The Citizens Initiative - (Lisbon Treaty related)

Nehaxak · 02-09-2009 4:31am #1

Hi

Firstly let me state this upfront, I have every intention of voting No to Lisbon, I have my (many) reasons but I'm not here for, nor do I want an argument on that in this thread please - I'm just stating it straight up to get it out of the way.

Now my question for those of you who are more capable of explaining the ins and outs of the Lisbon treaty itself - there is a part within which would be enshrined into law if the treaty is passed called (if I'm correct in this terminology...) "The Citizens Initiative".

This citizens initiative will apparently "...give the right to citizens to propose legislation, via a petition with at least one million signatures, obtained from a number of Member States..."

So, lets say Lisbon is passed and all that and becomes law or whatever - if then say some pissed off Irish people for example wanted to propose significant legislation to combat (alledged?) cronyism and corruption in Irish politics and to seek out an EU investigative team to investigate such (again, alledged...) cronyism and corruption in Ireland - and these people managed to get 1 million signatures from accross Europe....

Would indeed therefore it be possible to hold both the EU and Ireland on the text of the Lisbon treaty to that law and as such have that legislation I mention above proposed ?

It might not say the legislation would be acted upon and carried out, just merely give the ability to "propose" it as such, but, would something like I've stated above indeed be possible ?

On a more light-hearted note but still playing on that bit of text within the Lisbon treaty, if I personally put forward legislation and managed to get a million signatures from across Europe to back it up, to propose that a wall be built around Dublin - I presume I would be well within my rights to do so ?

Yes that last bit is outlandish but the opportunity remains for proposals like such to be proposed along with those that are significantly more serious.

Maybe a citizens initiative might crop up relating to public issues surrounding the likes of the Pirate Bay or just copy protection/copyrights and so forth - to lets say propose legislation to outlaw the use of restrictive copy protection mechanisms on computer games, or to enact in law the rights of people to copy music ? No ?

Your thoughts/opinions welcome.

Thanks.

ei.sdraob · 02-09-2009 9:48am

the citizens initiative is yet another democratic tool for citizens to control and spank and get attention the representatives and politicians, but only to a certain extend

one million signatures would mean the issues will get looked at and discussed at EU level

but it doesn't mean any legislation may arise from it

for example what if scientologists collect 1 million signatures? thats 0.5% of population of EU can potentially **** things up for the rest of us

you cant have 0.5% of people making decisions for 95.5% (oh dear why does that sound familiar!) of the population, but if so many people (or more) are bothered about, something then they should be listened to

if a group of people are really intent on legislation passing, they need to do alot more that collect signatures, they would have to lobby the governments in their own country (whose ministers are on EU Council) and get the attention of MEPs across the EU (the EU Parliament) and maybe get the attention of EU commissioners (EU Commisions) but these are only overpaid bureaucrat who do nothing and thanks to Libertas will continue to get cushy money for nothing

now to get back to your question

no the EU has no say in what happens to our government however little we like the current bunch of ****ups, that would not be democratic, we are not in a federation like US or Russia where theres a strong central government (and the EU will never will be like that despite all the conspiracy theorists!)

the only people who can dislodge the current government are opposition parties, the greens and the people in the country who lobby the opposition and the greens to let FF sink

you see once a government is voted in, short of a revolution they would serve out their term unless a serious challenge is mounted by the opposition

right now the greens are preventing FF from sinking :mad: and an election be called, and FG and Lab are not squeezing them hard enough (probably because no one actually wants to be the one to clean up the mess made by FF)

marco_polo · 02-09-2009 9:56am

*Cough* 0.2% Percent

ei.sdraob · 02-09-2009 10:03am

i need coffee this morning as my maths is rusty

@op

yes more than likely the initiative will be used to raise issues such as net neutrality and restrictive copyright laws

my signature would be on both

Euro_Kraut · 02-09-2009 10:52am

I think this is one of the most interesting aspects of Lisbon. Reminds me a bit of the Swiss system.

Will be intereseting to see how this works in practive. Do people need to go around with a clip board getting the signatories? Can it be done on line?

