An open letter to Mr. Dermot Ahern regarding the new "samurai sword" legislation

Kila

An open letter to Mr. Dermot Ahern, Minister for Justice.

I write to once again voice my strong objection to the new legislation introduced today, banning the sale, possession, import, and purchase of samurai swords.

I am an active member of the martial arts community in Ireland. While the differences in the many arts can be large, one thing that is characteristic of most is the people who take part; they are, in large part, not people who want to hurt other people, but people who have had a bad experience and want to defend themselves, people who are interested in keeping fit, or people who are interested in the study of the art itself. In short, generally nice people.

It is these people are the people who will be most affected by this new legislation. The people who have spent hundreds, or even thousands, of euro purchasing training equipment to better enable them to learn. The people who have dedicated years, lifetimes, to the study of their chosen art. The people who follow the law, who only use the swords in training, who don't carry knives and guns, who don't start fights, and who don't attack people with swords.

Many martial arts involve the use of swords, for a number of reasons. The movements and focus involved in the correct use of a sword can improve many other aspects of training when mastered. There are also arts which study sword movement and use itself, training techniques that are centuries old. These arts, in particular, do not make light of the use of a sword, but instead treat it (and other practitioners) with respect. In addition, many martial artists are gifted with swords by friends and family, who would tend to associate ownership of such an item with martial training, and so come into possession of the weapon by chance. As of today, all of these people are breaking the law. Even by possessing training equipment that has only been used in the dojo, gifts from family and friends that have never left the house, these people are now breaking the law.

The people responsible for knife crime have not been dissuaded simply on the basis of existing law, and I find it hard to accept that they will now be dissuaded on the basis of this law. The people who break the law and involve themselves in knife crime are people who will continue to break the law, regardless of whether samurai swords are illegal or not. They will continue to break the law by carrying and using knives and guns, and this reactionary, heavy-handed legislation will do nothing to prevent it. It will not even prevent the extremely infrequent attacks using samurai swords that this legislation is in reaction too, as it is clear that anyone who would choose to walk the streets carrying a sword, and then attack someone with it, will not be perturbed by a law change either.

As a final example of the reactionary and foolish nature of this law, I would like to point out that it is still permitted to possess, sell, import, and buy swords that originate in any other country (for example, traditional Chinese weaponry). It is a lucky society we live in that the most dangerous of all weapons, the deadly samurai sword, is now put to bed. Now our criminals will have to arm themselves with Chinese straight swords instead, and luckily, as they do not originate in Japan, we are all perfectly safe.

A most grateful martial student,

Jennifer Keane

Kila

An RTE article on same: http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0901/justice.html also identical article at http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0901/samurai.html just with different URL and picture...

I also note, with a smile, that the researchers have really outdone themselves, and made sure that the article was accompanied by a picture which really illustrates the point. Yes, that's right. A Chinese broadsword (if I'm not mistaken).

This fills me with confidence that they will be able to correctly identify "samurai" swords, which are, as we all know, the only dangerous kind of sword to begin with...

pma-ire

has someone set up an online petition for people to sign on this issue?

i would'int have a clue how to set one up. but i'm sure someone else does??

Kila

I don't know of a petition online.

Obviously RTE are reading this, as they've now changed their website picture to an actual "samurai" sword... bit sneaky, though...


Edit: good thing facebook grabbed the page image before they changed it (see attachment)

pma-ire

Kila wrote: »

I don't know of a petition online.

Obviously RTE are reading this, as they've now changed their website picture to an actual "samurai" sword... bit sneaky, though...


Edit: good thing facebook grabbed the page image before they changed it (see attachment)

but i wonder if you could get off with carrying one of these swords if you actually knew what they were called

"no garda, this is not a samuari sword, it's actually a katana!"

Quillo

Political window dressing, nothing more.

It's a bit late if the ban is already in effect.

How exactly was a samurai sword defined in the legislation?

Deisekickboxing

yes the country is in the grip of recession,gun crime and swine flu

governments ans:

Ban swords of which most are only ornamental ones anyway

Kila

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a bit late if the ban is already in effect.

Well, the reason I say "again" in my letter is because it isn't the first time I've written to him to express my opposition to the the bill. It's not my first time putting pen to paper about it in general either.

How exactly was a samurai sword defined in the legislation?

I haven't been able to find the legislation in the statute books yet. Sometimes there is a delay with it being available online (I've noticed in the past). I'll be checking regularly until it is though.

Quillo

Curious line in the Irish Times on this today stating:

"In a bid to cater for collectors, those made before 1954 or at another time by traditional hand-made methods will be exempt."

