What can a doctor without a job do?

Dr.NickRiviera

6 years of hard work in one of the top medical schools in the world. Lets not even get started with all the years of study and sacrifice in order to get into medical school in the first place. Almost 250k in 'investing' in your dream and what lies waiting at the end of the road...nothing...
The country screams out for better healthcare and more trained practitioners yet qualified doctors are told 'sorry, no job for you unfortunately...is there any chance you could get an irish passport anytime soon? That would help a lot'
What can a doctor trained to do be only a doctor do when they cant find a job? What can a person who has already sacrificed so much do in such a situation? How can they not give up, how do they not realize that all their dreams, all those hours of working late shifts in some dingy hole of a bar while their classmates got pissed...the hopes and prayers of all their loved ones...which has culminated into a single piece of useless card paper...written in latin...Medicinae Baccalaureus et Baccalaureus Chirurgiae...
If only time travel was possible...

Your thoughts and opinions are very welcome...

tallaght01

A mate of mine from Oz, a really good paediatric registrar spent the last 8 months in Europe. His fiance is from the UK, and they were going to spend 6 months working in paeds in Ireland.

But when he came over, he couldn't work. It's not like he graduated from some tinpot uni in Tanzania. He's an Ozzie grad.

So, they both went back to the UK, where he wasn't allowed work either. So, they went on a holiday and are now back in Oz.

It's insane. Irish docs are leaving enmasse, but we're not replacing them with quality graduates. It amazed me when I was working in the UK I only met one Ozzie there. Now I have an idea why.

Having said that, it was a nightmare going through the paperwork to work in Oz, and the US is the same. New Zealand was a walk in the park, though.

ergo

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

6 years of hard work in one of the top medical schools in the world. Lets not even get started with all the years of study and sacrifice in order to get into medical school in the first place. Almost 250k in 'investing' in your dream and what lies waiting at the end of the road...nothing...
The country screams out for better healthcare and more trained practitioners yet qualified doctors are told 'sorry, no job for you unfortunately...is there any chance you could get an irish passport anytime soon? That would help a lot'
What can a doctor trained to do be only a doctor do when they cant find a job? What can a person who has already sacrificed so much do in such a situation? How can they not give up, how do they not realize that all their dreams, all those hours of working late shifts in some dingy hole of a bar while their classmates got pissed...the hopes and prayers of all their loved ones...which has culminated into a single piece of useless card paper...written in latin...Medicinae Baccalaureus et Baccalaureus Chirurgiae...
If only time travel was possible...

Your thoughts and opinions are very welcome...

few questions:

you are Irish or EU qualified then?

have you done your internship ie. are you fully registered with the Irish Medical council?

are you able to do locum jobs eg. A+E or Medical SHO ? because there are a lot of them around at the moment

or is it a problem getting an intern position?

re: Irish passport - after being 6 years (presumably in ireland) are you entitled to apply for residency/citizenship -? sorry I haven't a clue about this one

drzhivago

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

6 years of hard work in one of the top medical schools in the world. Lets not even get started with all the years of study and sacrifice in order to get into medical school in the first place. Almost 250k in 'investing' in your dream and what lies waiting at the end of the road...nothing...
The country screams out for better healthcare and more trained practitioners yet qualified doctors are told 'sorry, no job for you unfortunately...is there any chance you could get an irish passport anytime soon? That would help a lot'
What can a doctor trained to do be only a doctor do when they cant find a job? What can a person who has already sacrificed so much do in such a situation? How can they not give up, how do they not realize that all their dreams, all those hours of working late shifts in some dingy hole of a bar while their classmates got pissed...the hopes and prayers of all their loved ones...which has culminated into a single piece of useless card paper...written in latin...Medicinae Baccalaureus et Baccalaureus Chirurgiae...
If only time travel was possible...

Your thoughts and opinions are very welcome...

from the thrust here I take it you are a non eu student just finished and no intern job

One option is to do a research post immediately and get another qualification. that way in the application for intern posts you are technically better qualified than those with intern degree

You could try for a locum intern post, a number do get sick, go on maternity leave

what do you want to do ultimately

Dr.NickRiviera

Thanks to all who replied. To answer some of the questions:
1. I am a non EU graduate, at the time I started my course getting a job was never an issue
2. I have not done my internship and that is what I am looking to get. This year unfortunately too many irish and eu graduates decided to stay so as a non eu graduate, im told that nothing more can be done
3. Currently I am enrolling to take the PLAB UK medical exams which are for foreign doctors...basically doing your finals again to prove you can communicate in english...which is frankly speaking absurd as I obviously have no language issue. But rules are rules and I am no different than any other.

Ive looked all over the world for possible internship and all the posts require some sort of exam to be registered in the country to practice.
therefore I find myself in a sticky situation where I can't practice anywhere but Ireland without taking further exams which will keep me out of the loop for another 6 months at least.

