Bob Casey believes the Magners League is now stronger than the English Premiership

[Jackass]

Irish Independent wrote:

Casey set for Celtic storm

By HUGH FARRELLY

Friday August 28 2009

LONDON IRISH captain Bob Casey believes the Magners League is now stronger than the English Premiership and says the Celtic sides are the ones to beat when European competition gets underway in October.

The Magners League provided three of the final four teams in last season's Heineken Cup (including eventual winners Leinster) and supplied 29 players for the Lions tour to South Africa with 13 of those starting the second Test.

With Celtic countries providing five Triple Crowns, three Grand Slam winners and three Heineken Cup winners since 2005, the Premiership has been short on medal-winners in recent times and the competition's credibility has been further damaged by recent scandals involving Harlequins and Bath.

Former Leinster second-row Casey acknowledges that there has been a certain condescension in England towards the Celtic competition, but claims that is no longer the case.

"I think the Magners League is as strong if not stronger than the Premiership," said Casey.

"The Premiership may have had a certain arrogance about it, thinking it was the best but the Magners League has caught up with it. When Leinster won (the Heineken Cup), it was hard not to gloat. Obviously, I couldn't because I make my living in England -- okay, maybe I did a little bit ... but it was brilliant for Irish rugby."

London Irish have been grouped with Leinster in this season's Heineken Cup and face the European champions tonight in a friendly at Donnybrook (7.0), although Casey will not be lining out.

The sides will not be giving too much away before they meet for real in Europe in October but Casey is hoping for a good run-out before they kick off their domestic campaign against Saracens in Twickenham the following weekend, when he expects to return to action.

"It was planned before the Heineken Cup draw came out and I'm sure they (Leinster) won't go through all their moves. I don't think any of the English clubs will be watching it so we'll be still under the radar.

"I would love to lift silverware with London Irish this season. We have been in big games, against Toulouse in the Heineken Cup semi-final two seasons ago and against Leicester in last season's Premiership final .

"But there comes a time when you have to stop learning. The time has come for this team to mature and peak and win something."

As regards his personal ambitions with Ireland, Casey ended his nine-year international exile to bring his cap-haul to seven on this summer's tour to North America and says he is in regular contact with coach Declan Kidney.

"I know Declan going back to my school days and he is a brilliant man-manager, there's been loads of dialogue with him and maybe a difference with what happened before is that he will come and watch matches or send someone to watch for him.

"It was great to pull on the green jersey again on the summer tour and obviously I would love to be involved with Ireland again this season."

Leinster have named a strong side to take on Irish this evening with the pack, in particular, full of experience, led by captain Leo Cullen, a Blackrock contemporary of Casey's.

Strength

Leinster's 82-times capped full-back Girvan Dempsey (whose son Peter was born last weekend) is named among the replacements and acknowledges that strength in depth in the province means it will be very hard to gain a place in the starting 15 this season.

"It's going to be a very tough season for me with the competition for places, especially in the back three," he conceded.

"Rob (Kearney) had a fantastic tour with the Lions, he was one of the stand-out players so it's going to be huge for me this season to put pressure on him, try to build my confidence and get into the side. It's up to me now."

Although the massively influential Rocky Elsom has returned to Australia, Dempsey is encouraged by the quality of the new arrivals.

"Rocky was just immense and it's a massive loss but I think the players we have brought in are really going to strengthen up our squad and especially in the front row with Richard Strauss and Mike Ross coming in. CJ (van der Linde) is coming back to fitness as well."

- HUGH FARRELLY

Interesting article, would tend to agree that the Irish & Welsh sides have surpassed the English...the likes of Cardiff, Ospreys, Leinster & Munster being stronger than anything that the GP has to offer...particularly in the EDF & Europe it's been all ML teams doing the winning.

phog

I've held that view for a number of years, some of the ML clashes have been as intense as a Heineken Cup match. I think it would be great if Sky bought into the TV rights as it would increase the profile of the tournament.

