Saris Joule - Dashoard for power junkies

Lumen

Got this in an e-mail from Saris this morning.

Saris Joule.

Not available yet, but looks like (at last!) Garmin has some proper competition.

edit: site seems broken, here's the the e-mail

blorg

I wouldn't particularly see this as competition for Garmin, there is no GPS which is sort of key with the Garmin.

This thing is more focused on presenting the power data in different ways (as you would expect from a device coming from Saris.) It's a better onboard power computer, and I am sure much better than the Garmin at analysing and presenting power data; I believe the Garmin is pretty basic there. But it is not really a Garmin competitor.

Raam

If one was ever to get a power meter built into a wheel, should it be done on your good wheel or just on a training one?
Do folk race with a power meter or just use it for training purposes?

blorg

People do race with them, it is commonly said that is some of the best data you can get. I know I find my heart rate data from races useful, gives me an indication of whether I was really trying. The races I have won or placed HR was higher in the final sprint. It is for this reason that I am leaning towards power in the cranks (probably CinQo as SRM is just too expensive.)

Raam

blorg wrote: »

People do race with them, it is commonly said that is some of the best data you can get. I know I find my heart rate data from races useful, gives me an indication of whether I was really trying. The races I have won or placed HR was higher in the final sprint. It is for this reason that I am leaning towards power in the cranks (probably CinQo as SRM is just too expensive.)

I thought I reada alright that you won a race. Tell us some more about it!

tunney

blorg wrote: »

People do race with them, it is commonly said that is some of the best data you can get. I know I find my heart rate data from races useful, gives me an indication of whether I was really trying. The races I have won or placed HR was higher in the final sprint. It is for this reason that I am leaning towards power in the cranks (probably CinQo as SRM is just too expensive.)

Ah but hugely limited in the choice of cranks with the CinQo.

blorg

tunney wrote: »

Ah but hugely limited in the choice of cranks with the CinQo.

Yes, and the SRM is undoubtedly better, but the CinQo is under half the price. I think I'll live with a Rotor Agilis crankset, I don't think it is going to lose me a race compared to my Dura Ace one. My choice is between a PowerTap with DA crank, a CinQo with choice of wheels or no power at all here, SRM is not really an option. If it is good enough for Sastre I think I will live with it.

@Raam- two wins, two seconds and a fifth, got me 3rd Orwell rider in league and 11th overall I mean to write it my first racing season experience some time but too busy cycling at the moment!

Lumen

Lots of people buy 705s without needing the GPS functions, just for the display configurability and data recording - they are often bundled with power meter packages.

If you can afford to splash cash on fancy race wheels, you can probably afford to get them built with Powertaps. Or else just race on Open Pros/whatever.

Wheelsmith look pretty good value.

I'm not convinced about the Cinqos; SRM is the price of two or three decent PTs.

Raam

blorg wrote: »

@Raam- two wins, two seconds and a fifth, got me 3rd Orwell rider in league and 11th overall I mean to write it my first racing season experience some time but too busy cycling at the moment!

Excellent Well done, looking forward to reading all about it

Billy Whizz

Raam wrote: »

If one was ever to get a power meter built into a wheel, should it be done on your good wheel or just on a training one?
Do folk race with a power meter or just use it for training purposes?

I have my powertap built into a training wheel. Weighs a ton but I use it for training and league nights. Am still undecided about whether to have a powertap built up for racing. I like to race with no computers at all, but would like to have the power data to look at afterwards (would cover it up with tape during races though ). Expensive though!

Lumen

Billy Whizz wrote: »

I have my powertap built into a training wheel. Weighs a ton but I use it for training and league nights. Am still undecided about whether to have a powertap built up for racing. I like to race with no computers at all, but would like to have the power data to look at afterwards (would cover it up with tape during races though ). Expensive though!

PT weight isn't an big issue since it's at the centre of the wheel.

Besides which, a nice Edge tubular 1.25 with ELF/SL+ hubs and 16/20 aerolites weighs about 1100g, whereas an Edge 45 clincher with ELF/SL+ and 20/24 comes in under 1700g.

Not that I have a spreadsheet of such things, of course. That would be sad.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

I'm not convinced about the Cinqos; SRM is the price of two or three decent PTs.

