Hendo: good guy or sumcbag?

supremenovice

Bit late with this one, but I was just looking back at UFC 100 and I thought I had to share my thoughts on this and find out the general mood.

After seeing Dan 'the man' Henderson punch Bisping in the head while clearly KOd, I thought what a pathetic loser he was, especially since he admitted afterwards that he knew Bisping was out.
Absolutely disgraceful.Thought he was a professional sportsman that any young up and comer could look up to before the fight but he really dropped down my list after that.
Bisping did nothing to deserve that. That viscous right could have seriously done damage.
Should he be punished? This behaviour should not be condoned by UFC so I think a fine is appropriate at the very least (Im assuming he has got away with it).
Thoughts?

cardio,shoot me

omfg ,not this sh1te again, its well and truly over now anyway. He hit him once when he was down, his job is to keep going until the ref stops it. It didnt help that bisping was a twat

roo1981

Scumbags a bit harsh. Being honest the smacks Rampage hit Wandy when he was out were far worse imo. Compared to some of the beatdowns Cage Rage and Pride used to allow it was pattycakes.

Also, well, Bisping was acting like an arse the whole way through the TUF series, and seeing as it is a fight and all that, if you act like an arse, people will take liberties they probably might not normally take. And seeing as the ref hadnt stopped the fight, it technically wasnt even taking liberties...more like paying Bisping his dues.

Perfect fit

Bisping had no one to blame but himself, if he had of stopped circling to his left like he was told and kept his big mouth shut he wouldn't have had to eat forearm! its a fight at the end of the day and there told don't stop till the ref stops it, majority of fighters would have done the exact same

consultech

************UFC 102 SPOILER BELOW**********
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Yeah I remember this being done to death b4 too...

Juxtapose for a moment Hendog's actions with those of Nate Marquardt after he knocked Damien Maia TFO the other night then pulled-out of the ground and pound (I have the right knockout, don't I? - Hard to remember given the ridiculous fights on Sat!). That makes Dan look like a petulant Ed Herman.

Tim_Murphy

:rolleyes:

Juxtapose for a moment Hendog's actions with those of Nate Marquardt after he knocked Damien Maia TFO the other night then pulled-out of the ground and pound

Quiet similar to Hendersons action after he KO'd Renzo Gracie.

rovert

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

omfg ,not this sh1te again, its well and truly over now anyway.

So anyway lets talk about Brock again..... :pac:

cardio,shoot me

yea, hes a knob /thread

Na I wouldn't look at him as a scumbag at all. The guy had been wound up by Bisping in the Ultimate Fighter & months before the fight so you can only imagine how much anger had been built up!

As Hendo said after, that will finally shut Bisping up. Lets hope so

smoochie06

I dont think he is a scumbag but i didnt agree with what he done. He knew he was out before he hit him. But then Bisping did talk a lot of crap on TUF so maybe now he will think twice about doing it again.

Fozzy

So a lot of you believe that if a fighter acts the idiot a bit then he deserves to take unnecessary and possibly extremely damaging punishment?

mark.leonard

Fozzy wrote: »

So a lot of you believe that if a fighter acts the idiot a bit then he deserves to take unnecessary and possibly extremely damaging punishment?

I believe that if you act like a testicle, people struggle to generate pity for you in the fraction of a second you have to decide whether to hit a guy after he has gone down.

If he was a nicer guy, maybe Hendo wouldn't have hit him that last time.

Maybe there's a lesson there for all of us.

Charlie3dan

I'm suprised that people think it's ok because Bisping was talking crap before the fight. For me, hendo came out looking a bigger asshole for hitting after his opponent was out AND bragging about it after the fight.

I wouldn't go as far as to say a scumbag, I don't think it's necessarily wrong (to hit after the guy's out) and I think if I was locked in a cage with someone I hated I could easily get carried away too.

But the guys that show control and can see when an opponent has had enough deserve much more respect IMO. They're also the ones we want representing MMA.

Tim_Murphy

Henderson is a legend of the sport, end of story. There's not many out there that I can think of who would be better representatives.

Hendo Vs Renzo for the newbies:

dunkamania

I dont know if Hendo knew that he was hitting an unconscious Bisping, but, I think people are missing the point.