So it appears we are specifically banning "samurai swords" (would like to see their definition of that) made after 1954 by methods other than traditional (again, would like to see a definition). :rolleyes:

YamaMotoYama

They should have just licensed this...

But I have to say - I am in agreement with a crackdown on idiots carrying blades.

Kila

Quillo wrote: »

Curious line in the Irish Times on this today stating:

"In a bid to cater for collectors, those made before 1954 or at another time by traditional hand-made methods will be exempt."

So it appears we are specifically banning "samurai swords" (would like to see their definition of that) made after 1954 by methods other than traditional (again, would like to see a definition). :rolleyes:

As they say, the devil is in the detail. I'm eagerly awaiting precise wording myself, because I'm also very interested in how they define these things (particularly considering how poor general understanding on swords appears to be).

pma-ire

i guess people will just have to make do with a set of kitchen blades bought at the local shoppee to slice open their neighbours now :cool:

Quillo

YamaMotoYama wrote: »

They should have just licensed this...

But I have to say - I am in agreement with a crackdown on idiots carrying blades.

Enforcing the existing legislation would do this.

We already had what was effectively a complete ban on anyone carrying anything that a Garda felt was to be used as a weapon.

suey71

This new law is totally mad.

I've just read a 4 page article in the Castleknock Gazette on Airsoft, and numerous adds in the article advertising replica handguns, Uzi's, M16's etc.
One of these ads is actually a Full colour full page ad. actually showing the guns that are for sale.

Whats stopping some scummer from pulling one of these guns on someone? Not only do they look like the real deal but they also shoot metal balls, at speeds of up to 328 feet per second.

Nothing against Airsoft. I'm sure none of its participants would even consider using these guns to harm or intimidate someone, the same goes for Martial Artists and Samarai Swords.

Scramble

I haven't seen the legislation yet either, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

If it is based on what was enacted in the UK, and it seems to be, then it is likely quite limited in scope.

lostexpectation

Scramble wrote: »

I haven't seen the legislation yet either, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

wheres the legislation?

YamaMotoYama

I think this is a bit of knee jerky alright...

But you have to admit ... the knackers are using them in fights (with eachother and the Gardai) and don't forget that lad that had his hand cut off with one in the pub in Finglas.

They are fairly intimidating weapons - when you have a baton to defend yourself!

(Ah.. I miss the old days when lads just duked it out!)

I'd also say that the sale of the swords to **non** MA people probably outstrips the folks that actually do use them for MA (its the same as baseball bats sales in Ireland...)

Nothingcompares

I'm personally in two minds about this. On the one hand, I don't really care that people that like to play with Samurai Swords (really long pieces of metal that maybe a bit pointy) can no longer do so. On the other, I don't think very many people who own a samurai sword have ever used it illegally/criminally.

Why did I use the word play?

I think it's important to point out that the use of weapons in martial arts is purely for fun, entertainment, coolness. You can add sport to the list of reasons when discussing Kendo. I don't think any martial art of any merit will actually greatly suffer from the limitation of use of imitation swords to chop the air and play dress up. I would equate training in Samurai sword, nunchuc, throwing stars, tonfa etc. up there with jugging and poi.

Having said that if people want to play with swords/juggle they can do so as long as common sense is applied.

I also think the legislation is rather pointless and kneejerk. If I had to choose between getting attacked by a guy with a 50 euro "ornamental, authentic,genuine, 'made in china' okinawain, samurai sword" from the martial arts shop or a guy with an Ax or Hurl or kitchen knife I'd go for the sword guy.

smacl

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think it's important to point out that the use of weapons in martial arts is purely for fun, entertainment, coolness. You can add sport to the list of reasons....

A bit inflammatory maybe? You could just as well take out the "the use of weapons in" and get

I think it's important to point out that martial arts is purely for fun, entertainment, coolness. (And sports of course).

I'd also throw in health, fitness, agility, self esteem and a study of something that interests you. If you're suggesting that MA people who practice some weapons as part of their training are in some way more self dellusional or less serious about what they do than other martial artists, I wouldn't agree. (Though I loved that guy juggling at the last dog brothers meet, truly awesome display )

Fair point about the axe, though I'd guess there's more serious injuries caused by concealed screw drivers, stanley knives and glass bottles. Ban the bottle, that's what I say!

