulping all kinds of electrolytes to stave off the cramps this year too!

--amadeus--

Good luck with Kenmare - not that you need it!

MCOS wrote: »

I'll be gulping all kinds of electrolytes to stave off the cramps this year too!

I read somewhere that over hydration could trigger cramps. I can't remember where I saw it and Google is giving rubbish but it could be something worth reading up on?

MCOS

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Good luck with Kenmare - not that you need it!



I read somewhere that over hydration could trigger cramps. I can't remember where I saw it and Google is giving rubbish but it could be something worth reading up on?

Thats interesting.. I know dehydration can lead to cramp but overhydration? To what extent.. I've read about hyperhydration before.. I think that gives you a apectrum if issues including death.

vegas elvis

Hi MCOS

I did the DCM after doing Kenmare last year in my first season of tri's so this might be of help (I only did Kenmare for the experience and to take the mystery out of it for this year).

Up to Kenmare I had been up to 15 miles in LSR's. I took a week off after the race followed by 3 long runs and a 3 week taper as follows:

1. LSR 18 miles hilly trail run - weekly mileage = 40miles
2. LSR 20.5 miles hilly trail run - weekly mileage = 39miles
3. LSR 22.5 miles on the road - weekly mileage = 39miles
4. LRS 11 miles
5. LSR 8 miles
6. Race

Was aiming for between 3:30 and 3:40 for the race based on how I felt on the LSR's- did 3:41 with equal splits so was happy with that. I'll be doing the same this year without the week off due to the way the races are falling, I'd recommend a 3 week taper - I reckon it did wonders for me over previous years where I only did two.

--amadeus--

MCOS wrote: »

Thats interesting.. I know dehydration can lead to cramp but overhydration? To what extent.. I've read about hyperhydration before.. I think that gives you a apectrum if issues including death.

May be a blind alley - it's still talking in terms of sodium dilution which is something you seem well on top of. This report is from a physio who reckons he drank too much water pre-race day leaving him sodium depleted before the start. Because of that the sports drinks on the day weren't enough to prevent imbalance.

If you google "hyponatremia cramp" there are a good few results

tunney

--amadeus-- wrote: »

May be a blind alley - it's still talking in terms of sodium dilution which is something you seem well on top of. This report is from a physio who reckons he drank too much water pre-race day leaving him sodium depleted before the start. Because of that the sports drinks on the day weren't enough to prevent imbalance.

If you google "hyponatremia cramp" there are a good few results

Overhydration versus drinking to much water.

MCOS had said he was drinking electorlyte drinkls (nuun. dioaltye etc)

MrCreosote

Hey MCOS,

Here's a couple of good articles on cramps:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/muscle-cramps-part-1-theories-and.html and http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/12/muscle-cramps-part-v.html

Probably not too much help on preventing them but a nice theory all the same. There's some stuff on the site about hydration as well.
A friend of mine did a similar Lost sheep- DCM last year. He felt the half ironman training stood to him especially with endurance. He only got in one 20 miler before the DCM too.

--amadeus--

tunney wrote: »

Overhydration versus drinking to much water.

MCOS had said he was drinking electorlyte drinkls (nuun. dioaltye etc)

Yeah I get that but what I was wondering is if it is possible to drink so much water in the days before the race that you start from a negative position, and that the electrolytes you drink on the day aren't enough to catch up. As in you might drink enough to replace lost electrolytes but not make up whatever deficit you carry into the race.

I genuinely have no idea and like I said it could be a blind alley but maybe worth a bit more reading.