I am known to be resilient and never to shy from adversity but for all those that have gone through the hardships of medical school's long arduous journey are sure to understand; can a doc get a break?

One of you mentioned locum work, dont you have to have already completed your internship to do that?

My frustrations lie in the fact that so much money has been spent in getting this degree from a seemingly reputable university precisely not to have this problem. Yet i find myself in this woeful predicament nonetheless...

Without sounding over dramatic...this is without doubt the biggest knee in the gonads I have ever had!

Dr.NickRiviera

drzhivago wrote: »

One option is to do a research post immediately and get another qualification. that way in the application for intern posts you are technically better qualified than those with intern degree

what do you want to do ultimately

Can you explain what you mean by research post? Is this paid or voluntary?

I would like to get my internship done, enroll in a BST for 2 years then follow a career path in general surgery.

me_right_one

Sorry, but its the same for engineers, solicitors, architects, and well pretty much everybody in Ireland at the moment! No dream jobs here for anyone! And how did you manage to burn through 250K???????

nesf

me_right_one wrote: »

Sorry, but its the same for engineers, solicitors, architects, and well pretty much everybody in Ireland at the moment! No dream jobs here for anyone! And how did you manage to burn through 250K???????

Medical school is very expensive in the US, which I imagine is what he's been getting at.

tallaght01

what country did you graduate from? Could you not get work there? Or in Oz or NZ while you do the exams?

Dr.NickRiviera

I graduated from Ireland...probably the worst time to enter the working world in decades...I knew i should have called a sicky on that surg final lol

tallaght01

Could you not get an internship in your home country?

Dr.NickRiviera

Unfortunately as I chose to study abroad they are not obliged to train me since they have an overflow of their own graduates to train.
So basically I am buggered. Can't work there can't work here...can't work in england till I sit those PLABs, cant work in the states till I sit USMLE's etc etc
So again, what is a doctor without a job supposed to do? The banks are starting to hound me for payments on all the loans to get me this far. I am honestly cursing the day I chose to become a doctor in the first place. God, can't even get a job in spar to tide me through...Even the old bar work won't cut it anymore since all the staff have been let go...
It really is a miserable state...

JSK 252

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

6 years of hard work in one of the top medical schools in the world. Lets not even get started with all the years of study and sacrifice in order to get into medical school in the first place. Almost 250k in 'investing' in your dream and what lies waiting at the end of the road...nothing...
The country screams out for better healthcare and more trained practitioners yet qualified doctors are told 'sorry, no job for you unfortunately...is there any chance you could get an irish passport anytime soon? That would help a lot'
What can a doctor trained to do be only a doctor do when they cant find a job? What can a person who has already sacrificed so much do in such a situation? How can they not give up, how do they not realize that all their dreams, all those hours of working late shifts in some dingy hole of a bar while their classmates got pissed...the hopes and prayers of all their loved ones...which has culminated into a single piece of useless card paper...written in latin...Medicinae Baccalaureus et Baccalaureus Chirurgiae...
If only time travel was possible...

Your thoughts and opinions are very welcome...

Simple. Go on the dole.:pac:

ergo

sorry to hear about your difficulty OP

you're getting a taster of what it's going to be like for all the extra graduates that come through in the next few years since they increased the med school places

and particularly hard to swallow as you have invested so much in your studies (for people who don't know fees for non-EU students here are massive and most will end up with a mortgage size loan at the end of their studies)

it seems to me from the locum jobs available that there are a few unfilled SHO positions so you're stuck at the bottleneck that is getting an intern position

one (likely fruitless but worth a shot) option would be just to ring medical personnel depts in various hospitals throughout the country to see if they have any intern vacancies or imminent vacancies for January. As has been mentioned people do get sick/pregnant etc and often these jobs may not end up being advertised

for example I know of someone a few years ago who got bumped up to an intern post in a Dublin teaching hospital for the 6 months from January - am not sure how they filled the job in the country hospital she was in - (that vacancy arose as someone went off sick for short-medium term)

up north or England/Scotland/Wales may well be your best option

have you looked at Australia? - I do know of one (Irish) RCSI graduate who didn't complete her intership in Ireland but went straight out to Australia and started working there

in terms of interim jobs, have you tried coffee shops? I know of someone who just got a job in one last week, who just arrived in Ireland

tallaght01

I would second ergo's suggestion about looking at Oz. I found NZ to be more straightforward about getting the paperwork sorted though.

You could contact the local postgraduate deans (do you have these i Ireland?)and let them know your situation. They often hear about places becoming available at the last minute.

What about the anatomy lab at your uni, or the science labs? Do they need anyone to help do some demonstrator work for the new batch of students coming in? An email or phonecall to the anatomy professors might bring something up.