Joe Rogan asked a stupid question, and Hendo gave a stupid answer, in the heat of the moment. Despite what he said, its not clear whether or not Hendo knew he was hitting an unconscious opponent. At the end of the day, Hendo stopped, once the ref stepped in. Others have been slow to obey ref instructions, and got far less criticism.

dlofnep

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Quiet similar to Hendersons action after he KO'd Renzo Gracie.

yup exactly - he actually felt sorry for hitting renzo so hard lol..

Jason Mc

Good guy for sure.

Bisping was going around bullying ppl throwing water on guys who looked up to him. Would he have done that to Dana - don't fecking think so.

Dan is a quiet unassuming guy and to be honest I enjoyed seeing Bisping getting sparked.

Funny thing is, up until the ultimate fighter I really liked him, he went done in my estimation badly.

Charlie3dan

Yea hendo looked classy against renzo and I would normally think of him as a good representative of MMA but no question his treatment of Bisping has tarnished that slightly for me.

As we're bringing up old fights check out 29 secs of this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q812qIIlM70
unfortunately the vid turns into an ad just before the crucial moment but most will have seen this before.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dunkamania wrote: »

I dont know if Hendo knew that he was hitting an unconscious Bisping.

You've never KO'd someone before have you?.

'Scumbag' isn't a word I'd use to describe him at all, but his actions were very unsportsmanlike (IMO) and lost him respect in the eye's of fighters and fight fans alike.

Of course to the people who watch UFC/MMA for the blood & gore, this type of behaviour satisfies that need, so to those people he done the right thing.

Reading most of the stuff wrote since the KO it boils down to either liking or disliking Bisping, a lot of people dislike him because of his carry on on TUF - but is that reason enough to justify what Hendo did?.. Tbh, I think thats up to the individual.

If it happens to Hendo in a future fight the first words from my lips will be "KARMA".

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To be fair, he hit him again BEFORE the ref stepped in.

Rogan shouldn't have asked the Q. Hendo shouldn't have answered. They need to stay away from that. With that said, the whole thing happened in about half a second, and anyone who's competed at any kind of level knows that adrenaline makes us act on instinct rather than logic.

I for one don't think this makes Hendo a sumcbag. It is an unfortnate incident, and just because Bisping made a t1t of himself on TUF doesn't warrant extra punishment but these things are very easy to over analyse in the still of hindsight with slow motion replays. In reality that decision (or instinctive fight finisher - rememer most fighters try to "pound out" uys after they drop them - most don't stop to check if they're already out, they just do it) was made in less than I'd say half a second.

Kent Brockman

This is the reply I posted when this was first brought up, and having seen it a few times now my opinion hasn't changed:D

""I think Hendo was fighting on instinct and being ruthless in the finish (like most fighters in fairness when they think the finish is there). Sure he knew he had downed his opponent and following up to make sure of the finish. It was one extra punch FFS, just after his opponent had hit the canvas. We have seen many times where a guy has pounded the sh1t out of an obviously unconsious opponent (Rashad, rampage to name the 1st 2 that come to mind)

I think in hind-sight that Hendo was definitely making sure of the KO but is saying what he thinks the fans want to hear ie that he gave him one for extra measure to shut him up, no harm done IMO no harm done to his rep.""

consultech

With all the above posts respectfully considered...

The issue still seems to be boiling down to whether Bisping "deserved it" or not - which is obviously ridiculous. It doesn't matter how big a cock you are; if something is over the line of sportsman-like behaviour, it's over the line.

I also don't think there's much validity in the point which suggests that Bisping could take it - or it not being to dissimilar to someone getting pounded while unconscious b4 the ref steps in. Hendo admitted to making a decision to do it, knowing Bisping was out. Those facts are available to everyone in the post-fight interview.

As an aside ********** UFC 102 SPOILER **********

Did anyone check out the rubbish refereeing in the Rosholt/Leben fight for the finish?

Wacker

consultech wrote: »

As an aside ********** UFC 102 SPOILER **********

Did anyone check out the rubbish refereeing in the Rosholt/Leben fight for the finish?