Scramble

I've been digging around and what seems to have come into force as of today is the following ammendment-

"FIREARMS AND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS ACT 1990" (SI 338 2009 Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 (Offensive Weapons) (Amendment) Order) has come into effect. With this order the following has been added to the list off weapons:
"the sword sometimes known as samurai or katana, other than such a sword—
(i) made before 1954, or
(ii) made at any other time according to traditional methods of making swords by hand.”.

The Offensive Weapons order is a list of things like knuckle-dusters, machete, daggers and whatnot that are forbidden under Section 12 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons act from being manafactured, imported, sold, lent or otherwise given away.

I could be off on this, but that seems to be the extent of the legislation. If the above is correct then Ireland has actually not duplicated the English legislation, because we've streamlined it somewhat.

This is far from a complete 'ban' in the sense that as far as I can see if you already own an item which would fall under the new definition then you may still possess it in your home. It will not be possible to sell it at this point, or have it in a public place however.

What is also notable is that aside from pre-1954 swords being not covered the fact that any sword which is handmade or handfinished is allowed means that people will still be able to purchase bottom-end katana made in China, something like a Paul Chen Katana which costs a few hundred euro.

And obviously an sword pattern which is not a katana will not be affected. Western style swords, Chinese Dao, Fillipino swords etc.

What this ban will cover is the sort of cheap 'Highlander' imitation stainless steel wallhangers which have been sold for fifty or sixty euro online, and things of that nature.

If the above is correct then it won't stop any iaidoka or people involved in sword arts here from buying quality swords for cutting practice. Having it with them in a public place on the way to training is also not much more fraught than before, really, I would think it's a good idea to have some membership card for your martial arts club with you- and not to dither around, get to training and then back again without much hanging around. :pac:

pearsquasher

I think it's important to point out that the use of weapons in martial arts is purely for fun, entertainment, coolness. You can add sport to the list of reasons when discussing Kendo.

Nothingcompares.. what sword or indeed other weapons art have you studied in depth to come up with this poorly educated reasoning? Obviously not any meaningful kenjutsu dicipline with which samurai swords are most associated with.

On the sword ban....nothings changed for me. The few times a year that I practice cutting with a live blade - under proper instruction - I always take out the sword from its secure holding place, unwrap and unsheath it, clean it, resheath it, wrap it again securely, bring it to the dojo in a responsible way (in a car and not displayed for all to see).. with my dojo membership card.. and practice what's required of me by my teacher in a highly controlled and safe environment with other senior students. Then it goes home and gets put away again very carefully after a proper cleaning.

For non-live blade practice we use bokken, padded bamboo swords and sometimes - maybe 20% of the time - dulled metal blades. I'm not sure where the law stands on these but I'm not losing any sleep over it because I think I've reached the stage of being a "responsible adult" studying an art that takes all weapons practice VERY VERY seriously with handling guidelines firmly in place.

Boston

suey71 wrote: »

This new law is totally mad.

I've just read a 4 page article in the Castleknock Gazette on Airsoft, and numerous adds in the article advertising replica handguns, Uzi's, M16's etc.
One of these ads is actually a Full colour full page ad. actually showing the guns that are for sale.

Whats stopping some scummer from pulling one of these guns on someone? Not only do they look like the real deal but they also shoot metal balls, at speeds of up to 328 feet per second.

Nothing against Airsoft. I'm sure none of its participants would even consider using these guns to harm or intimidate someone, the same goes for Martial Artists and Samarai Swords.

Best not to spout uninformed opinions about other sports. Airsoft was made legal approximately 4 years ago on the recommendation of gardai. An airsoft gun cannot cause serious physical harm unless you use it to beat someone. They do not fire metal BBs, that is a pellet gun, which is not legal without a license. They are restricted to below 1 joule of force. That approximately 1 16th of the power behind a paintball gun. There is nothing stopping you using a replica firearm to committee a crime however legally it treated the same as if you use a real one. Dicommisioned firearms can be sold by anyone to anyone in ireland and look far more real then airsoft guns.

YamaMotoYama

I think its fair to say that a samurai sword in the hands of any idiot is a lot more dangerous/damaging than a airsoft pellet gun.

Also - I know its nice to train with the real thing etc... but is this ban and people being made to use wooden swords (over the real thing) really going to impact training that much?

I think the government is having a knee jerk reaction here - but also the small minority that **actually** train with proper samurai swords...

Dave Joyce

Just got back today from holidays and fair play Boston, you beat me to it. Just to add to it, Suey71, I've got into Airsoft and I can tell you that the guys involved in the sport have worked damn hard to get it to its current status, so crappy ill-informed statements like that don't help at all.