Do any of the hospitals/universities have a clinical trials group that would take you on for a period of time? I'm doing a masters part time at the minute, so I'm not working in my normal job fulltime. Therefore, I needed to pick up extra hours, so a clinical trials unit rang me and offered me all the hours I wanted. This happened because I told lots of people to keep me in mind for extra shifts etc, and someone overheard a convo about needing someone, and recommended me to the consultant. It's all about getting yourself out there.

There's a few options, but it's a balls of a situation to be in, in fairness.

I would say let as many people as possible in the medical world now your predicament. Then if anyone hears about an opening, they might point you in the right direction.

sillymoo

JSK 252 wrote: »

Simple. Go on the dole.:pac:

Thats really helpful.

Big_G

I have friends who were in similar situations, but were dentists and so didn't have to do internships etc. They did have to jump through the immigration loopholes though in order to get permission to work.

I think the whole thing needs reform. Your situation is ridiculous. It's enough to make someone want to go to the papers.

me_right_one

nesf wrote: »

Medical school is very expensive in the US, which I imagine is what he's been getting at.

Where did the doctor mention he was from America? Are you @Dr.NickRiviera?

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Unfortunately as I chose to study abroad they are not obliged to train me since they have an overflow of their own graduates to train.
So basically I am buggered. Can't work there can't work here...can't work in england till I sit those PLABs, cant work in the states till I sit USMLE's etc etc
So again, what is a doctor without a job supposed to do?

Well no offence, but go and sit your PLAB's and USMILE's. You didnt come all this way to fall at the last hurdle! Its not the first time there have been job shortages, and it wont be the last. In fact, there will be more time like this than not, so arm yourself with all the exams and courses that you can, especially now while you're at a loose end!

And as for your own country, how qualified are you? Why do you need extra training? Could you not start operating as a GP and earn some money back?

AmcD

me_right_one wrote: »

And as for your own country, how qualified are you? Why do you need extra training? Could you not start operating as a GP and earn some money back?

Just for the record: to be a GP you need a minimum of
1 year as an intern
4 years doing a post-graduate GP training scheme (if you are lucky enough to get a place)

OP- would a supernumery job be an option as a last resort?
It sounds like a lot of hassle, but it might be worth ringing all the medical manpower managers from Letterkenny to Waterford. As others have said, intern jobs can crop up.

Pete4779

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

I graduated from Ireland...probably the worst time to enter the working world in decades...I knew i should have called a sicky on that surg final lol

I thought that medical schools are obliged to find all graduates internship places as it's a requirement to be fully registered and completed training. Only graduates from Irish universities can do internship here.

CaoimheX

Pete4779 wrote: »

I thought that medical schools are obliged to find all graduates internship places as it's a requirement to be fully registered and completed training. Only graduates from Irish universities can do internship here.

I believe that to be true

Spipov

not necessarily.

there are only some 400 - 450 intern jobs and there are usually 600 graduates a year (the figures might be wrong, but there is a significant difference between availability of jobs and number of people graduating).

historically, lets take RCSI as an example.

out of a class graduating of 180-200, usually up to 100-120 would be leaving, back to malaysia, US, Oz, Norway and The UAE/Dubai etc.

therefore that leaves about 40-50 to apply for jobs here.

however, RCSI, some time back guaranteed you to get an intern post when you graduated but since 2003 (people coming in from 2003), not anymore.

the intern jobs are given as follows:

Honour students/graduates - 1st class, 2nd class
Irish born
Eu Born
Non-eu Born


and im talking about what i know coz i nearly fell into the last category and not getting a job, thank god. i know the people 2 years after me started having real difficulty getting intern posts.

since nowadays less and less are leaving the country to do internships elsewhere, the competition has increased, leaving non eu born but graduating here last in the pile, even if they got good passes and did better than say an irish or eu born, they would still fall after.


survival of the one born closer to ireland?oh well.

im sorry DrNickRivieira, i have no more insight to give except maybe do you USMLE's and plabs and apply in January, there are always some posts available somewhere in the country in January.

drzhivago

Pete4779 wrote: »

I thought that medical schools are obliged to find all graduates internship places as it's a requirement to be fully registered and completed training. Only graduates from Irish universities can do internship here.

No obligation to find places, qualified in early 90's and at that stage there werent even enough places for Irish grads, at least now there are more places

Not true that only graduates from irish Universities can do internship here, worked with a girl who graduated from UK and did internship in Cork.