I've been critical of Yves Lavigne (sp?) in the past, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Leben tapped twice, and then started moving his hips, like he was trying to get out of the hold. One is supposed to tap three times, so there is no ambiguity. Yves hesitated when Leben started to move; I think any ref would have done the same.

dunkamania

Leben looked like maybe he was hitting him, and then maybe he was trying to tap before he went out. In the locker room pre-fight, both fighters were told by Yves that they had to make it clear that they were tapping. While it may have looked bad, he made the right call in this case, he has had some terrible calls before though

Karmafaerie

Hendo wrote:

"When you're in the heat of the moment, the ref hadn't stopped me yet, who knows what's going to happen, if he's going to recover. I really only hit him twice - once on my feet, once on the ground. I didn't keep going. I didn't go after him after the ref tried to stop me, it was nothing like that. It was a reaction of mine to keep going until I was stopped, and you know, it did feel good though."

Bisping wrote:

I've noticed there's been a few comments he shouldn't have thrown that second punch. Fair play to the guy. He had his job to do and you've got to carry on 'til the ref pulls you off. Full respect to Dan Henderson, he did the job and he did it well. So well done.

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pablohoney87

Wacker wrote: »

I've been critical of Yves Lavigne (sp?) in the past, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Leben tapped twice, and then started moving his hips, like he was trying to get out of the hold. One is supposed to tap three times, so there is no ambiguity. Yves hesitated when Leben started to move; I think any ref would have done the same.

Thats an old rule. The referee is supposed to step in if he sees what he judges to be any attempt to tap. Like when amir sadollah won tuf.

consultech

Wacker wrote: »

I've been critical of Yves Lavigne (sp?) in the past, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. Leben tapped twice, and then started moving his hips, like he was trying to get out of the hold. One is supposed to tap three times, so there is no ambiguity. Yves hesitated when Leben started to move; I think any ref would have done the same.

What if there is no tap, and a fighter is out and convulsing (which happened to be the case with Leben afterwards) though? It's up to Lavigne to use his experience in there; like would anyone who has watched MMA for 5+ minutes think Leben was getting out of that? - Let alone someone with Lavigne's experience. I'm probably making more of it than is warranted, but Rogan didn't like it at all either, and he's usually well on-point.

Also Hendo/Bisping's quotes above are moot. Hendo said what he truly felt after the fight, not what his PR guy contributed hours later, as above. Also, it doesn't matter what Bisping says about the incident, it's not up to him to decide what's fair and what's not, regardless of whether it was him getting smashed or not.

Fozzy

I haven't noticed too much talk of whether or not Thiago Silva is a scumbag for giving Jardine the finger while he was unconscious

I don't know how anyone can argue that if Henderson was speaking the truth after the fight, that he wanted to further hurt an unconscious opponent, that he's not a scumbag. The only line of defence for him is if he wasn't telling the truth, and I think that the reality is somewhere in between. He wasn't intending to hit Bisping while he was out, but he didn't feel too bad about it once it was done. A semi-scumbag :pac:

Karmafaerie

consultech wrote: »

Also Hendo/Bisping's quotes above are moot. Hendo said what he truly felt after the fight, not what his PR guy contributed hours later, as above. Also, it doesn't matter what Bisping says about the incident, it's not up to him to decide what's fair and what's not, regardless of whether it was him getting smashed or not.

What are you on about?!

When you're in the middle of fight, and have half of a second to react, there is nothing going through your mind.

Nothing.

He hit Bisping, and Bisping went down.
How often have fighters been badly, badly, rocked, and recovered.
It usually happens at least once a ppv if not more.
You have to make sure of the fight, or it can cost you big time.

I didn't see Hendo knock out Bisping, stop, go down and check his pulse, hold up a few fingers for him, and then throw the second.
Hendo hit the right, and Bisping went down, he had already thrown the second before the ref moved.
Before Bisping had come to rest.
Before he knew Bisping was out.
He then got up and walked away.

If you listened to Hendos post fight interview, you'll see he says that he didn't remember what happened before the first right.
As in he didn't know how he had set up the knock out.

So you think that while he can't remember what happened just before the KO, he knew what was happening and made a reasoned decision on the medical state of another man, and decided to hit a man while he was out, in the fraction of a second between one punch and the second?!!!!!!


Hendo came out and made a stupid joke about shutting Bisping up.
He has said that countless times.
Hendo did exactly what every fighter does.
He tries to finish the fight.

Bisping, countless MMA fighters, commentators, Hendo, refferees, and officials have all said there is nothing wrong with what Hendo did.

The English media, and the usuals over on Sherdog have made a complete mountain out of a molehill.