As for the usual shiitstirring crap from Nothingcomperes......:rolleyes: Your attempt at been cool with your informed comments really begger belief. Are you the same person who gets his knickers in a twist when BJJ is referred to as gay guys in pyjamas???!!!

By the way, as a matter of interest, how come you are always lecturing us "mere mortals" in this section about the "reality" of combat sports, and yet those of us who BY CHOICE train with weapons should PLAY practise......

Having said that if people want to play with swords/juggle they can do so as long as common sense is applied.

Wow, thanks for your approval:rolleyes:

smacl

YamaMotoYama wrote: »

I know its nice to train with the real thing etc... but is this ban and people being made to use wooden swords (over the real thing) really going to impact training that much?

To an extent, yes. The metal dao (chinese broadsword) that I use for forms is way different to the wooden one, both in terms of overall weight, and weight distribution. The metal weapon is good for conditioning due to its weight, and is nicer but more difficult to handle than the same shaped wooden weapon. From a safety perspective, I'd tend to use the wooden weapon for techniques. Even with a dull edge it could do some pretty serious damage.

YamaMotoYama

smacl wrote: »

To an extent, yes. The metal dao (chinese broadsword) that I use for forms is way different to the wooden one, both in terms of overall weight, and weight distribution. The metal weapon is good for conditioning due to its weight, and is nicer but more difficult to handle than the same shaped wooden weapon. From a safety perspective, I'd tend to use the wooden weapon for techniques. Even with a dull edge it could do some pretty serious damage.

Fair point...

Nothingcompares

Dave Joyce wrote: »

As for the usual shiitstirring crap from Nothingcomperes......:rolleyes: Your attempt at been cool with your informed comments really begger belief. Are you the same person who gets his knickers in a twist when BJJ is referred to as gay guys in pyjamas???!!!

:

no i'm not.

Roper

Seems to me like it's a waste of some more taxpayers money.

Firstly, does anyone really think that anyone who intends on using a samurai sword is going to register one?

Secondly, if I want to do bodily harm to someone, I will do it. We've all seen the tragic case of a couple of weeks ago, perpetrated with a Dunnes Stores knife block.

If gangs of kids were roaming the streets with swords I would understand this, but they're not.

Boston

It strikes me that the replicas aren't the problem, but rather the real thing.

Scramble

is this ban and people being made to use wooden swords (over the real thing) really going to impact training that much?

This legislation won't actually mean that, as far as I can see.

People involved in japanese sword arts weren't ordinarily buying the cheap stainless steel jobs which are banned by this new amendment. Those sorts of swords have proven unsafe even to swing let alone cut a target with in the past- they tend to shatter at importune moments.

The iaido and kenjutsu guys I know tend to spend a few hundred euro and buy swords from reputable companies like Hanwei, Dynasty Forge, Bugei trading etc. Swords from these guys shouldn't fall under the ban in that I'm led to believe they are made according to traditional methods.

Overall, I agree with that this amendment regarding swords is an afterthought. The changes in penalty for possession of an offensive weapon in public (increase from 1 to 5 years maximum) and in the legislation pertaining to searches are more significant.

westcoastshuri

I have spoken to the dept of Justice who were very willing to discuss this .

According to them provisions have been made for Collectors and Martial artists who use the Katana as part of their system .

I have asked for more clarification on this and will post it when I receive it .

Darren

Quillo

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/teens-bailed-over-baseball-bat-attack-424994.html

I suppose they'll ban baseball bats now.... only a minority sport here, no real need for them.

Might as well include pick-axe handles too, after all, only a few people actually use pick-axes these days....sure isn't all mini-diggers and Kangos now.

westcoastshuri

Here is the response I received from the dept of Justice :

The important part for collectors and martial artists is in the exceptions
- the part that says - 'other than'. So, samurai swords or katana are added to the list of offensive weapons other than those which were manufactured before 1954 (historical swords pre Japanese sword maker
licensing) or those handmade in the traditional way including modern katana.

The advice we received back from the martial arts associations we consulted was that their members would have an interest in genuine crafted katana for practice, demonstrations and collection but not in the poor quality mass produced blades. Exempting handmade swords means that they are not classed as offensive weapons and can still be imported, sold, collected etc.

Obviously, the usual laws on having a blade or sharply pointed object in a public place apply to all swords and knives

Kila

Just a quick update - I received a reply from Dept. of Justice. I'll copy it out and post it up here later tonight, if I can.

Magoolio

Hey
Does anyone know where I might still be able to pick up one of these swords.? I have to get a present for a brother and he has always wanted an ornamental sword. Are there any Irish shops still selling versions? Please help
M