OT for sec, I can get into Thomond Park to watch a hard fought out ML game for around €15 yet the FAI want me to cough up €30 to watch a bunch of over paid ponces supposedly playing for their country, usually, the best display is their diving skills rather than their soccer skills:mad:

True,it would be great for the league if sky bought it,also there is no question the Magners is stronger.

NickNolte

Interesting thread. I hadn't really thought of it before but yeah, the Mageners League is certainly up there with the GP in terms of quality. The Baths, Leicesters, Wasps, Quins and London Irish's are certainly no stronger than the likes of Leinster, Munster, Cardiff and Ospreys. I'm really looking forward to the ML this year... it's getting better and better as a spectacle every year. I love how the league is still in its infancy yet growing at such as pace.

Chucky the tree

[Jackass] wrote: »

Interesting article, would tend to agree that the Irish & Welsh sides have surpassed the English...the likes of Cardiff, Ospreys, Leinster & Munster being stronger than anything that the GP has to offer...particularly in the EDF & Europe it's been basically one[/B] ML teams doing the winning.

FYP a bit there. Also, has a ML team ever won the challenge cup? It seems a bit much to say the Ospreys and Cardiff are better then Leicester when Cardiff lost to them in the semi-final last year and Ospreys as usual did nothing in the HEC. I dont see how the ML is a better competition when most of the "big" teams don't really give a toss about it. Having a supossed top european team like Cardiff finishing 6th in the ML is comical.

2040

Chucky the tree wrote: »

FYP a bit there. Also, has a ML team ever won the challenge cup? It seems a bit much to say the Ospreys and Cardiff are better then Leicester when Cardiff lost to them in the semi-final last year and Ospreys as usual did nothing in the HEC. I dont see how the ML is a better competition when most of the "big" teams don't really give a toss about it. Having a supossed top european team like Cardiff finishing 6th in the ML is comical.

Definitely. There might be better teams playing in the Magners League at the moment but that doesn't necessarily mean it's more competitive. I think the ML suffers from a severe marketing deficit. The GP has full Sky coverage and Rugby Club every week showing interviews and analysis etc. The ML needs this. It needs to be taken on by a broadcaster willing to invest in it. There was talk before about ESPN taking over from Setanta. I don't think this will happen but it would be great if it did. With some money and business acumen the ML could be the best RU league in the world, in time.

anonymous_joe

Chucky the tree wrote: »

FYP a bit there. Also, has a ML team ever won the challenge cup? It seems a bit much to say the Ospreys and Cardiff are better then Leicester when Cardiff lost to them in the semi-final last year and Ospreys as usual did nothing in the HEC. I dont see how the ML is a better competition when most of the "big" teams don't really give a toss about it. Having a supossed top european team like Cardiff finishing 6th in the ML is comical.

The Ospreys have probably got the strongest team in Europe on paper. :pac:

I do think that right now, the Magners League is very strong, which is absolutely fantastic, but it does need more money and more exposure, otherwise the Premiership will slowly but surely claw its way back above us.

[Jackass]

Chucky the tree wrote: »

FYP a bit there. Also, has a ML team ever won the challenge cup? It seems a bit much to say the Ospreys and Cardiff are better then Leicester when Cardiff lost to them in the semi-final last year and Ospreys as usual did nothing in the HEC. I dont see how the ML is a better competition when most of the "big" teams don't really give a toss about it. Having a supossed top european team like Cardiff finishing 6th in the ML is comical.

One Magners team winning?? Aw come on, Ospreys and Cardiff dominating the EDF? Leicester are the only team that can get near them..weren't 3 out of 4 semi finalists last year Welsh also (open to correction on that, not sure if Scarlets made it through, but even still, 2 out of 4 isn't bad considering it starts with 12 v 4).

Munster & Leinster have also won 3 of the last 4 Heineken Cup campaigns.

