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Genbukan ninpo for self defense?
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02-09-2009 11:09am#1
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This is the martial art. I see nothing there that I haven't seen elsewhere. It all seems a little strange tbh.
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Surely a student would need to train for a lot more than 1 1/2 hours once a week to become proficient in this art. Why train only one night per week? or in the case of the Blarney club, once per month.
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I'm in no way knocking your style but once a week in any man's book is not enough.0 -
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I had a chance to train with a couple of lads from Genbukan Ninpo last Tuesday night, so I went
An hour doing rolls and breakfalls got me sweating and lightly warmed up, not used to heading for the ground of my own accord so the rolls were awkward and I've pains still from hitting the deck kind of hard and ugly
We then went through some etiquette and how to do their L Stance guarding block position. I'm from a mainly TKD background so that's how I'd describe the stance. We went through a few versions of similar to one step sparring, blocking and striking as near as possible to what was shown.
Again the TKD training kicked in and we (my brother in law and I) started doing TKD stances and breathing. Some similarities and some differences, but consistent with what I've seen in other very traditional Japanese Martial Arts.
We then went on to do some throws from grabs, very similar to some Daito Ryu Aiki Jiu Jitsu I've been shown. Whether it was Hapkido in Tramore (well lads, esp. Quillo), Kaze Aherashi, Aikido, Prof. Clark and Paul PMA-Ire, all had the same basic structure and flavour. I like joint locking and throwing and that was what inclined me to try this art first off. The things we were shown were standard enough across most arts I've seen who do this stuff.
The class was easy going and at times comical (me trying to roll and crashing into my Brother In Law) but also very formal with an old Japanese style to it. The lads instructing were sound and good at what they do.
The head instructor also trains BJJ in Waterford and I've a feeling we've met before, maybe at John Kav's seminar? Really nice guy and very dedicated to his art.
The only things I didn't like, and they are down to me heading towards old fart status at warp speed.
Rolling, I spent a lot of time avoiding going down (Matron!) in TKD, and my body is in bits even now from impacting the ground like a sack of loosely packed shiite! I suppose I would loosen out in time but that's tough going at the start! Our first inclination would be to break the Uke's grip and smash him with digs and a good kicking, but the joint lock/control and takedown gives a very nice alternative to going ape man on a drunk Uncle or similar.
Learning new terms. If I was doing Hapkido there would be some carryover from the Korean I know from TKD. RBSD like with Mick Coup or Lee Morrison is usually in English. I dunno if I want to embark on learning another set of words for techniques at this stage.
I really enjoyed the time spent with the lads, I can see the attraction for learning a very formal and ancient Japanese style. I don't think it's for me though, I'm really sore after it and not in a muscular exertion kind of way!
Our local TKD club is very sport and tournament focused right now, younger mans game, which is why I'm not there these days. I've also started to like C2 CORE Combatives and want to pursue that type of training. That is why I am looking forward to meeting Lee Morrison soonish up in Gorey (RBSD) and hopefully Yomchi will be there (TKD).
I am still very interested in some kind of casual learning of Jiu Jitsu and Hapkido style locks and throws, must ask Paul O'Leary about that. Seems there is a Polish lad teaching Krav Maga here in town, so that's next up for a visit!0 -
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Hi Colm good to hear from you. How's the kid? must be nearly ready for school by now?
My apologies Colm, I was a member of a practically identical orginazition run by the same people with the same instructors, teaching virtually identical techniques in an identical manner. Most of whom wear both patches on their gi. Different flavours of the same soup, shall we say. At least one of your senior guys does anywayHello David, Colm Fitzsimons here from the Genbukan.Just to reply to your post. You are not or never were a member of the Genbukan for 6 years and to claim that you were is an absolute falsehood.