D.Harry · 02-09-2009 10:50pm

The Citizens' Initiative is already being pursued by a group trying to force abortion on Ireland. Their campaign is here. The irony is that the campaign is being supported by two MEPs, who are members of ELDR, the party that Fianna Fail has just joined in Europe. FF is only in the party a wet week and has already labelled the two women 'stupid'.
So, you see, contrary to popular opinion, it's not Coir or any No headbangers who are linking Lisbon to abortion in Ireland.

You couldn't make it up.

oscarBravo · 02-09-2009 10:54pm

D.Harry wrote: »

The Citizens' Initiative is already being pursued by a group trying to force abortion on Ireland.

Bully for them. They won't succeed.

What's your point - that the CI is a bad thing? That Lisbon will bring abortion to Ireland? What?

D.Harry · 02-09-2009 11:02pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Bully for them. They won't succeed.

What's your point - that the CI is a bad thing? That Lisbon will bring abortion to Ireland? What?

My point is one the uses to which the CI is already being put, as per the OP. It was promoted as a great democratic device but backfired on those pushing for a Yes by reinforcing the fears of some voters who rejected Lisbon1.
It's also amusing to watch FF trying to piss on a fire in its own tent.

oscarBravo · 02-09-2009 11:05pm

D.Harry wrote: »

My point is one the uses to which the CI is already being put, as per the OP. It was promoted as a great democratic device but backfired on those pushing for a Yes by reinforcing the fears of some voters who rejected Lisbon1.

A Citizens' Initiative can't be used to get the EU to do something outside the remit of its treaties, and abortion in Ireland is very, very explicitly excluded from the EU's remit.

I know that that's too complicated a concept for a lot of those who get their rosaries in a twist at the very mention of abortion, but I guess that won't stop some people exploiting those fears.

D.Harry · 02-09-2009 11:16pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

A Citizens' Initiative can't be used to get the EU to do something outside the remit of its treaties, and abortion in Ireland is very, very explicitly excluded from the EU's remit.

I know that that's too complicated a concept for a lot of those who get their rosaries in a twist at the very mention of abortion, but I guess that won't stop some people exploiting those fears.

We all know about the limits of the treaties re. abortion
but don't you get it? Those who are trying to force abortion on Ireland using the CI have nothing to do with rosaries. They are the buddies of the main party in our government. They are the ones getting into a twist about abortion. How you manage to deduce from that that Irish catholics are somehow hung up on abortion is beyond me.

oscarBravo · 02-09-2009 11:21pm

D.Harry wrote: »

but don't you get it? Those who are trying to force abortion on Ireland using the CI have nothing to do with rosaries. They are the buddies of the main party in our government. They are the ones getting into a twist about abortion.

I don't care who they are. They're not going to succeed. They may share a political grouping in Europe with FF; who cares?

But I'll be deeply surprised if someone doesn't pounce on this as a reason for voting against Lisbon.

D.Harry · 02-09-2009 11:29pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't care who they are. They're not going to succeed. They may share a political grouping in Europe with FF; who cares?

But I'll be deeply surprised if someone doesn't pounce on this as a reason for voting against Lisbon.

They share a political party with FF, not simply a grouping, as FF would like us to believe. Who cares? - FF certainly does and given the indignation with which it treated the 'stupid' women it must know that the CI has already proved to be a millstone around the neck of Lisbon.

ei.sdraob · 03-09-2009 12:05am

D.Harry wrote: »

They share a political party with FF, not simply a grouping, as FF would like us to believe. Who cares? - FF certainly does and given the indignation with which it treated the 'stupid' women it must know that the CI has already proved to be a millstone around the neck of Lisbon.

which part of

"theres no way of hell can the EU force abortion on Ireland"

do you not understand?

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 12:14am

Nehaxak wrote: »

Hi

Firstly let me state this upfront, I have every intention of voting No to Lisbon, I have my (many) reasons but I'm not here for, nor do I want an argument on that in this thread please - I'm just stating it straight up to get it out of the way.

Now my question for those of you who are more capable of explaining the ins and outs of the Lisbon treaty itself - there is a part within which would be enshrined into law if the treaty is passed called (if I'm correct in this terminology...) "The Citizens Initiative".

This citizens initiative will apparently "...give the right to citizens to propose legislation, via a petition with at least one million signatures, obtained from a number of Member States..."

So, lets say Lisbon is passed and all that and becomes law or whatever - if then say some pissed off Irish people for example wanted to propose significant legislation to combat (alledged?) cronyism and corruption in Irish politics and to seek out an EU investigative team to investigate such (again, alledged...) cronyism and corruption in Ireland - and these people managed to get 1 million signatures from accross Europe....