Straight away the top half of the ML is stronger than the top half of the GP. But fair enough on comments such as Cardiff finishing down the table, but to be fair, they don't have the squad to compete on 3 fronts (EDF, ML & HEC), so something was bound to give, plus it doesn't help when Munster were running away with it, you hedge your bets into the places you've a beter chance of picking up silverware, I really think the play-offs will go a long way to removing this, I'd say in 2 to 3 seasons the intensity of the ML will be at the level expected with the cream rising to the top, for both the play-off incentive and the removal of the EDF.

As for not winning the Challenge Cup, well, seeing as the only team we ever enter in it is Connacht, it's hardly surprising (no offence), but they are by far the weakest ML team, and did make the quarters, plus, the only time Dragons ever played in it (after losing a play-off to an Italian team) they made the semi finals.

In terms of the quality of teams in the competition, I think ML is a million miles ahead of the GP, very few GP teams could live with the big 4 in ML, as for the quality of competition, the league has come so far, I don't think it's going to be long, a season or two, before the quality and intensity is up there at the highest level....we got a sniff of it this season with Munster, Leinster and Ospreys scrapping it out at the top of the table...you can add Cardiff to the mix this season, I think this will be the year ML really arrives on the biggest stage, I think the following season will be the season it's clear as a high profile, priority competition to the big teams, as the play-offs make it winnable without draining from HEC resources, and with it getting tougher and tougher to win trophies with all the ML teams competing in Europe also.

Stev_o

Who's this big 4 in the ML? Leinster and Munster are the only big names in the ML that have lived up to their name. Cardiff and Ospreys wouldn't be anything magical, hell Ospreys lost to Scarries ffs in the HC.

sock puppet

[Jackass] wrote: »

One Magners team winning?? Aw come on, Ospreys and Cardiff dominating the EDF? Leicester are the only team that can get near them..weren't 3 out of 4 semi finalists last year Welsh also (open to correction on that, not sure if Scarlets made it through, but even still, 2 out of 4 isn't bad considering it starts with 12 v 4).

Munster & Leinster have also won 3 of the last 4 Heineken Cup campaigns.

Straight away the top half of the ML is stronger than the top half of the GP. But fair enough on comments such as Cardiff finishing down the table, but to be fair, they don't have the squad to compete on 3 fronts (EDF, ML & HEC), so something was bound to give, plus it doesn't help when Munster were running away with it, you hedge your bets into the places you've a beter chance of picking up silverware, I really think the play-offs will go a long way to removing this, I'd say in 2 to 3 seasons the intensity of the ML will be at the level expected with the cream rising to the top, for both the play-off incentive and the removal of the EDF.

As for not winning the Challenge Cup, well, seeing as the only team we ever enter in it is Connacht, it's hardly surprising (no offence), but they are by far the weakest ML team, and did make the quarters, plus, the only time Dragons ever played in it (after losing a play-off to an Italian team) they made the semi finals.

In terms of the quality of teams in the competition, I think ML is a million miles ahead of the GP, very few GP teams could live with the big 4 in ML, as for the quality of competition, the league has come so far, I don't think it's going to be long, a season or two, before the quality and intensity is up there at the highest level....we got a sniff of it this season with Munster, Leinster and Ospreys scrapping it out at the top of the table...you can add Cardiff to the mix this season, I think this will be the year ML really arrives on the biggest stage, I think the following season will be the season it's clear as a high profile, priority competition to the big teams, as the play-offs make it winnable without draining from HEC resources, and with it getting tougher and tougher to win trophies with all the ML teams competing in Europe also.

The problem with the ML is there's too big a gap between the top 4 and the rest. There's plenty of competition at the top of the table but bar Edinburgh, no team outside the top 4 has the consistency to challenge for a spot.

[Jackass]

Stev_o wrote: »

Who's this big 4 in the ML? Leinster and Munster are the only big names in the ML that have lived up to their name. Cardiff and Ospreys wouldn't be anything magical, hell Ospreys lost to Scarries ffs in the HC.