I trained twice daily (more or less) in Japan for almost 2 months, Attented 6 (I think) weekend seminars, and about a few other classes. Around 150 hours or so, i would guess. While I'm aware that this isn't long enough to obtain mastery, you can definitely decide if what you're looking at is practical or not by this stage....you did not train regularly even for the short time you were affiliated to us under a fully qualified, trained Genbukan instructor or attend regular Genbukan classes during that time.
I'm making a point about technique here. The omote kote gyaku (for example) is the same on both the KJJR and Genbukan syllabi. Along with dozens more. If the one I know from the Ju-jutsu doesn't work in a real situation, (and I was graded and passed by the highest rank in the country on this), I can assume the Ninpo one wont be any better. Or did the ninja know something that the samurai didn't?
That I can remember, there was one in dingle, one (or two) in Brighton, one in galway, one in belgium, one in japan, we had the Shibu -cho down in our big hall at least once, one in Meath, somewhere, where we stayed over and did the cross country stuff in the morning, one in Viginia, on the first floor of somewhere, (when one of the ballincollig brothers had collected me from the bus station) and there was one in Navan, in a school, if I recall. (possibly the weekly class?) I have a feeling I went to this one twice as I can recall getting changed on stage behind a curtain, ond once on the hardwood floor. Possibly not though.I saw you at one or maybe two seminars in Ireland when you were with the KJJR and I personally train at every class, I remember seeing you at one of them but it may have been two, I will give you the benefit of the doubt. This was during the entire time you and your group were affiliated to us.
Lol, yes I remember that quite well. You are unable to straighten your arm due to a (bicycle??) accident. I recall at least four masters coming over to show me how it was done and not one of them was able to straighten that elbow. Only the grandmaster realised your condition and quickly changed the technique so as to complete the takedown and restraint. He made me take a note that one must continually change the technique until youre successful. I still tell that story actually as a caveat to never blindly obey a syllabus.....When we were in Japan, you tried to put some arm locks on me and when you couldn’t you kept asking me why you couldn’t put them on me, even though I was not resisting and relaxed in order to help you learn them and you were supposed to have already learnt them. I told you that you had to go and learn the patterns correctly and continue practising. You looked totally disillusioned especially after all of your previous years of martial arts training and I could understand at the time what that must have been like.
Actually well aware of Shibu-cho's help both in Ireland and Japan, on both a personal and professional level, but since neither he nor any other instrucor of mine has anything to do with the assertion that the Ninpo syllabus as taught, anywhere I've seen it anyway, is impractical for self defence, I'm just going to leave them out of it altogether....it was a Genbukan instructor helping you, something that you may not be aware of.
I had a class stopped so an instructor could make an ar$ehole out me for being unable to sit in a stress position. Class did not resume until I had returned to seiza. Several people remarked afterwards that the seiza section seemed to be particulalry long that day, almost certainly as a result of me having to come up to my knees so much. I don't want to get all 'a few good men' here, but you see where I'm going against the free will arguement?... nobody is forced to do anything they don’t or can’t do, you have a choice, and you have free will.
When I saw the importance of rules, relative to the importance of training, I realised that would only make me a teacher. never a fighter.... when you join an organisation you have to obey their rules and regulations.
That's what I did. Never looked back.... If you don’t want to obey their rules and regulations, you simply walk out.
Again, this is nothing personal between me and any other instructor. I never had a problem with self defence in Ryoi Shinto Ryu. In fact I found it far better than the Genbukan, due to their desire to spar in scenario based combat (in a crowd, at a door, as a bodyguard protecting a client etc.) I found anyone who instructed there to be very capable of SD stuff. There were so many bouncers, bodyguards, security personel, defence and police force guys training there, you could always get to mix it up and try it for real. (or as close to real as you can get in a controlled environment)...Please do not use the Genbukan as an excuse for your inability to come to terms with any previous bad experiences you have had in the martial arts even if it has a tenuous overlap into our school.
I guess what brought it home for me were 4 seperate incidents in Japan during training;
1) was your elbow, and the blind adherense to the syllabus and a technique that was clearly never going to work on you. I felt, there was a lack of creativity.