Why are you gone off the CinQo- crank choice? I think the Rotor cranks would be fine, to be honest the other ones probably would be fine either.

I currently have two good lightweight wheelsets (DT RR1450 and R-SYS) and might get deep section down the road (although power is priority over that) so not mad keen on the PT wheel option.

Only advantage of the PT to my mind is that it would give me the option of a compact crankset for the Alps/Pyrenees etc.

Billy Whizz

Lumen wrote: »

PT weight isn't an big issue since it's at the centre of the wheel.

It's not the weight of the PT hub I was referring to, but the total weight of the wheel.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

Why are you gone off the CinQo- crank choice? I think the Rotor cranks would be fine, to be honest the other ones probably would be fine either.

ISTR Rotor Agilis won't fit my BB86. SRAM S900 would be fine, and maybe FSA Team Issue, but I went off the idea of being stuck with old, ugly cranksets and having to worry about compatability in future bike purchases. If there was a single BB standard I might feel differently.

I've decided to just price in a PT to any wheel purchase, and not buy it at all if the total is too rich. Consequently I'm sticking with my Open Pros for the time being, but they're really fine.

Whilst PT restricts you to mostly hand built wheels, I'm not sure that's much of a sacrifice. I had a good experience with Parker International (apart from the spoke colour) and either wheelsmith.co.uk or wheelbuilder.com look able to fulfill all future needs.

edit: of course you have a bunch of nice wheels already, so I understand why you'd be keen on a crank powermeter

Diarmuid

I put together a spreadsheet with a few figures for powermeters, costs and weights. Feel free to edit and add anything you would find useful

EDIT: I just added powermeters that are wireless and ANT+ compatible.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

I put together a spreadsheet with a few figures for powermeters, costs and weights.

Cool. IMO the reference rear hub should be the DT 240s, which is 225g, rather than the Ultegra. If you're in the market for €1000+ power meter solutions, you're unlikely to use an Ultegra hub.

Weight wise, Cinqo adds about 60g (to admittedly heavier cranks) whereas the SRM and PT add somewhere in the region of 200-250g, except for the least expensive PTs which are more like 300-400g. I've also read that the actual weight of the FSA K-Force Light cranks differs considerably from claimed, but because everyone lies about weights it's difficult to be more accurate with this stuff.

Also, Cinqo has a user servicable battery (SRM is return to mfr IIRC) but hasn't yet passed Euro electrical compliance (supposedly should be done by end of 2009) so isn't available for direct sale to non-US addresses.

Diarmuid

Updated with the DT

Did you see this link? I googled around for more info but nothing available yet.

blorg

Cheers for that Diarmuid. Seems like on price/weight issues the PT and the CinQo are tied so comes down to whether you want the freedom to change your rear wheel or to change your crank...

Diarmuid

BTW If you recognise that I have made a mistake in any of the figures, please correct them. Write access is open to all.

blorg

Diarmuid wrote: »

Updated with the DT

Did you see this link? I googled around for more info but nothing available yet.

Interesting, it has been tried before and a pedal based system is also being worked on by these two Irish guys in my club (Orwell Wheelers.)

tunney

blorg wrote: »

Interesting, it has been tried before and a pedal based system is also being worked on by these two Irish guys in my club (Orwell Wheelers.)

The same approach to power measurement that other companies have abandoned?

Have you seen any prototypes? Anything to suggest they have overcome the problems of previous attempts?

blorg

tunney wrote: »

The same approach to power measurement that other companies have abandoned?

Have you seen any prototypes? Anything to suggest they have overcome the problems of previous attempts?

No, I have no inside information. I am aware it has been tried unsuccessfully before, I imagine in particular there would most likely be issues with not registering certain parts of the stroke other than pressing straight down (although how much those other parts contribute to power is another question.)

As a niche product, power meters are definitely more expensive than they need to be, hopefully someone will get their act together and start mass producing something affordable (this has certainly happened with just about every other application of strain gauges.)

Diarmuid

Looks like the Joule will be (somewhat) pricy.