In fairness to Bisping, a fighter who's personality I really don't like, he's come out of all this very well, by saying the exact truth.

He made no excuses.
He didn't do a BJ and cry.
He said the better fighter won, and that's that.



Simples.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Fozzy wrote: »

I haven't noticed too much talk of whether or not Thiago Silva is a scumbag for giving Jardine the finger while he was unconscious

I don't know how anyone can argue that if Henderson was speaking the truth after the fight, that he wanted to further hurt an unconscious opponent, that he's not a scumbag. The only line of defence for him is if he wasn't telling the truth, and I think that the reality is somewhere in between. He wasn't intending to hit Bisping while he was out, but he didn't feel too bad about it once it was done. A semi-scumbag :pac:

Fighters (winners and loser's) talk shit after a fight, I've done it myself - we've all done it - gone back to the corner/friends & family and talk rubbish for a few minutes.

But I refuse to believe for a moment that Henderson didn't know he'd just KO'd Bisping, it doesn't make sense. Its just something you know, its almost instinctive - you know when you've hit a cracker.

IMO what Henderson done was done with a lot of intent & some day, someone is going to replicate that with tragic consequences.

Like I said earlier, IMO his actions don't make him a scumbag but its lost him a lot of respect and does nothing for the sport.

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Karmafaerie

Zoie Poor Sunshine wrote: »

Fighters (winners and loser's) talk shit after a fight, I've done it myself - we've all done it - gone back to the corner/friends & family and talk rubbish for a few minutes.

But I refuse to believe for a moment that Henderson didn't know he'd just KO'd Bisping, it doesn't make sense. Its just something you know, its almost instinctive - you know when you've hit a cracker.

IMO what Henderson done was done with a lot of intent & some day, someone is going to replicate that with tragic consequences.

Like I said earlier, IMO his actions don't make him a scumbag but its lost him a lot of respect and does nothing for the sport.

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I'm sorry, but on quite a few occasions I've hit somebody and thought they were out, or hit somebody and thought they were okay, only to be proven wrong.
I remeber one time thinking that I barely cuffed a guy with a high kick, only to have him colapse and spend the next five minutes seeing double.


And that was just sparring.
UFC 100 = Slightly different!

Maybe you have magic hands, but it's not something the rest of us are gifted with.
When you've been fighting as long as Hendo, I'm sure you realise a simple fact.
Until the fight is over, take nothing for granted.

When you're fighting in one of the most personal fights of your career, in the biggest MMA event of all time, with thousands shouting all around you, millions watching all over the world, and months and months of work, pr, and bad blood in your head, I think it would be impossible to know for certain whether the fight was over or not.

consultech

Karmafaerie wrote: »

What are you on about?!

When you're in the middle of fight, and have half of a second to react, there is nothing going through your mind.

Nothing.

He hit Bisping, and Bisping went down.
How often have fighters been badly, badly, rocked, and recovered.
It usually happens at least once a ppv if not more.
You have to make sure of the fight, or it can cost you big time.

I didn't see Hendo knock out Bisping, stop, go down and check his pulse, hold up a few fingers for him, and then throw the second.
Hendo hit the right, and Bisping went down, he had already thrown the second before the ref moved.
Before Bisping had come to rest.
Before he knew Bisping was out.
He then got up and walked away.

If you listened to Hendos post fight interview, you'll see he says that he didn't remember what happened before the first right.
As in he didn't know how he had set up the knock out.

So you think that while he can't remember what happened just before the KO, he knew what was happening and made a reasoned decision on the medical state of another man, and decided to hit a man while he was out, in the fraction of a second between one punch and the second?!!!!!!


Hendo came out and made a stupid joke about shutting Bisping up.
He has said that countless times.
Hendo did exactly what every fighter does.
He tries to finish the fight.

Bisping, countless MMA fighters, commentators, Hendo, refferees, and officials have all said there is nothing wrong with what Hendo did.

The English media, and the usuals over on Sherdog have made a complete mountain out of a molehill.

In fairness to Bisping, a fighter who's personality I really don't like, he's come out of all this very well, by saying the exact truth.

He made no excuses.
He didn't do a BJ and cry.
He said the better fighter won, and that's that.



