Why are there no computer-related subjects on the Leaving Cert. syllabus?

STBR

In a world where computers are the future; and more and more tasks and becoming computerized, it's hard to believe that there is nothing related to computers on the LC course.

Plenty of people in my class would still find trouble in even trying to operate a computer, much less do any difficult tasks.

Why is Ireland lagging behind so badly?

Kersmash

It's ridiculous, isn't it? I did an ECDL course in 4th and 5th year. I kinda flew ahead of the class and did my own thing, while many were struggling with really really basic things in Word and on the Internet etc. It was really surprising. Infact during the exams I’d finish really early and the teacher would ask me to go around and make sure everyone was ok. I ended up doing several tests per exam because of the ineptitude of the others. And it wasn't even hard stuff! Incredibly basic.

K4t

Too many students and not enough computers.

Fince

about 20% of the new dcg course is for computer skills.

pjtb

It's a joke, isn't it, that there isn't any dedicated IT related Leaving Cert subject. And there doesn't seem to be any in the pipeline.

Whole School Evaluation, and individual subject inspection reports seem to be looking out for integration of IT with other subjects, e.g. using maps on internet for Geography, looking up sources for history, etc. But that's no substitute really. Design and Communication Graphics does place a large emphasis on the use of IT for designing, etc., however. That's a new subject, so they do finally seem to be moving in that direction. Subjects like Accounting don't incorporate computers, even though they play a major part in doing up accounts in the 21st century.

'Tis daft really:pac:

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

Jay P

In our school we had computers as a leaving cert subject, but it could only be counted in UL as far as I'm aware...

jhegarty

At least you can do relevant modern courses like latin.

I though it was shocking I couldn't do it 13 years ago. It's madness things haven't changed.

Fince

jhegarty wrote: »

At least you can do relevant modern courses like latin.

.

huh?

Fince

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

they did it pretty fast for DCG. yes there were problems to work through in the first year of it, but after a few years things will be spot on.

i don't particularly agree with the idea. what do ye propose people would be tested on?

STBR

Kersmash wrote: »

It's ridiculous, isn't it? I did an ECDL course in 4th and 5th year. I kinda flew ahead of the class and did my own thing, while many were struggling with really really basic things in Word and on the Internet etc. It was really surprising. Infact during the exams I’d finish really early and the teacher would ask me to go around and make sure everyone was ok. I ended up doing several tests per exam because of the ineptitude of the others. And it wasn't even hard stuff! Incredibly basic.

Yeah it's crazy how bad so many people are.

I mean I've taught myself computer programming, web development, web design, Graphic Design, etc. over the past few years; without any help from the school I spend almost 7 hours per day at! :rolleyes:

Whereas a friend of mine lives in America, and with the way they can choose their subjects he's doing mostly computer-related/based subjects - which is very relevant to businesses he wants to start. I can't see learning "Irish" being beneficial to any businesses I want to start.

Like he has a computer programming class, a graphic design class, etc.

Whereas I'm stuck here doing irrelevant subjects which will be of no help to my personal future in comparison to if I was able to study some programming languages in school.

Instead, they're just wasting my time.

K4t wrote: »

Too many students and not enough computers.

Not in my school, it's newly updated so we have 4 huge computer labs all with about 50 brand new PCs; and only a couple of hundred students in the school.

Fince wrote: »

about 20% of the new dcg course is for computer skills.

Ah yeah but like, 20%? Honestly?

Even if it was 100% of that subject they'd still have a bit to go.

pjtb wrote: »

It's a joke, isn't it, that there isn't any dedicated IT related Leaving Cert subject. And there doesn't seem to be any in the pipeline.

Whole School Evaluation, and individual subject inspection reports seem to be looking out for integration of IT with other subjects, e.g. using maps on internet for Geography, looking up sources for history, etc. But that's no substitute really. Design and Communication Graphics does place a large emphasis on the use of IT for designing, etc., however. That's a new subject, so they do finally seem to be moving in that direction. Subjects like Accounting don't incorporate computers, even though they play a major part in doing up accounts in the 21st century.

'Tis daft really:pac:

So true - I'd think twice before hiring an accountant for my business if they were doing it all with pen on paper.

eVeNtInE wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yeah, but it would be slightly less enraging if they were even considering developing a course or two for computers, but not a single mention of it? Scandalous.

jhegarty wrote: »

At least you can do relevant modern courses like latin.

