Driving without road tax

ev612337

Hi all,
What is the law regarding road tax whn selling a vehicle? I have had my second car for sale since Jan, its road tax expired end Feb '09 and I have not driven it since so never taxed it again. today I sold it and was driving to meet the new owner and carry out the transaction/exchange. En route, I stopped at a post office in Longford town and parked etc. I paid the parking meter etc. and was fine. however, upon returning to the car, I met the parking warden who had just ticketed the car for no road tax with a fine of 60 Euro!!! What's the deal here? Am I not allowed to drive the vehicle to deliver it to a new owner? Is there a way to get the fine removed? I was merely the "courier" at the end of the day. Isn't there some scope for people to do what I was doing without having to tax the vehicle for the min period of 3 months???
Any advice/experience/ideas most welcome,
thanks,
Confused...

Vain

If the car isnt taxed it shouldn't be on the road. So im afraid your stuck with the fine.

Dartz

ev612337 wrote: »

Hi all,
What is the law regarding road tax whn selling a vehicle? I have had my second car for sale since Jan, its road tax expired end Feb '09 and I have not driven it since so never taxed it again. today I sold it and was driving to meet the new owner and carry out the transaction/exchange. En route, I stopped at a post office in Longford town and parked etc. I paid the parking meter etc. and was fine. however, upon returning to the car, I met the parking warden who had just ticketed the car for no road tax with a fine of 60 Euro!!! What's the deal here? Am I not allowed to drive the vehicle to deliver it to a new owner? Is there a way to get the fine removed? I was merely the "courier" at the end of the day. Isn't there some scope for people to do what I was doing without having to tax the vehicle for the min period of 3 months???
Any advice/experience/ideas most welcome,
thanks,
Confused...

You can hope you don't get caught lol... Many people do it for years...... Unfortunately, you were just unlucky man. Them's the breaks.

I didn't think it was an outright fine though, I thought it was a court appearance automatically. If it is, then the judge will probably be lenient, since you were obviously selling the thing....

narwog81

AFAIK while its obviously illegal to drive a car untaxed, its also illegal to drive a vehicle on a public road without displaying a valid tax disc.

so even if you have tax but dont have the disc up you can still get done.

irisheddie85

you have to have the car taxed if you are driving it on the road so you have to pay the fine.
You could be evil and as you were seling the car put todays date on the change of ownership and fill in the place on the fine that says you were not responsible for the car and get it passed on to the new owner to pay. But im not saying this would definatley work or not come back to bite you in the ass

ev612337

The car is sold, but I'm left with the fine. How does the system make an allaowance for this, it must be common for people to end up buying a new car like I did and being left with their old car "for sale". Then when sold, someone has to drive it until it's next taxed. There is no point in me keeping it taxed when i'm not driving/using it, and the new owner has no obligation to tax it until they own it. So, what can I do if there's no road tax when I sell it? Is the buyer meant to arrange a tow? The vehicle needs to be driven on road without tax to get to new owners home until they tax it. I appreciate that the law says a vehicle must be taxed if driven on a public road, but in the case of a sale of an untaxed vehicle that's been off the road, there must be some flexibility given that the motor tax people will not allow it to be taxed for 1 day or a few days etc. and the min tax period is 3 months... Surely i can't be expected to tax it for three moths just for the previlidge of driving it from point A to point B on one day for all of an hour and a half?

ev612337

Like irisheddie85 suggests, I might phone the new owner on Monday, explain the situation and ask them if they'd mind being scape goat. They could claim they'd just bought the vehicle and had not yet taxed it and were ticketted on Longford main street. This would be a lie obviously, but it might be the best way of getting the authorities to waive the fine...??? It'd be better if the parking warden i spoke to was reasonable, but they never are. he talked to the kerb or to his meter instead of to me, and told me that i must "prove" that what I told him was true. Since when did they presume you are lying to them? Surely it's not the first time someone has done what I was doing. The car is now in the new owners name and I've kept a copy of the rear of the VLC showing the change of ownership and the date being the same as the date of the fine.

slimjimmc

Dartz wrote: »

You can hope you don't get caught lol... Many people do it for years...... Unfortunately, you were just unlucky man. Them's the breaks.