CycleOps will offer the Joule in both a compact, indoor-specific 2.0 version (US$499/€399) with a backlit black-and-white LCD screen along with an indoor/outdoor 3.0 (US$549/€499) with a larger and finer colour display and additional controls for use with one of CycleOps' electronically controlled indoor trainers.

Lumen

Along with the usual bits of information like average wattage, ride distance, time, total elevation gain, etc, Joule can display very handy figures like training stress score, kilojoules expended, time spent in various power zones and how much time was spent above a certain effort level – ie. how many 'matches' you burned.

Very interesting features. I imagine some of that might be occasionally useful whilst racing (the matches bit) although not if your competitors can read it. :pac:

I also like the idea of not having to do post-ride faffing with a laptop.

blorg

To be honest I don't think many people have the time or inclination to look at their computers much while racing (other than time trials.) Would be good for training though as would reviewing the data afterwards.

Lumen

blorg wrote: »

To be honest I don't think many people have the time or inclination to look at their computers much while racing (other than time trials.)

You need to try a few solo breakaways. :pac:

Actually, best keep the eyes on the road.

blorg

Lumen wrote: »

You need to try a few solo breakaways. :pac:

Actually, best keep the eyes on the road.

Solo breakaways are almost certainly doomed. I have been in a few breakaways but was always caught, I reckon I am best with a bunch sprint finish. My best breakaway I was leading, absolutely on the rivet, when coming up to the corner I noticed the marshal had gone- presumably to the finish, it was the final lap. OK I reckoned and around the corner. Wrong corner.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

BTW If you recognise that I have made a mistake in any of the figures, please correct them. Write access is open to all.

I've stuck a few more wheel weights and prices in there and fiddled with the formatting.

The PT weight penalty seems to come in mostly under 200g, except where the standard wheels have very fancy hubs (Zipp and Mavic Cosmics). Whilst the Cinqos in theory weigh around 60g, the fact that they can't be fitted to the lightest cranksets pushes the weight out to about the same as the PT, and a bit less than the SRMs.

The DV46s and Edge 45s still seem top clinchers for a combination of strong hubs, light weight, aero-ness. I found someone who claims to have 15,000 miles out of a set of Reynolds DV46 carbon clinchers used as "daily riders", and the Edge's are reportedly even stronger. Although I can't imagine he uses the brakes much.

Diarmuid

Lumen wrote: »

I've stuck a few more wheel weights and prices in there and fiddled with the formatting..

Good man!

Lumen wrote: »

The DV46s and Edge 45s still seem top clinchers for a combination of strong hubs, light weight, aero-ness. I found someone who claims to have 15,000 miles out of a set of Reynolds DV46 carbon clinchers used as "daily riders", and the Edge's are reportedly even stronger. Although I can't imagine he uses the brakes much.

Some crazy prices there!

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

Some crazy prices there!

Yes, assessments of value for money in this space require complete detachment from the realities of world recession, Ireland's economic meltdown, starving children and the fate of our future generations.

Still, it's cheaper than a crack habit.

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

Still, it's cheaper than a crack habit.

yes, but only marginally.

Diarmuid

Added a price per g for the wheels. Hard to justify going past the OpenPro's. If you wanted fancy wheels you could justify the FFWD F4C. I guess.

Lumen

Diarmuid wrote: »

Added a price per g for the wheels. Hard to justify going past the OpenPro's. If you wanted fancy wheels you could justify the FFWD F4C. I guess.

Changed the formula to represent €/g compared to Open Pro PT, which I think is better for assessing relative wheel choices, although not that meaningful since the more aero wheels are heavier but almost always faster.

The only ones that come close to €2/g (my personal edge-of-sanity) are the tubulars. Agreed that the FFWDs look reasonable value, relatively speaking.

blorg

Losing weight off bike components is like air resistance in that the expense of dropping it increases exponentially the more you drop...

Diarmuid

Hot off the presses
If this actually does what it says on the tin (Q1 2010) at a reasonable price, it should really shake up the power meter market

niceonetom

Diarmuid wrote: »

Hot off the presses
If this actually does what it says on the tin (Q1 2010) at a reasonable price, it should really shake up the power meter market

Interesting...