I though it was shocking I couldn't do it 13 years ago. It's madness things haven't changed.

Well, I can see more people benefiting from computer courses than from Latin, but it's a true point.



It's funny the way everybody views older people as not being able to use a computer, when in reality, Ireland is just creating more and more generations of people exactly the same.

Like the tonnes of people in my school who can't use a computer; they'll leave and go to college and take a non-computer-related course [because they don't know anything about computers in the first place because of the secondary school situation], then they'll go out and get a job and never even think of learning about computers - all the time computer technology becoming more and more advanced, thus the scarier it keeps getting to them.

sharky86

I guess its the same reason why you are taught to write with a crayon then pensil then pen and so on before you learn to type which a lot of college courses offer. School is about learning the fundemetals not about getting easy marks which face it most teenagers these days can be great on computers would get if there was a computer sysilbus for leaving cert

sharky86

speling of course was never my strong point thank god for "spell check"

STBR

Fince wrote: »

they did it pretty fast for DCG. yes there were problems to work through in the first year of it, but after a few years things will be spot on.

i don't particularly agree with the idea. what do ye propose people would be tested on?

I'd propose a variety of different subjects to choose from.

Computer courses should really be making up a pretty large percentage of overall available subjects.

• Basic computer applications. E.g. using MS Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Access, etc.
• Graphic Design. Using Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. [I can guarantee loads of people would love this if it was available].
• Some sort of programming and web development/design course(s) for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing.
• A Business course more orientated towards owning a software or a web business. I.e. A tech business.

Like everyone in the tech community is saying all about how Ireland is barely churning out any web businesses like Twitter, YouTube, or any social networking sites - How can they when nobody knows the first thing about it?

STBR

sharky86 wrote: »

I guess its the same reason why you are taught to write with a crayon then pensil then pen and so on before you learn to type which a lot of college courses offer. School is about learning the fundemetals not about getting easy marks which face it most teenagers these days can be great on computers would get if there was a computer sysilbus for leaving cert

Personally, I wouldn't say "most teenagers" are great on computers.

And also, why should we be penalized for possessing a skill like being great on computers?

I'm sure there are people who are "great" at Art for example, and they get to have their "easy marks".

The same with people from other countries who are fluent in their language E.g. French; and then they get to grab the easy A1 in higher level because they're fluent in it.

I see no difference?

Fince

SirDarren wrote: »

I'd propose a variety of different subjects to choose from.

Computer courses should really be making up a pretty large percentage of overall available subjects.

• Basic computer applications. E.g. using MS Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Access, etc.
• Graphic Design. Using Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. [I can guarantee loads of people would love this if it was available].
• Some sort of programming and web development/design course(s) for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing.
• A Business course more orientated towards owning a software or a web business. I.e. A tech business.

Like everyone in the tech community is saying all about how Ireland is barely churning out any web businesses like Twitter, YouTube, or any social networking sites - How can they when nobody knows the first thing about it?

well basic computer applications are covered in ecdl courses.

you can't get too specilist like. i realise from your above post that your extremely interested in computers etc. but that has to be pursued in college. i don't think its very realistic to expect the type of courses you outlined to become leaving cert subjects

rainbowtrout

Well the ag science syllabus hasn't changed since 1969 so it could be a while before they get around to putting together an IT course for Leaving Cert....

sharky86

SirDarren wrote: »

• Basic computer applications. E.g. using MS Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Access, etc.
• Graphic Design. Using Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. [I can guarantee loads of people would love this if it was available].
• Some sort of programming and web development/design course(s) for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing.
• A Business course more orientated towards owning a software or a web business. I.e. A tech business.

All of these courses a way too in depth to be prop thought at leaving cert level and to be used to any sort of productive level in business I would suppect that you would need more than 18 - 20 months worth of 40 min class's. hence their are kept to 3rd level where if you do have a natural knack with computers you can focus on them and not have to worry about keeping good grades in in the basics of geography, French etc. this coupled with the extream cost of setting up any of them courses and the compartively low percentage of students that would actually enjoy and make use of the subject and not try to access bebo,facebook and various x rated web sites by using proxies of course

STBR

Fince wrote: »

well basic computer applications are covered in ecdl courses.

you can't get too specilist like. i realise from your above post that your extremely interested in computers etc. but that has to be pursued in college. i don't think its very realistic to expect the type of courses you outlined to become leaving cert subjects

Yes I know they're in ECDLs but those who are proficient in them aren't able to benefit by getting Points in the L.C. at all.