I didn't think it was an outright fine though, I thought it was a court appearance automatically. If it is, then the judge will probably be lenient, since you were obviously selling the thing....

Nah, if the tax is not to much out of date (<3mths) it's just a fixed penalty notice (fine) which you pay at any Garda station or post office. It goes to court if you don't pay within the specified period.

ev612337 wrote: »

The car is sold, but I'm left with the fine. How does the system make an allaowance for this, it must be common for people to end up buying a new car like I did and being left with their old car "for sale".

Law makes no allowance, you must have and display motor tax at all times regardless of why your driving it.

ev612337 wrote: »

Then when sold, someone has to drive it until it's next taxed.

No they don't have to drive it at all, they choose to drive it, and afaik it can be taxed once they present proof of ownership (copy of change of ownership form) without waiting for VLC documents to arrive from Shannon.

ev612337 wrote: »

There is no point in me keeping it taxed when i'm not driving/using it, and the new owner has no obligation to tax it until they own it. So, what can I do if there's no road tax when I sell it? Is the buyer meant to arrange a tow?

The car is legally in their name the very moment both parties sign the change of ownership form. If you are not the one driving then it's not your problem.

ev612337 wrote: »

The vehicle needs to be driven on road without tax to get to new owners home until they tax it.

It can be put on a trailer or flatbed truck. You can be nice and tax it for them or you can ask them for the money to tax it on their behalf, or they can tax it themselves once they present the change of ownership.
There are options, whether or not you/they choose to take them is a different matter.

ev612337 wrote: »

I appreciate that the law says a vehicle must be taxed if driven on a public road, but in the case of a sale of an untaxed vehicle that's been off the road, there must be some flexibility given that the motor tax people will not allow it to be taxed for 1 day or a few days etc. and the min tax period is 3 months... Surely i can't be expected to tax it for three moths just for the previlidge of driving it from point A to point B on one day for all of an hour and a half?

There's No flexibility in the law and Yes you are expected to tax the car even if it's on the road for 5 mins. However, most Gardaí would most likely apply a bit of discretion and let you on your way if you can convince them you're not out to cheat the system.

I presume you have insurance on this car while your driving it for that hour and a half.

slimjimmc

ev612337 wrote: »

Like irisheddie85 suggests, I might phone the new owner on Monday, explain the situation and ask them if they'd mind being scape goat. They could claim they'd just bought the vehicle and had not yet taxed it and were ticketted on Longford main street. This would be a lie obviously, but it might be the best way of getting the authorities to waive the fine...??? It'd be better if the parking warden i spoke to was reasonable, but they never are. he talked to the kerb or to his meter instead of to me, and told me that i must "prove" that what I told him was true. Since when did they presume you are lying to them? Surely it's not the first time someone has done what I was doing. The car is now in the new owners name and I've kept a copy of the rear of the VLC showing the change of ownership and the date being the same as the date of the fine.

It's worth a try but I don't think it will work since the ticket has been issued already, but you never know until you try.

Interceptor

The law is very clear on this and as a motorist you are obliged to make yourself familiar with it. No taxee, no drivee - simple.

We have a motor tax administration system which was designed in the dark ages and it hasn't been brought up to date to allow you to tax something instantly online so you can print the disc and go drive it, however your idea to get the new owner to claim they were using it and try to avoid the ticket is plain daft. If I was the new owner I'd tell you where to get off. What if a cop car with ANPR picked you out of the crowd? Car confiscated for not having been taxed in six months.

You were unlucky - most untaxed cars are never detected. Pay the fine, get over it.

'cptr

Pete4779

ev612337 wrote: »

Hi all,
Isn't there some scope for people to do what I was doing without having to tax the vehicle for the min period of 3 months???
Any advice/experience/ideas most welcome,
thanks,
Confused...