Simples.

tl;dr

consultech

consultech wrote: »

tl;dr

If you didnt read it then don't post a reply. Surely resorting to this kind of stupidity means you have no rebuttal to his well constructed point?

siochain

Karmafaerie wrote: »

I'm sorry, but on quite a few occasions I've hit somebody and thought they were out, or hit somebody and thought they were okay, only to be proven wrong.
I remeber one time thinking that I barely cuffed a guy with a high kick, only to have him colapse and spend the next five minutes seeing double.


And that was just sparring.
UFC 100 = Slightly different!

Maybe you have magic hands, but it's not something the rest of us are gifted with.
When you've been fighting as long as Hendo, I'm sure you realise a simple fact.
Until the fight is over, take nothing for granted.

When you're fighting in one of the most personal fights of your career, in the biggest MMA event of all time, with thousands shouting all around you, millions watching all over the world, and months and months of work, pr, and bad blood in your head, I think it would be impossible to know for certain whether the fight was over or not.

Thats right about sums its up.

ever take the weekends fight, randy was rocked a few times and Nogueira when in evertime to try and finish the job.

arybvtcw0eolkf

consultech wrote: »

tl;dr

Deleted User wrote: »

If you didnt read it then don't post a reply. Surely resorting to this kind of stupidity means you have no rebuttal to his well constructed point?

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "tl;dr" mean?.

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cletus

Zoie Poor Sunshine wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, but what does "tl;dr" mean?.

.

too long; didnt read (stupit text/l33t speak)

arybvtcw0eolkf

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Maybe you have magic hands, but it's not something the rest of us are gifted with.

Well you know what you can do with that type of reply - stick it back in the hole it came from.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

you've been fighting as long as Hendo, I'm sure you realise a simple fact.
Until the fight is over, take nothing for granted.

I'd have given Hendo the credit to know that punch was an instant KO, if he didn't then I'd substitute "scumbag" with 'Muppet'.

I don't think Hendo had any real intent to cause serious harm to Bisping with the follow through, but I won't believe for a moment that he didn't realize Bisping was KO'd. .

Even with my opinion that Hendo knew full well what he was doing, I truely don't think he was a scumbag for doing it - but don't try tell me he was ignorant of the fact that Bisping was out and the follow through was not retribution - but is the UFC and an audience of millions the place to do that?.

Don't get me wrong on something here, open your mouth & throw around the attitude like Bisping did in TUF and you deserve to be thought a lession - I think most of us have witnessed similar in training - the mouth piece being taken down a peg or two, but in the UFC and to a completely unconcience opponent!.. He crossed a line in the sand, but hey its only my opinion and I'm not even a huge UFC fan.

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Karmafaerie

Zoie Poor Sunshine wrote: »

Well you know what you can do with that type of reply - stick it back in the hole it came from.


I'd have given Hendo the credit to know that punch was an instant KO, if he didn't then I'd substitute "scumbag" with 'Muppet'.

I don't think Hendo had any real intent to cause serious harm to Bisping with the follow through, but I won't believe for a moment that he didn't realize Bisping was KO'd. .

Even with my opinion that Hendo knew full well what he was doing, I truely don't think he was a scumbag for doing it - but don't try tell me he was ignorant of the fact that Bisping was out and the follow through was not retribution - but is the UFC and an audience of millions the place to do that?.

Don't get me wrong on something here, open your mouth & throw around the attitude like Bisping did in TUF and you deserve to be thought a lession - I think most of us have witnessed similar in training - the mouth piece being taken down a peg or two, but in the UFC and to a completely unconcience opponent!.. He crossed a line in the sand, but hey its only my opinion and I'm not even a huge UFC fan.

.

I'm not trying to be insulting here, but if you seriously have the ability to know if anybody you hit is out cold, in less than a second, then you're one of a kind.

No body else does.

Everybody is different.
Everyone can take a punch to different degrees.
There are plenty of people out there who could have taken that punch.
Bisping is a big middleweight, and he most deffinately can take a punch.

Lets be honest here mate.
Hendo didn't see the punch 25 times, in slow motion, from a half dozen angles.
He didn't know how it landed.
He didn't know Bispings jaw was prone.
He didn't know Bisping had his weight badly disributed.
He didn't know just how well he connected.
He wasn't even looking at Bisping when he threw the punch.

He threw the punch, and knew he had hurt Bisping, but there was no way in hell he could have known if Bisping was out.
He could have guessed.
He could have surmissed.
He could have thought.
But not known.