As well as that, why do we do any subjects since we could always just cover them in a course?

I'm pretty sure computers are a lot more relevant to the modern world that Irish.

So why can't computers replace Irish and then if anyone wants to, they can do Irish in a "course" themselves?


As well as that, I think it's very realistic.

It's done in high schools in America and look at how much more advanced/up to date they are.

Lots of people in high school in the US are able to use a computer very well and do pretty much whatever they want as long as they take the subject.

It's all about the option of having it open to them.

eman66

It's madness.

My 12-year old son was very excited to be starting seconday school this year. This was mostly because he was looking forward to a real computer class. He was so disappointed when he saw the book. At 12 he is installing multiple operating systems, building raid, modifying .ini files to make his games run better, making patches, has read Programming For Dummies, understands the concepts and has done the coding excercises etc, etc, etc. If he was asked to build a computer from scratch I say he could do it. Most of his friends would be very comfortable with computers also.

It's no longer a new technology. They should be leaving secondary school as learned in computing as they are in the other sciences, i.e, physics, chemistry, biology.

ECDL in 4th and 5th year? :eek: No computer aspect to Accounting :eek:

It's going to be a boring and somewhat wasted 5 years for him, as far as computing is concerned. Maybe he'll find alternative stimulation from his Religion classes, books and exams . Yes, you heard me. Religion exams

STBR

sharky86 wrote: »

• Basic computer applications. E.g. using MS Word, PowerPoint, Excel, Access, etc.
• Graphic Design. Using Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop, etc. [I can guarantee loads of people would love this if it was available].
• Some sort of programming and web development/design course(s) for those of us who are interested in that sort of thing.
• A Business course more orientated towards owning a software or a web business. I.e. A tech business.

All of these courses a way too in depth to be prop thought at leaving cert level and to be used to any sort of productive level in business

What do you mean to be used to a productive level in business?

I'm suggesting the business be a new separate business course.
I.e. an eBusiness course.

sharky86 wrote: »

I would suppect that you would need more than 18 - 20 months worth of 40 min class's.

18-20 months? Definitely not for any basic programs like Word, Excel, etc.

Sure the ECDL can be done in a week or two and it incorporates these.

sharky86 wrote: »

hence their are kept to 3rd level where if you do have a natural knack with computers you can focus on them and not have to worry about keeping good grades in in the basics of geography, French etc. this coupled with the extream cost of setting up any of them courses and the compartively low percentage of students that would actually enjoy and make use of the subject and not try to access bebo,facebook and various x rated web sites by using proxies of course

Well I doubt they're going to enjoy the current subjects like Irish and French any more.

Access sites against the policy?

Why would you penalize those who would make use of the subject(s), because of others not following guidelines?

That's just stooping to their level.

If they're seen on a site against policy, then they get maybe a warning, and then a ban - it's as easy as that.

Back to the "enjoyment" point: This would be a "Choice" subject, so you only do it if you pick it.

Therefore anyone who wouldn't like it has no need to do it.

Fad

Because it could make the Leaving Cert somehow relevant to a subject you can take in college, which is just kinda silly.

STBR

eman66 wrote: »

It's madness.

My 12-year old son was very excited to be starting seconday school this year. This was mostly because he was looking forward to a real computer class. He was so disappointed when he saw the book. At 12 he is installing multiple operating systems, building raid, modifying .ini files to make his games run better, making patches, has read Programming For Dummies, understands the concepts and has done the coding excercises etc, etc, etc. If he was asked to build a computer from scratch I say he could do it. Most of his friends would be very comfortable with computers also.

It's no longer a new technology. They should be leaving secondary school as learned in computing as they are in the other sciences, i.e, physics, chemistry, biology.

ECDL in 4th and 5th year? :eek: No computer aspect to Accounting :eek:

It's going to be a boring and somewhat wasted 5 years for him, as far as computing is concerned. Maybe he'll find alternative stimulation from his Religion classes, books and exams . Yes, you heard me. Religion exams

Don't even get me started on that book... It's laughing material.

Precisely my point, those are great things for your son to know - they should be nurtured; not overwritten by sludge from a fictional book highly modified and written a thousand or more years ago.

I believe they should be leaving far more learned than even those subjects.
A huge number of jobs will require computers, and this number is growing every single day.