The car isn't allowed on the road if it's not taxed. A month or even two might go with a warning, but 6 months is enough for them to simply ticket you. If it's not taxed then getting some sort of truck or transporter is the best way to transport it, like you would with a track car that is not registered for road use,e tc., .,

biggus

Look on the bright side

its sold !

and you didn't have to pay €150 to a delivery truck

and you weren't prosecuted for no tax

and so you won't lose a days pay going to court

and you won't be convicted or lose sleep worrying

and sure isn't the fine money going to a good cause the council need it

Go spend a few bob and celebrate !!!!

Gumbo

ev612337 wrote: »

The car is sold, but I'm left with the fine. How does the system make an allaowance for this, it must be common for people to end up buying a new car like I did and being left with their old car "for sale". Then when sold, someone has to drive it until it's next taxed. There is no point in me keeping it taxed when i'm not driving/using it, and the new owner has no obligation to tax it until they own it. So, what can I do if there's no road tax when I sell it? Is the buyer meant to arrange a tow? The vehicle needs to be driven on road without tax to get to new owners home until they tax it. I appreciate that the law says a vehicle must be taxed if driven on a public road, but in the case of a sale of an untaxed vehicle that's been off the road, there must be some flexibility given that the motor tax people will not allow it to be taxed for 1 day or a few days etc. and the min tax period is 3 months... Surely i can't be expected to tax it for three moths just for the previlidge of driving it from point A to point B on one day for all of an hour and a half?

ev612337 wrote: »

Like irisheddie85 suggests, I might phone the new owner on Monday, explain the situation and ask them if they'd mind being scape goat. They could claim they'd just bought the vehicle and had not yet taxed it and were ticketted on Longford main street. This would be a lie obviously, but it might be the best way of getting the authorities to waive the fine...??? It'd be better if the parking warden i spoke to was reasonable, but they never are. he talked to the kerb or to his meter instead of to me, and told me that i must "prove" that what I told him was true. Since when did they presume you are lying to them? Surely it's not the first time someone has done what I was doing. The car is now in the new owners name and I've kept a copy of the rear of the VLC showing the change of ownership and the date being the same as the date of the fine.

it will make no difference i would imagine, as your being fined for the non displaying of a valid tax disc, and it doesnt matter if you only bought it, the fine would still stand.

most garda will give some discretion (sp) while out on the road or at a regulat check point, but with the warden, onces its written in the book, it has to be followed up.

im afraid your more than likely just going to have to suck it up and pay the fine.

i know if i bought a car and the previous owner rang me saying he got a fine, and asking me to do what you want me to do, i would laugh, sorry, but thats the reality of the situation. the new owner would effectively be taking responibilty of the fine and if they didnt waive it then he must pay it, so i wouldnt take the risk if i was the new owner.

and as you say, you are just the courier of the car to the new buyer, why did you stop in the post office? i know its easy looking back in hindsight but if you didnt stop at the post office for your own personal reason, then you would not of got the fine, so nothing to do with the new owner or sale!

anyway, look on the bright side, you sold your car during these dark times

ev612337

Thank you all for your advice, opinion and comments.

I do appreciate that the system is incredibly old and unfriendly, there should be a way to buy on-line a 24hr road tax disc that you print yourself for a fixed fee that's reasonable, and would allow you to drive legally for the purposes of car sale/purchase. But, sadly there isn't. I also realise that if I'd met the Gardái the likelihood is that when I explained my situation, the officer would likely have allowed me to proceed. Equally, on the buyer homeward journey, if they met the Gardái they too would have been able to explain and be allowed to proceed.

The parking warden did say that if I can prove that I was telling the truth (automatically, they do not believe you as I'm sure they hear this kind of thing all the time) at the CoCo offices I could have the ticket revoked. I've made a photocopy of the change owner form on rear of VLC and will try to make my case at CoCo office tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will just suffer the fine and move on.