Possible stupid question alert:
Does this Vector system only work off one pedal? Would there not be a bit of a danger of ending up horribly asymmetrical given that only effort from one legs would result in bigger numbers? If feedback is biased to one side surely, being the parsimonious (ok, lazy) beings we are, we'd unconsciously put our power preferentially to that side.

Or are there sensors in both pedals?

Maybe a single sensor could be moved from one pedal to the other every week or two to make sure the legs stay roughly the same size?

I would love a power meter but the technology is holding its high cost incredibly durably in these days of disposable ipods. Cartel stuff I reckon.

Diarmuid

It is added to both pedals (25 grams extra each!)
Although I doubt it would make a whole lot of difference. You are not going to develop one leg more than the other just because you measure from one leg, even if you tried that would be hard. Ok push hard now, not now, now, not now ....etc ... 100 times a minute

The price will come down with competition, easier manufacturing , and increased volume. Same as heart monitors etc...

niceonetom

Diarmuid wrote: »

It is added to both pedals (25 grams extra each!)
Although I doubt it would make a whole lot of difference. You are not going to develop one leg more than the other just because you measure from one leg, even if you tried that would be hard. Ok push hard now, not now, now, not now ....etc ... 100 times a minute

I don't think so, it would be unconscious and favouring one side would just become part of your style over time - everyone's stroke is already asymmetrical, it wouldn't be hard to unknowingly exaggerate that asymmetry if that exaggerated action was rewarded with bigger numbers. Would make an interesting experiment I think. Still, moot point.

Diarmuid wrote: »

The price will come down with competition, easier manufacturing , and increased volume. Same as heart monitors etc...

They've been saying that for years! I can get a HRM in the bargain bin of lidl! Where's my powermeter??

blorg

My stroke was very asymetrical last year, to the point I did myself damage. Physio took one look at me and said your right leg is much bigger than your left. Had never noticed before but it was obvious when I looked in the mirror. Circumferences were completely different.

This looks interesting, 2 guys from my club are developing a system that goes in the cleat. Brim bros.

FrankGrimes

I've been toying with the idea of investing in a power meter and upgrading my PlanetX B Model wheels (which are actually perfectly fine though), but to be honest the permutations and combinations out there are a little dizzying cos I know zilch about wheels.

A PowerTap Pro would be fine for me, though that MetriGear one does look intriguing for sure, would be interested to hear first hand accounts of how well they work.

I looked at Diarmuid's spreadsheet but couldn't really follow it but it does look like Wheelsmith.co.uk have great prices here particularly as you get the front wheel included too. Of those wheel options available there, what would be the best ones to go for with sportives and an outside chance of racing next year in mind (very outside chance but don't want to invest in something and then find that if I do want to race something else might've been better).

I'm probably leaning towards waiting until spring time to decide on this and just focus on working on my Tacx Fortius trainer in what little free time I'll have between now and then, but if there's a great deal available now that might not be available in a few months, I might just be able to talk myself into it!

Lumen

FrankGrimes wrote: »

it does look like Wheelsmith.co.uk have great prices here particularly as you get the front wheel included too. Of those wheel options available there, what would be the best ones to go for with sportives and an outside chance of racing next year in mind (very outside chance but don't want to invest in something and then find that if I do want to race something else might've been better).

You could do worse than just buying a factory powertap wheel. I think they are built on Mavic Open Pro rims. I have these rims (albeit handbuilt) and they're fine.

Alternatively, speak to Derek from wheelsmith.co.uk. Here's an exchange I had with him recently:

> Wheelsmith,
>
> I'm after a new Powertap clincher wheelset.
>
> I've got a set of 28/36 Open Pros on 7800/SL+ hubs, but they've
> moved to the cyclocross bike and I'd like to replace them with
> something a bit lighter for my weightweenie road bike.
>
> In theory, the lightest setup would be IRD Cadence Road/VSR 24/28
> with aerolites or CX-rays, but you don't seem to offer that,
> presumably for a good reason.
>
> I'm more bothered by weight than aero as I'm more of a climber build
> (<70kg) and I'm not sure 30mm gives a huge advantage over box rims.
>
> Can you advise? I'll be using the wheels for training and racing on
> the fairly crap roads around Dublin.
>

Hi John,

I wouldn't recommend 24/28 Cadence rims for general training - and the
Irish roads might kill them. I can build them but would only recommend
those drillings for climbing.