It's a huge joke. I could tell you about much, much, worse things.


It's good you understand where I'm coming from though; this country needs to kick itself into gear and get with the times.

And it's definitely not right that your son won't benefit even ONE single Leaving Cert. point for college from his excellent IT knowledge.

Backwards country that it is.

It's reasons like this I'm leaving as soon as I can.

And if your son wants to pursue a career/entrepreneurship in this field, I can guarantee he'd have a much better opportunity in a different country.

Just something to keep in mind.

sharky86

SirDarren wrote: »

What do you mean to be used to a productive level in business?

I'm suggesting the business be a new separate business course.
I.e. an eBusiness course.


18-20 months? Definitely not for any basic programs like Word, Excel, etc.

Sure the ECDL can be done in a week or two and it incorporates these.


Well I doubt they're going to enjoy the current subjects like Irish and French any more.

Access sites against the policy?

Why would you penalize those who would make use of the subject(s), because of others not following guidelines?

That's just stooping to their level.

If they're seen on a site against policy, then they get maybe a warning, and then a ban - it's as easy as that.

Back to the "enjoyment" point: This would be a "Choice" subject, so you only do it if you pick it.

Therefore anyone who wouldn't like it has no need to do it.

And therefore you would only have a very small persentage of students who would avail of this and would not be worth the costings. Subjents like Graphic Design and programming weather in Java, C++ or even just operating systems like oracal, peoplesoft, linux can and do take a much longer time to become proefficent enough with them for you to become employable and make a company money. you can not know learn the in's and outs of these subjects in such a small timeframe. you need to fucus your attention on these for a prolonged period of time in order to become efficent.

You can also not gain Leaving cert points for subjects that can be next to near fully taught in a week or two like the ECDL and various word processing which brings me back to my first comment that it can not usd as easy marks.

To the OP with the 12 year old son, congrat's on having such an intelligent son. however I have friends that currently work in IT that still find it hard to keep up to date with current software, hardware etc and they would spend 50+ hours a week surrounded by it. A vast majority of them would also have masters in different IT fields and would defo agree that it just can not be learnt to a productive level in such a short time frame

pjtb

sharky86 wrote: »

And therefore you would only have a very small persentage of students who would avail of this and would not be worth the costings. Subjents like Graphic Design and programming weather in Java, C++ or even just operating systems like oracal, peoplesoft, linux can and do take a much longer time to become proefficent enough with them for you to become employable and make a company money. you can not know learn the in's and outs of these subjects in such a small timeframe. you need to fucus your attention on these for a prolonged period of time in order to become efficent.

This subject, in my opinion, would not be aiming for 100% proficiency in IT related areas. Leaving Cert French does not aim for fluent speakers. No LC subject even attempts to cover all areas of a discipline, or go into any area in full depth.

STBR

sharky86 wrote: »

And therefore you would only have a very small persentage of students who would avail of this and would not be worth the costings. Subjents like Graphic Design and programming weather in Java, C++ or even just operating systems like oracal, peoplesoft, linux can and do take a much longer time to become proefficent enough with them for you to become employable and make a company money. you can not know learn the in's and outs of these subjects in such a small timeframe. you need to fucus your attention on these for a prolonged period of time in order to become efficent.

You can also not gain Leaving cert points for subjects that can be next to near fully taught in a week or two like the ECDL and various word processing which brings me back to my first comment that it can not usd as easy marks.

To the OP with the 12 year old son, congrat's on having such an intelligent son. however I have friends that currently work in IT that still find it hard to keep up to date with current software, hardware etc and they would spend 50+ hours a week surrounded by it. A vast majority of them would also have masters in different IT fields and would defo agree that it just can not be learnt to a productive level in such a short time frame

I never mentioned any OSs.

And it doesn't matter how "employable" they make you, this is about at least getting you started and getting you points.

Also, I'm not talking really difficult programming.

If a student couldn't pick up Graphic Design after 2 years of 6 periods per week, then there is something seriously wrong with that person.

The same with basic programming languages like PHP - 2 years and they'd be definitely about to sit an exam in it - which is set by the same people anyway! It's all relative.
When I taught myself PHP in a couple of months initially, I was pretty much to do anything I wanted, pull data from databases, etc.

See what I said above ^

Are you kidding? I'm saying that they tailor the courses exactly so it's a 2 year course.
More material than the ECDL, and less than a degree. Find a medium.