Would indeed therefore it be possible to hold both the EU and Ireland on the text of the Lisbon treaty to that law and as such have that legislation I mention above proposed ?

It might not say the legislation would be acted upon and carried out, just merely give the ability to "propose" it as such, but, would something like I've stated above indeed be possible ?

The question would be whether such legislation, and investigation, comes within the remit of the EU at all, and that depends on what exactly you are alleging, and the scope of the legislation you sought. If your claim was that the government of Ireland was corrupt and fraudulent with respect to the EU funds it receives and disburses, then you could currently get the European Parliament or the EU anti-fraud office to investigate that. If you were alleging that the Irish government is in serious and persistent breach of the values of the EU, such as democracy, then you could either take that to the European Parliament or the ECJ.

Neither of those actions, however, would result in regulations specifically aimed at Ireland, although they might result in a judgement or decision specific to Ireland. Regulations specifically addressed to the Irish government, and stating something like "yiz are a shower of slippery basterds and we has our eye on you" aren't possible under the EU by any mechanism, because the member states are in control of the EU, not the other way round. The internal affairs of the member states are only relevant to the EU where they affect something over which the EU has been granted competence, and the internal constitutional affairs of the member states are relevant solely insofar as they are a criterion for membership.

Nehaxak wrote: »

On a more light-hearted note but still playing on that bit of text within the Lisbon treaty, if I personally put forward legislation and managed to get a million signatures from across Europe to back it up, to propose that a wall be built around Dublin - I presume I would be well within my rights to do so ?

You'd certainly be well within your rights to do so, but what you'd have to propose would have to be European regulation under an EU competence - something like "that for the better prevention of cross-border trafficking, walls be built around major coastal cities where desired by the government of the relevant member state". If you succeeded in that (which you probably wouldn't, because it would prevent the free movement of people), then the Irish government could probably successfully apply for EU structural funds to build the wall, assuming you persuaded it to so apply.

Nehaxak wrote: »

Yes that last bit is outlandish but the opportunity remains for proposals like such to be proposed along with those that are significantly more serious.

Maybe a citizens initiative might crop up relating to public issues surrounding the likes of the Pirate Bay or just copy protection/copyrights and so forth - to lets say propose legislation to outlaw the use of restrictive copy protection mechanisms on computer games, or to enact in law the rights of people to copy music ? No ?

In fact, the first two examples you give are outlandish, but these are quite reasonable, since those would be within the remit of the EU by virtue of being: (a) intellectual property (118 TFEU); (b) an internal market issue; and (c) possibly classifiable as computer crime (83.1 TFEU) - although we've opted out of the last.

As another poster on this thread is ably demonstrating, you can try for a million signatures on anything you like - but if it's not an EU competence, you're wasting a million people's time, because the EU can do nothing about things that it can't do anything about.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ei.sdraob · 03-09-2009 12:19am

Scofflaw wrote: »

the member states are in control of the EU, not the other way round.

you know that would make for a good YES poster

Scofflaw wrote: »

(c) possibly classifiable as computer crime (83.1 TFEU) - although we've opted out of the last.

anywhere i can get more info on Ireland opting out of that? we opted out of that in Lisbon 1? quite interesting from a personal interest in computers and it security

D.Harry · 03-09-2009 12:21am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

which part of

"theres no way of hell can the EU force abortion on Ireland"

do you not understand?

You know, wishing I had said something which I didn't won't make it so. You'll still look silly.

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 12:27am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you know that would make for a good YES poster

The more so because Lisbon reinforces the control of the member states over the EU in the following 48 articles (consolidated numbering): 4 TEU, 5 TEU, 12 TEU, 22 TEU, 24 TEU, 26 TEU, 31 TEU, 48 TEU, 2 TFEU, 3 TFEU, 4 TFEU, 6 TFEU, 42 TFEU, 48 TFEU, 64 TFEU, 65 TFEU, 68 TFEU, 81 TFEU, 87 TFEU, 88 TFEU, 125 TFEU, 126 TFEU, 173 TFEU, 194 TFEU, 195 TFEU, 196 TFEU, 197 TFEU, 216 TFEU, 218 TFEU, 240 TFEU, 241 TFEU, 245 TFEU, 265 TFEU, 266 TFEU, 275 TFEU, 282 TFEU, 291 TFEU, 300 TFEU, 301 TFEU, 305 TFEU, 308 TFEU, 318 TFEU, 319 TFEU, 328 TFEU, 336 TFEU, 350 TFEU, 351 TFEU, 353 TFEU.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anywhere i can get more info on Ireland opting out of that? we opted out of that in Lisbon 1? quite interesting from a personal interest in computers and it security