Rare but no block to other grads

drzhivago

Spipov wrote: »

not necessarily.

there are only some 400 - 450 intern jobs and there are usually 600 graduates a year (the figures might be wrong, but there is a significant difference between availability of jobs and number of people graduating).

historically, lets take RCSI as an example.

out of a class graduating of 180-200, usually up to 100-120 would be leaving, back to malaysia, US, Oz, Norway and The UAE/Dubai etc.

therefore that leaves about 40-50 to apply for jobs here.

however, RCSI, some time back guaranteed you to get an intern post when you graduated but since 2003 (people coming in from 2003), not anymore.

the intern jobs are given as follows:

Honour students/graduates - 1st class, 2nd class
Irish born
Eu Born
Non-eu Born


and im talking about what i know coz i nearly fell into the last category and not getting a job, thank god. i know the people 2 years after me started having real difficulty getting intern posts.

since nowadays less and less are leaving the country to do internships elsewhere, the competition has increased, leaving non eu born but graduating here last in the pile, even if they got good passes and did better than say an irish or eu born, they would still fall after.


survival of the one born closer to ireland?oh well.

im sorry DrNickRivieira, i have no more insight to give except maybe do you USMLE's and plabs and apply in January, there are always some posts available somewhere in the country in January.

His point is he needs registration, you get tayt by completing what is an internship position

There is no requirement to be paid for internship

If he volunteered to do leave cover in a hospital he would get accreditation for his internship, messy but would achieve his goal

If he doesnt do that no guarantee of a place next year either

Pete4779

drzhivago wrote: »

His point is he needs registration, you get tayt by completing what is an internship position

There is no requirement to be paid for internship

If he volunteered to do leave cover in a hospital he would get accreditation for his internship, messy but would achieve his goal

If he doesnt do that no guarantee of a place next year either

That is actually the best option perhaps. Take out a small loan to cover minimal living expenses, pick and choose the best places to fulfill the requirements, after a year you can then go anywhere.

Dr.NickRiviera

Thank you all for the posts. I have called all hospitals in the republic and notified them of my situation. Unfortunately when posts do become available they all recruit directly from the medical schools. I have arranged that they all receive my CV and details so I am on their record anyway.
Meanwhile I am enrolled to sit my PLAB part 1's in november this year. So at least I have something to work towards to tide me over. I am also looking into a research/rotational post so that the gap between graduation and when I eventually land something does not look like it was wasted. So far the issue with insurance seems to be the problem but I will keep trying.
As for applying for a loan, I have already taken out as many loans as I could to get me this far. And I am struggling to pay the payments of those as it is. Which is the biggest problem. I've never had financial pressure of this kind and although banks are happy to facilitate prospective doctors in times of trouble, its all because they know they will be working and paying them back. So without work, Im in trouble.
An interesting thing I have discovered is that the gatekeepers of finding an internship are the medical schools admin staff. Since the whole process is not transparent, a certain degree of trust must be placed upon them. Trust which I fear and know is to a certain degree misplaced. Well, with this certain character anyway. I know for a fact that students in my class that had to do 3 repeats of their finals have been offered and taken positions before me. They are not even EU grads. When I asked to why this happened I was told
'Oh really? And you are certain of this are you? Could you not be just imagining things in your head perhaps?'
What am I supposed to reply to this? Antagonizing the person that holds your career in their hands is not the smart thing to do. Alas, I remember my father saying to me growing up 'Son, never let anyone have the upper hand on your life. Work hard always and never let anyone have you at their mercy' So, I've worked hard, but I'm at someones mercy because of a piece of paper saying I'm from X country which happens not to be in the EU. I wish he was still with us so I could ask for his advice...
Once again, thank you all for your replys and please do keep them coming. I find your support and understanding more helpful than you could possibly imagine.

Hootanany

You could go against your colleges and only charge €20 as a nixer

tallaght01

are australia/nz or the UK definitely not an option?

tallaght01

Do you know anyone else who;s unemployed? If so (and even if you don't), you should start writing letters. Write to Harney. Although the health service is run by pillocks, politicians can still do stuff for individuals if they want to.

Write to the Dean of your medical school. You don't have to go into the specifics, but let him know you aren't getting any help from the postgrad office.

Just write to people. Telephone people looking for their advice if you can get them. It all plants seeds.

IN the meantime, like I said, look fr clinical trials groups, or research groups. Get in touch with the researchers at the uni.

Why exactly would your home country not let you do an internship there? Have you begged them?

I doubt it would work, but you could try the aid agencies. They usually only take poeople with experience, and pay you a small living allowance. u it might keep the bank off your back.

drzhivago

Dr.NickRiviera wrote: »

Thank you all for the posts. I have called all hospitals in the republic and notified them of my situation. Unfortunately when posts do become available they all recruit directly from the medical schools. I have arranged that they all receive my CV and details so I am on their record anyway.
.

Dont annoy anyone in an office it will end in your tears

The links to medical schools is not technically legal and was meant to be broken this year, you need to get on to the Dean of your medical school and the intern coordinator, if you get leave cover job then at leas you are racking up weeks to count for registration, would need to be soon though as ticking clock means you will need to do some of next years intern time also to get registered at this stage