2) When I asked my partner if he'd like me to attack a little more realistically, I was sneered at and told that we were no pratising 'street martial arts', but 'traditonal martial arts' and as such, any attempt to make it realistic was just stupid. This actually scared me, as at the time I was a bouncer on a very rough door in one of dublin's crime areas. If I could not make it realistic then it's first test could be in a life or death situation.
3) When my long term partner on one trip, who had delighted in throwing me through the mats, realised he would have to take as many throws as he gave me one day, he refused to train with me for the remainder of the day. To clarify, he came looking for me to practice his throws on, and when I said I too would be working on a throwing syllabus, he said he actually wanted to study sword that day. That's a bully, pure and simple.
4) During a discussion of real life anecdotes, a -54kg, 17 year old, swore blind that if anyone attacked him, anyone, he could floor him with a downward chop to the neck. I asked if he'd ever done this, or seen this done, he said 'I don't need to, my sensei says it works' I asked if he taught it would stop me and while he swore it would, could not be persuaded to try it for any price. That goes beyond bad training. That's downright dangerous to give an impressionable young person the idea that they are so powerful.
Very gracious of you Colm but no, I never had a personal problem with any Genbukan Instructor whose class I was a part of, in any country, at any time. Once again, my problem is with a lack of practicality in the training. Not the syllabus itself, but in the choreographed fashion in which everything is taught.If however any Genbukan instructor has caused you concern due to differences or personal feelings then I will apologise completely on their behalf - something we are not afraid to do so we can move on and get on with our training without conflict.
the exact phrase was 'the only people who spar are the ones who need to feed an ego'. The word vulgar was used by a high level english student, as a possible reaction to a request to spar with the Japanese. They said that asking someone for a spar could even be seen as a challenge and would certainly get me in trouble....nobody ever said the flowery words you used to describe our sparring, you simply made those words up yourself.
Unfortunately the operative word here is eventually. Anyone I ever asked said that it was rarely done in their respective dojo as emphasis was placed on learning syllabus techniques....will allow you to eventually see the full scope of Genbukan training including sparring but if you don’t attend any classes then you won’t see any.
Just to clarify, could you give me a rough guide line as to how often sparring is practised in the Genbukan?
Thanks Colm. Hope things are going your way too. Regards to your family.I am happy that you have found a martial art that suits you. I wish you a wonderful and successful martial arts career.0 -
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Sid_Justice wrote: »It's hard to imagine these places still exist. The fallacies, it's almost like it's 2004 again.
These technique when shown to a white belt doesn't work? but the black belt version does work? Why should the white belt version if it's crap.
'Traditional Japanese Martial Arts' with all this Samurai and Ninja stuff just sounds like (pseudo)-historical reenactment for Japanophiles.
Sorta like a lot of lads training in BJJ who think they're replicating their hero's in the UFC, buying only the latest multi-patch Gi, Sprawl Fight Shorts & Tapout Tee's & hoodies & telling their mates their training in MMA until you scratch the surface & its a BJJ class they're taking..
And so if a club/teacher is selling its version of some ancient Japanese style, feck it if its enjoyable and getting young lads off their fat arses - what harm?.
You know what style I found most spectacular in competition? (as a spectator) - Kendo!.
I've worked with lads from all styles on the doors, best lads have been boxers, Aikidoka, Ninjitsu players and Judoka.
Feck it, while I'm on a rant I'll continue
Tell ya something else.. For all the stick combatives and the Krav heads get here, I'd have more confidence working with someone tapping away at some KM or Combatives than I would some with young lad training only BJJ... Go one the eye gouger's 0 -
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Romeo Crashing Rucksack wrote: »Sorta like a lot of lads training in BJJ who think they're replicating their hero's in the UFC, buying only the latest multi-patch Gi, Sprawl Fight Shorts & Tapout Tee's & hoodies & telling their mates their training in MMA until you scratch the surface & its a BJJ class they're taking..