We opted out of the whole of Title V of the TFEU, which contains Articles 67-89 TFEU (again, consolidated numbering).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 12:27am

D.Harry wrote: »

You know, wishing I had said something which I didn't won't make it so. You'll still look silly.

And now can you both put down the handbags please?

moderately,
Scofflaw

marco_polo · 03-09-2009 1:26am

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you know that would make for a good YES poster

Yes posters like this one, not so much

Scofflaw wrote: »

The more so because Lisbon reinforces the control of the member states over the EU in the following 48 articles (consolidated numbering): 4 TEU, 5 TEU, 12 TEU, 22 TEU, 24 TEU, 26 TEU, 31 TEU, 48 TEU, 2 TFEU, 3 TFEU, 4 TFEU, 6 TFEU, 42 TFEU, 48 TFEU, 64 TFEU, 65 TFEU, 68 TFEU, 81 TFEU, 87 TFEU, 88 TFEU, 125 TFEU, 126 TFEU, 173 TFEU, 194 TFEU, 195 TFEU, 196 TFEU, 197 TFEU, 216 TFEU, 218 TFEU, 240 TFEU, 241 TFEU, 245 TFEU, 265 TFEU, 266 TFEU, 275 TFEU, 282 TFEU, 291 TFEU, 300 TFEU, 301 TFEU, 305 TFEU, 308 TFEU, 318 TFEU, 319 TFEU, 328 TFEU, 336 TFEU, 350 TFEU, 351 TFEU, 353 TFEU.

We opted out of the whole of Title V of the TFEU, which contains Articles 67-89 TFEU (again, consolidated numbering).
cordially,
Scofflaw

Which protocols cover Irelands opt outs? I found a few around in the Irish specific ones in the Schengen aquis protocols the other day but I must admit I got a little frustrated digging around after a while

, the protocols sections absolutely dwarfs the main text, which I suppose is hardly surprising given there are decades of hard graft in there. I was trying to establish something similar to what you have posted there.
Cheers.

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 1:39am

marco_polo wrote: »

Yes posters like this one, not so much

Very very small print?

marco_polo wrote: »

Which protocols cover Irelands opt outs? I found a few around in the Irish specific ones in the Schengen aquis protocols the other day but I must admit I got a little frustrated digging around after a while , the protocols sections absolutely dwarfs the main text, which I suppose is hardly surprising given there are decades of hard graft in there. I was trying to establish something similar to what you have posted there.
Cheers.

Protocol (No 21) On The Position Of The United Kingdom And Ireland In Respect Of The Area Of Freedom, Security And Justice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

ghost_ie · 03-09-2009 1:43am

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't care who they are. They're not going to succeed. They may share a political grouping in Europe with FF; who cares?

But I'll be deeply surprised if someone doesn't pounce on this as a reason for voting against Lisbon.

Why won't they succeed? If they do and abortion becomes a "right" in the EU, then any "guarantee" we've been given regarding this will have to be disregarded.

BTW I am not a Coir supporter

marco_polo · 03-09-2009 1:49am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Very very small print?

Protocol (No 21) On The Position Of The United Kingdom And Ireland In Respect Of The Area Of Freedom, Security And Justice.

cordially,
Scofflaw

That where I thought and I can see where I went wrong now, I didn't read line one of Article 1 of the Protocol properly.

Hence a frustrating 10 minutes scanning the protocol for article numbers that were no there.

"Subject to Article 3, the United Kingdom and Ireland shall not take part in the adoption by the Council of proposed measures pursuant to Title IV [V] of Part Three of the Treaty"

marco_polo · 03-09-2009 1:56am

ghost_ie wrote: »

Why won't they succeed? If they do and abortion becomes a "right" in the EU, then any "guarantee" we've been given regarding this will have to be disregarded.