The Aeros are a different prospect - very strong but still
comfortable. 20/24 is fine with them and that usually comes out at
around the same weight as a 28/32 Cadence setup with the same
spokes/hubs.

With a Pro+ on Aeros with ACI spokes you are looking at 1800g or so.
Take 100g off for CX-Rays and the SL+ is lighter still. You need to
add £85 for CX-Rays.

There are a huge variety of Powertap hubs/drillings so if you decide
what you want, let me know and I'll be able to advise on availability
from the suppliers.

All the best,
Derek

FrankGrimes

Thanks for that Lumen. I emailed them and Derek came back quite promptly with lots of info and a recommendation to go with 20h or 24h IRD Cadence Aero 30mm rims based on my scenario I had outlined to him.

A pair of those with a PowerTap Pro hub comes in at £998 (no computer - I'd sell my Edge 305 and buy an Edge 705).

Based on my limited knowledge, they seem like a decent set of wheels that are light enough but also quite sturdy and the price looks decent.

Adding in the Edge 705 would make it quite a serious investment so I'm still very much in two minds about it but it's good to have a decent option in mind. Would appreciate any thoughts on the wheel suitability or price.

Lumen

BikeSnob is on form today.

While a power meter is certainly an important tool for a professional cyclist, the bulk of them are of course sold to amateurs who misinterpret their amateur status and poor results as signs that they need to spend a huge amount of money on a power meter when in fact their amateur status and poor results are actually the very reasons they don't need a power meter. If you're an amateur, buying a power meter to train is like hiring an accountant to tell you how broke you are or like buying an iPhone just to check your Cannondale stock. Yet amateurs not only buy power meters, but they think $1,000 for a power meter is actually cheap. Clearly then, I will make a fortune when I introduce my own power meter at next year's Interbike, since it will be the cheapest and most accurate one ever. Yes, for $5 you'll get an LCD display which constantly flashes the message, "You suck."

FrankGrimes

Yeh that BikeSnob fella does like to run his mouth off alright, I'd say he's just a great man to have a pint with.

He does have a point though when you look at in absolute terms cos yeh $1,000 cash money is an awful lot of wedge for a hobbyist cyclist to spend in seeking to improve their performance. As I and a couple of others on here have said a few times though, when you look at it relatively the investment in a power meter stands up to scrutiny relative to investment in other bike kit, which let's be honest, many cyclists are only too happy to throw money at.

Different people utilize tools in different ways, and I'm someone that looks at my wattage on the road and respond to it (generally pushing myself to go harder on the type of rolling terrain that represents most ground covered on most long routes in Ireland). Others will spend more time analysing the data than I do and build plans around that, while others won't really use it for much at all and it'll be an expensive novelty.

So with the caveat being that you have to take action on the data it provides, I'm absolutely convinced that a PowerTap on a basic set of wheels would easily lead to more performance improvements for most amateur cyclists than investing €1,000 in a premium wheelset, yet there seems to be a strange situation amongst the cycling community whereby buying a bling wheelset gets nods of approval but buying a power meter is seen as excessive. BikeSnob's derision would be better directed at chumps on top-end wheelsets.

Anyways, I'm kinda taking a bit of a break from the bike at the moment and the new season for the Boards Football Team has just started so I'll focus what little spare time and energy I will have with other committments on being on top form for that, but I plan on using the turbo to keep in good cycling shape over the spring with a few to at least going after some very good stretch goal times in sportives next season or maybe racing. Hopefully by then powermeter's may be a bit cheaper due to new entrants to the market (good luck to the BrimBrothers).

Diarmuid

If you are reluctant to splash out, why not just rent one for a few months.

FrankGrimes

Diarmuid wrote: »

If you are reluctant to splash out, why not just rent one for a few months.

That's exactly what I did. Rental period ends this week so I'm sending it back and as I found it a very useful training aid, that's why I'm planning on buying one now or in the spring.

Thought about asking what price they would charge me to buy the one I rented but after a problem with the original Pro+ they sent me, they replaced it with an Elite which is noticeably heavier and the wheel has a slight buckle in it, so I'll go brand new if at all.