It is a bit sad that the system does not facilitate people in my situation. i remember years ago when we bought the car, the garage gave us a blacka nd white printed thing to put in windscreen to state the vehicle was in ownership change etc. and this apparently would stop a parking warden from ticketing the car. I don't know if it worked or was legal, but the garage seemed to think it was the done thing and normal. Joe citizen like me has no such forms though so i have had to take the chance. I was on personal business anyway, so stopping to post a package was not anything I "shouldn't" have been up to really, so i don't see why it matters. I was just unlucky that the parking warden was about and didn't seem to mind getting wet as he patroled the streets looking for victims. Maybe he works on commission lol.

Cheers

bazz26

There are two things here:

1. The vehicle not being taxed.
2. Not having a valid tax disc on display.

You got fined for no. 2.

You

ev612337 wrote: »

Thank you all for your advice, opinion and comments.

I do appreciate that the system is incredibly old and unfriendly, there should be a way to buy on-line a 24hr road tax disc that you print yourself for a fixed fee that's reasonable, and would allow you to drive legally for the purposes of car sale/purchase. But, sadly there isn't. I also realise that if I'd met the Gardái the likelihood is that when I explained my situation, the officer would likely have allowed me to proceed. Equally, on the buyer homeward journey, if they met the Gardái they too would have been able to explain and be allowed to proceed.

The parking warden did say that if I can prove that I was telling the truth (automatically, they do not believe you as I'm sure they hear this kind of thing all the time) at the CoCo offices I could have the ticket revoked. I've made a photocopy of the change owner form on rear of VLC and will try to make my case at CoCo office tomorrow. If that doesn't work I will just suffer the fine and move on.

It is a bit sad that the system does not facilitate people in my situation. i remember years ago when we bought the car, the garage gave us a blacka nd white printed thing to put in windscreen to state the vehicle was in ownership change etc. and this apparently would stop a parking warden from ticketing the car. I don't know if it worked or was legal, but the garage seemed to think it was the done thing and normal. Joe citizen like me has no such forms though so i have had to take the chance. I was on personal business anyway, so stopping to post a package was not anything I "shouldn't" have been up to really, so i don't see why it matters. I was just unlucky that the parking warden was about and didn't seem to mind getting wet as he patroled the streets looking for victims. Maybe he works on commission lol.

Cheers

I got one of these reciepts from a maindealer with my last car. As you say, stuck it in the holder where the tax disc should be. Stopped at a regular checkpoint and the Garda said he never saw such a thing before, or even heard of it, (and he was a middle aged Garda with a few years under his belt I'd imagine). He let me off anyway..

ViDuchie

Anyone know the general fine for a court summons on not having road tax on display.

This is what happened me. No fixed penalty notices or anything. Just 1 year Later a summons in the door for a court appearance. I was parked so had no idea this was on the way.

Funnily enough I had paid the tax a few days later, but I admit it I was about a month off when my details were scribbled down in a gardas book.

So anyone know what a typical fine is. Does the judge take into consideration that I had it paid a few days later?

Cheers,

V

Toxic123

Just wondering , If a person is caught driven a car without tax and there not the owner of the car who is liable the driver , owner or both?

Drummerboy08

The driver of the vehicle is liable.

Now someone shoot this zombie thread!

Esel

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

The driver of the vehicle is liable.

Now someone shoot this zombie thread!

Zombie thread??? OP is dated 30-08-2009 @ 01:36.....

Esel

ViDuchie wrote: »

Anyone know the general fine for a court summons on not having road tax on display.

This is what happened me. No fixed penalty notices or anything. Just 1 year Later a summons in the door for a court appearance.

I thought the summons had to be issued within six months of the offence? Could be wrong though!

ViDuchie

I think the guard has to apply for the summons within 6 months, rather than you get it in the door within 6 months. He made it on this case.

tomred1

You got 7 months road tax for €60.Get over it pay the fine.