BTW I am not a Coir supporter

Because our Constitution explicitly prohibits it, because the existing "PROTOCOL (NO 7) ON ARTICLE 40.3.3 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF IRELAND" explicitly states that the existing EU treaties can do nothing in this area, and the new Guarantees state that nothing in Lisbon does not change anything in relation to this matter.

Since the Constitutions of member states take precedence over all EU treaties the existing Protocols and current Guarantees were never required, not in the past, not now, and not in the future post Lisbon. Sadly the are entirely the product of a long history of Coir and their ilk spreading fear and doubt on this topic.

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 2:08am

ghost_ie wrote: »

Why won't they succeed? If they do and abortion becomes a "right" in the EU, then any "guarantee" we've been given regarding this will have to be disregarded.

BTW I am not a Coir supporter

No, because the EU don't have the power to rule on abortion. No matter how many people sign a petition asking for the EU Commission to issue legislation on the matter, the EU Commission cannot do it, not even if it was signed by every single person in Europe. They simply haven't any power to agree to make a ruling on abortion, because it isn't an EU competence. For the same reason, there's nothing the ECJ can do either, because it only has jurisdiction on things that are EU competences (and not all of those). They can no more do it than they can repeal the law of gravity.

There is no way to make abortion a right in the Treaties (and thus equivalent to our protective protocols), except by adding it into the Charter or the Treaties (presumably the Charter), and even then it would have only equivalent force, and our Protocol, being the more specific, would still mean that it would not be an enforceable right in Ireland.

Further, the only people who could write it into the Charter are the member states, and to do that would require a change of the Charter, which would then need to be ratified. It would also, obviously, require that the government of Ireland agreed to write it in, which is unlikely, and that the government of Malta also agreed, which is pretty much impossible, given that abortion is entirely illegal in Malta.

Nor is it just us and Malta who would be unlikely to ever agree to write abortion into the Charter - Spain, Portugal, Poland, and Cyprus have abortion restrictions not much less stringent than ours (they also allow abortion in case of emergency only, to save the mother's life as per ours, or to preserve the mother's mental and physical health).

Since erecting abortion into a right in the Charter would impact our Constitution, any such ratification would have to include a referendum here - which could, for the first time ever, be honestly fought on the subject of abortion. Even if we obtained an opt-out from such a provision, we would still have to ratify the changed Charter by referendum.

So, because abortion isn't in the Charter or the Treaties under Lisbon, it cannot be added after the event except with a new Charter and a new Treaty, which will need to explicitly include the right to abortion. Adding a right to the Charter after we've ratified it would nullify our ratification, because the Charter would no longer be the one we ratified.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Torakx · 03-09-2009 2:28am

Nehaxak wrote: »

Hi

Firstly let me state this upfront, I have every intention of voting No to Lisbon, I have my (many) reasons but I'm not here for, nor do I want an argument on that in this thread please - I'm just stating it straight up to get it out of the way.

Now my question for those of you who are more capable of explaining the ins and outs of the Lisbon treaty itself - there is a part within which would be enshrined into law if the treaty is passed called (if I'm correct in this terminology...) "The Citizens Initiative".

This citizens initiative will apparently "...give the right to citizens to propose legislation, via a petition with at least one million signatures, obtained from a number of Member States..."

So, lets say Lisbon is passed and all that and becomes law or whatever - if then say some pissed off Irish people for example wanted to propose significant legislation to combat (alledged?) cronyism and corruption in Irish politics and to seek out an EU investigative team to investigate such (again, alledged...) cronyism and corruption in Ireland - and these people managed to get 1 million signatures from accross Europe....

Would indeed therefore it be possible to hold both the EU and Ireland on the text of the Lisbon treaty to that law and as such have that legislation I mention above proposed ?

It might not say the legislation would be acted upon and carried out, just merely give the ability to "propose" it as such, but, would something like I've stated above indeed be possible ?

On a more light-hearted note but still playing on that bit of text within the Lisbon treaty, if I personally put forward legislation and managed to get a million signatures from across Europe to back it up, to propose that a wall be built around Dublin - I presume I would be well within my rights to do so ?

Yes that last bit is outlandish but the opportunity remains for proposals like such to be proposed along with those that are significantly more serious.