And so if a club/teacher is selling its version of some ancient Japanese style, feck it if its enjoyable and getting young lads off their fat arses - what harm?.
You know what style I found most spectacular in competition? (as a spectator) - Kendo!.
I've worked with lads from all styles on the doors, best lads have been boxers, Aikidoka, Ninjitsu players and Judoka.
Feck it, while I'm on a rant I'll continue
Tell ya something else.. For all the stick combatives and the Krav heads get here, I'd have more confidence working with someone tapping away at some KM or Combatives than I would some with young lad training only BJJ... Go one the eye gouger's
Excellent post! And i must say kendo is a fantastic sport to watch!0 -
Hi, apologies for the late response, I have been up the my neck with work. And still nothing to show for it, haha.
Perhaps you could give me an estimate of the time spent under Genbukan instructors then, based on the information I have provided.150 hours of training in the Genbukan - this simply isn't true
Not so different that I can't draw a direct comparison of the two schools, which was my point originally.Omote kote gyaku in Ninpo and KJJR, while similar, are not the same pattern and are therefore different...
Just not the grand master, nor two 7th or 8th Dans? Incidentally, you were the only person I couldn't put that lock onto.... dozens of not just instructors but fellow students can put that lock on me because they are drilled in the pattern...
Actually, in my experience great emphasis was placed on repeating the syllabus verbatim, including where limbs not conected to the technique were placed. I understand this is a neccessary part of anachronism, but may be superfluous to the needs of the average self defence enthusiast.You should not continually do the same pattern on the same people, something which is taught in the Genbukan.
I didn't bring up ryoshin military personnel as some sort of p!ssing contest, I used it to illustrate a willingness to test the techniques....we have Genbukan members in Ireland who have fought in wars, and who are able to bring that true life experience to the dojo.
That's a fair point (I'm assuming you left out the 'not' in front of the would..surely do you not think that the majority of impressionable 17 year old's who are practicing a martial art would think that about their specific martial art.) It is still however, a learned response. Someone has told him that this move is so dangerous as to fell a 100kg guy charging you down. If he's not testing his stuff, then how does he know? I have met comparitively few 17 year old boxers who think that one blow will stop any attacker, regardless of size or aggression level.
Fair point, by the same token, it is unfair to quote my most minor grievance as representing my argument against the Genbukan....It's really not fair to quote a 17 year old as representing the Genbukan
That's an inferrence of your own creation to be honest. My only point was that as it's currently being taught, it was impractical for self defence....Your first post was both negative
From what I saw I could make out no discernable difference between the two schools, given that they share a lineage, teachers and even techniques....and very, very wrong, giving the impression that you were both experienced in our school for 6 years of training
Again, an inferrence on your part. I loved training in KJJR and Genbukan Ninpo. (Still have the tabi... and that you had no good experiences with us, that you learnt nothing in 6 years)
No but fully trained in the sister art that is thaught in conjuction with Genbukan. (Well not fully trained but he was 2nd Dan when I left) Plus many of my musings include other high level students (not neccessarily instructors) of the Genbukan, while attenting international seminars, or staying in Japan....not under a fully trained Genbukan instructor
Sorry mate, but to suggest I took something personally and that is my reason for not being a fan of the Genbukan self defence is wrong. To clear it up; I never had any serious problem with anyone in the Genbukan. By and large, they are lovely people. My problem was with the unwilingness to try it out, and the blaise attitude that went along with knowing everything worked, as passed down from senior to junior, in perpetuity....although personal to you...
Actually, I think that it is the fundamental flaw underlying Genbukan, and how it's taught, but we can agree to disagree if you like....are not in any way major and do not reflect badly on us.
Anyway, I hope that lays it all to rest. Best of luck for the future, and give my regards to those that can remember me.0 -
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