Once again. The tests would be based on what they have been able to learn for 2 years. Not on what some guru programmer has been learning for over a decade.

sharky86

but didnt you just cover the basics of computing during the ECDL then?? you really can not go much futher than that with out goin into depth

STBR

pjtb wrote: »

This subject, in my opinion, would not be aiming for 100% proficiency in IT related areas. Leaving Cert French does not aim for fluent speakers. No LC subject even attempts to cover all areas of a discipline, or go into any area in full depth.

This is EXACTLY what I've said in my post above.

We're not trying to make them gurus - It's just whatever can be taught in the 2 years, will be taught. And then only tested on that material.

Just like that great comparison with the French.

It's the same with things like Business studies - why do I need a 4 year degree after studying it in secondary school for 5 years?
Because secondary school gives you a great start (if not almost enough totally).

It would be the same with computers.

pjtb

SirDarren wrote: »

This is EXACTLY what I've said in my post above.

We're not trying to make them gurus - It's just whatever can be taught in the 2 years, will be taught. And then only tested on that material.

Just like that great comparison with the French.

It's the same with things like Business studies - why do I need a 4 year degree after studying it in secondary school for 5 years?
Because secondary school gives you a great start (if not almost enough totally).

It would be the same with computers.

Spot on!

sharky86

I beleive they already have this and call it level 6in the national frame work

randylonghorn

jhegarty wrote: »

At least you can do relevant modern courses like latin.

Actually, you'll find Latin an exceptionally good base for studying European languages, including English itself.

I agree though with the basic point of this thread. I suspect funds is a lot of the problem for DES.

STBR

sharky86 wrote: »

I beleive they already have this and call it level 6in the national frame work

Wow...

Even after all the valid points.


Anyone else like to input?

pjtb

A computers subject would have to deal with more areas than those dealt with specifically in the ECDL, using Word/Excel/access etc. etc. is only a very narrow area. It would of course be included in the subject, but would not have to be its specific focus.

I'd say there would be great scope for electives in things like computer game design or other relevant, related areas. The actual physical make up of computers would also have to be included, maybe not in great detail though.

I'd say practical and project work couldn't account for more than 60% if it is to be a recognised LC/JC subject, very few if any subjects would exceed that percentage. A written paper would have to be included.

And the point about level 6 in the national framework, loads of subjects in the leaving cert have relevant fetac or other courses. But you can't study those along with the LC!

spurious

The Applied Leaving Cert. has a compulsory IT module and the option of a Vocational Specialism in IT.

The Dept of Ed. and Sc. won't even fund necessary special needs classes. They are not going to equip schools with IT equipment and keep them up to date.

Pygmalion

Probably an unpopular opinion but I'm going into CA next year and I honestly think I would've hated a computer course in Secondary school.
I've seen the kinds of things they do in "Computer Science" high school classes in America and stuff and it just seems like it puts people off computers even more, I'd say if I had to sit through one of those I would've lost any interest I had.

Basic computer skills are possessed by pretty much everyone with access to a computer from a young enough age anyway so don't need to be taught.
And programming doesn't suit everyone, doing it right requires good problem solving skills which a lot of people don't have, and it can't really be taught, since like 99% of people would put it down on their subject choices just because either they think they'll enjoy more than they actually will or intend to spend all class on Bebo/Facebook that would mean a horribly dumbed down and boring syllabus, and might put off the people with genuine talent.

pjtb

spurious wrote: »

The Applied Leaving Cert. has a compulsory IT module and the option of a Vocational Specialism in IT.

The Dept of Ed. and Sc. won't even fund necessary special needs classes. They are not going to equip schools with IT equipment and keep them up to date.

You're right. But it should be one of the first potential subjects assessed by the NCCA whenever funds become available. In my school the Technical Drawing room had to be fitted out with a roomful of computers and the whole room layout changed (requiring new workstations instead of desks) for the new Design and Communication Graphics course . Granted this took place before (but only slightly before) gov. funds ran completely dry, but it was still done.

spurious

I doubt the Department pays for any technical support or upgraded packages.
In a few years the spanking new PCs and their packages will be out of date.

The level of funding for schools in this country is ludicrous. For example, the compulsory 'swyin flew' precautions (sprays, hand gels, extra cleaning products etc.) all have to be paid for, but schools were given no additional funds for all the extra supplies. For our school, it has already eaten up the funds for about four new PCs and will continue to cost the price of a PC weekly.