Bisping had never been knocked out before, and he had fought a couple of fighters with power in their hands (Hamill, Evans, Leben).


Look at it again in slow motion.

Note the simple facts.

- Hendo was not looking at Bisping at all, and didn't see the connection.

- Hendo was in the air for the second punch before Bisping came to rest on the ground.

- Bispings hands were still up when Hendo launched the final punch, they weren't flat by his sides and from Hendo's point of view, in the fraction of a second Hendo had to make his mind up, Bisping could easily have been only rocked, and defending himself.

- Bispings right foot was in the air when the punch landed, Hendo didn't know this.

- Hendo had thrown that exact punch at least two dozen times already in this fight.

- Bisping is a fighter who had never even been properly rocked before.

- Most importantly, this all happened in a fraction of a second.




Hendo may have thought Bisping was out, but he only had a fraction of the info that you seem to have given him credit for, and in all honesty had only an idea of Bispings state.


If you want to say that Hendo definately knew, then I'm sorry, enjoy your opinion, I've nothing more I can say really.

Wacker

consultech wrote: »

What if there is no tap, and a fighter is out and convulsing (which happened to be the case with Leben afterwards) though? It's up to Lavigne to use his experience in there; like would anyone who has watched MMA for 5+ minutes think Leben was getting out of that? - Let alone someone with Lavigne's experience. I'm probably making more of it than is warranted, but Rogan didn't like it at all either, and he's usually well on-point.

Well, I didn't think Randy was getting out of the choke in round one either, and I'm very glad the referee (Mario Yamasaki, if memory serves) didn't jump to conclusions. Perhaps you disagree?

consultech

consultech wrote: »

I'm probably making more of it than is warranted, but Rogan didn't like it at all either, and he's usually well on-point.

The Leben tap was hard to call as fighters are instructed to tap three times, he tapped twice then his legs and hips went up as if he was trying to scramble out. Good refereeing IMO and unfortunate that he ended up unconscious.

Also, just because Rogan says something doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I like Joe, he's a great commentator and was sound to me when I met him, but he's prone to bias and the odd bad call himself, most recently declaring that Alan Belcher was ROBBED when he fought Sexyama! I have yet to talk to someone who thought Belcher won that fight. As for his opinion on the choke, well, like I said, myself and those I watched the fight with thought Leben was about to try to explode out of it for a split second.

Tim_Murphy

:rolleyes: @ this thread. As has been pointed out a millions times already, it was a split second reaction, the same that happens all the time. The guys goes down, you follow up and finish. As has already been pointed out quiet a few times, Rogan asked a stupid question and got a stupid answer.

Seriously, I would be shocked if any of those giving out about Henderson on this thread have ever been in an MMA fight themselves, never mind been in a similar situation. When I knocked out Micky Young I followed up and hit him again whilst he was basically sitting in the corner of the ring. Those that make me a scumbag too???

I'm just after really realising how annoying keyword warriors and armchair experts are! :mad:

Dragan

Oh for **** sake, lets stop ****ing polarising people and expecting them to be more than we are.

Anyone who has posted in this thread, myself included, has had moments where we were less than gentlemen, in either our thoughts or our actions.

Grab a scale and put everything that Hendo has done well for the sport on one side, and everything he has done poorly on the other and see which side heavier.

Advice for life : Stop expecting people to be things that you will never be yourself.

Hendo is neither a good guy, nor a scumbag, he's the same tangle of choices that you are OP.

:rolleyes:

Karmafaerie

Deleted User wrote: »

The Leben tap was hard to call as fighters are instructed to tap three times, he tapped twice then his legs and hips went up as if he was trying to scramble out. Good refereeing IMO and unfortunate that he ended up unconscious.

Also, just because Rogan says something doesn't mean it's right or wrong. I like Joe, he's a great commentator and was sound to me when I met him, but he's prone to bias and the odd bad call himself, most recently declaring that Alan Belcher was ROBBED when he fought Sexyama! I have yet to talk to someone who thought Belcher won that fight. As for his opinion on the choke, well, like I said, myself and those I watched the fight with thought Leben was about to try to explode out of it for a split second.

Sorry to go off on a tangent here, but got to agree on the Belcher/Sexyama thing.

It was close, but definately a loss for Belcher.