Maybe a citizens initiative might crop up relating to public issues surrounding the likes of the Pirate Bay or just copy protection/copyrights and so forth - to lets say propose legislation to outlaw the use of restrictive copy protection mechanisms on computer games, or to enact in law the rights of people to copy music ? No ?

Your thoughts/opinions welcome.

Thanks.

im by no means an expert on the treaty itself.
but if i may throw a thought out there which maybe you hinted at in your post.
i feel that it sounds quite possible what your saying. indded people could sign a petition to make a proposal to make for example piratebay legal.
but most likely the companies with all the money would have enough influence to make sure it never passes.

the flip side being another proposal with 1mil signatures could pop up asking to ban all piracy from the net and easily get passed by the big companies who have more influence than mere citizens.

infact is it possible(please note i am talking hypothetically)using said treaty quote above for some agency or whatever to attain 1mil signatures through whatever means possible to for example turn ireland into a storage island for fuel and nuclear plants for europe? or pretty much anything that does not effect directly our constitution or that of another member state should it be effected.
things like this worry me that there is the potential to change things down the road to at least the original treaty if not worse.or that was the feeling i got overall while reading the treaty.

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 2:37am

Torakx wrote: »

im by no means an expert on the treaty itself.
but if i may throw a thought out there which maybe you hinted at in your post.
i feel that it sounds quite possible what your saying. indded people could sign a petition to make a proposal to make for example piratebay legal.
but most likely the companies with all the money would have enough influence to make sure it never passes.

the flip side being another proposal with 1mil signatures could pop up asking to ban all piracy from the net and easily get passed by the big companies who have more influence than mere citizens.

infact is it possible(please note i am talking hypothetically)using said treaty quote above for some agency or whatever to attain 1mil signatures through whatever means possible to for example turn ireland into a storage island for fuel and nuclear plants for europe? or pretty much anything that does not effect directly our constitution or that of another member state should it be effected.
things like this worry me that there is the potential to change things down the road to at least the original treaty if not worse.or that was the feeling i got overall while reading the treaty.

No, none of the above are possible. A citizens' initiative can only result in legislation if the EU has the power to make that legislation anyway. An initiative asking for something the EU cannot do is a waste of a million signatures, apart from any PR value it may have.

Nor can the EU be given any new competences without a new treaty, and another referendum.

wearily,
Scofflaw

Torakx · 03-09-2009 2:51am

well i have seen how legislation works in other places like the united states.
it is by no means exaclty the same as the eu or post lisbon but i think it shows a supposedly ok system can later be rife with corruption.
and the use of advertising TV radio is a very very powerful tool that can easily be utilized for changing said legislation down the line.
i understand as it is right now alot of those things arent possible and also it was an example since i didnt have anything better off the top of my head.
but can a more educated person than me on lisbon not see it even possible down the line a situation like that..maybe not so extreme or just gradual is enterily possible?

kinda like the old problem,reaction,solution technique.
but using the legislation the original poster spoke about....down the line.

ei.sdraob · 03-09-2009 9:21am

Torakx wrote: »

well i have seen how legislation works in other places like the united states.

the EU is not United States or politically anything close to it

only similarities end a the character U in both names

Scofflaw · 03-09-2009 1:38pm

Torakx wrote: »

well i have seen how legislation works in other places like the united states.
it is by no means exaclty the same as the eu or post lisbon but i think it shows a supposedly ok system can later be rife with corruption.
and the use of advertising TV radio is a very very powerful tool that can easily be utilized for changing said legislation down the line.
i understand as it is right now alot of those things arent possible and also it was an example since i didnt have anything better off the top of my head.
but can a more educated person than me on lisbon not see it even possible down the line a situation like that..maybe not so extreme or just gradual is enterily possible?

kinda like the old problem,reaction,solution technique.
but using the legislation the original poster spoke about....down the line.

There's two things in there - the legislation the EU produces, and the things the EU can produce legislation on. The former is susceptible to all the stuff you're talking about - lobbyists, corporate interests, etc. The latter, however, is tied down by the treaties, and can't be changed by any amount of lobbying.

In the case of something like abortion, the EU can't legislate, because it's never been given the power to make legislation on abortion. All the other stuff is therefore irrelevant, because only a new treaty could make abortion an EU competence.

cordially,
Scofflaw

The Citizens Initiative - (Lisbon Treaty related)

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