Who are Scarries? The only teams Ospreys lost to last season in HEC were the English and French champions by less than a score away from home, and of course, Munster, but they beat the English and French champions at home...Cardiff beat Biaritz and Gloucester home and away, knocked out French big boys Tolouse too, and only lost out to the English champs on a peno shoot out...those are good scalps for both of em in Europe. Plus both have won the EDF in the last couple of years against all the GP teams. Both at least on a par with Leicester, and a fair bit better than anyone else in GP.

Munster & Leinster are better than all GP teams imo.

sock puppet wrote: »

The problem with the ML is there's too big a gap between the top 4 and the rest. There's plenty of competition at the top of the table but bar Edinburgh, no team outside the top 4 has the consistency to challenge for a spot.

That's true alright, but that's not to say these teams aren't improving a lot season on season each year either, I think they are, just the big 4 are too...I think Edinburgh have improved a significant amount over the last couple of season, even Glasgow are getting decent at least...The Evans brothers look very good and they're a tricky enough outfit (as Leinster discovered over there this season).

Ulster I'd like to think / hope are a bit of a sleeping giant in Irish rugby...they more or less collapsed and spent years in the wilderness and steadily getting worse, but they seem to have the player base building back up, and it's a shame they've lost the guys like Neil Best and Tommy Bowe, but they've lots of good young players...if they got a decent half back pairing I reckon they'd be twice the side.

Dragons, I don't know if they'll be making much of an impact in the foreseeable future, it's a shame to say, but the same goes for Connacht imo...

But even facilities in ML are far surpassing the GP rivals...places like Liberty Stadium, Parc Y Scarlets, Thomond Park, Cardiff City Stadium are all far superior to anything in GP, RDS is bigger and better than all bar Leicester also, redeveloped Rodney Parade and Ravenhill will be top quality too...Firhill is about the same standard as the average GP ground...Murrayfield and Galway are both just a disastor.

There's great corwds in Magners for the bigger teams, although the Welsh could do with now moving on from the new stadiums and looking to pack them out...but that will come in time as the status of the league grows..

Sangre

[Jackass] wrote: »

Plus both have won the EDF in the last couple of years against all the GP teams.

This somehow weakens your argument. EDF...lol.

Stev_o

[Jackass] wrote: »

Who are Scarries? The only teams Ospreys lost to last season in HEC were the English and French champions by less than a score away from home, and of course, Munster, but they beat the English and French champions at home...Cardiff beat Biaritz and Gloucester home and away, knocked out French big boys Tolouse too, and only lost out to the English champs on a peno shoot out...those are good scalps for both of em in Europe. Plus both have won the EDF in the last couple of years against all the GP teams. Both at least on a par with Leicester, and a fair bit better than anyone else in GP.

Munster & Leinster are better than all GP teams imo.



That's true alright, but that's not to say these teams aren't improving a lot season on season each year either, I think they are, just the big 4 are too...I think Edinburgh have improved a significant amount over the last couple of season, even Glasgow are getting decent at least...The Ecans brothers look very good and they're a tricky enough outfit (as Leinster discovered over there this season).

Ulster I'd like to think / hope are a bit of a sleeping giant in Irish rugby...they more or less collapsed and spent years in the wilderness and steadily getting worse, but they seem to have the player base building back up, and it's a shame they've lost the guys like Neil Best and Tommy Bowe, but they've lots of good young players...if they got a decent half back pairing I reckon they'd be twice the side.

Dragons, I don't know if they'll be making much of an impact in the foreseeable future, it's a shame to say, but the same goes for Connacht imo...

But even facilities in ML are far surpassing the GP rivals...places like Liberty Stadium, Parc Y Scarlets, Thomond Park, Cardiff City Stadium are all far superior to anything in GP, RDS is bigger and better than all bar Leicester also, redeveloped Rodney Parade and Ravenhill will be top quality too...Firhill is about the same standard as the average GP ground...Murrayfield and Galway are both just a disastor.

There's great corwds in Magners for the bigger teams, although the Welsh could do with now moving on from the new stadiums and looking to pack them out...but that will come in time as the status of the league crows..

Funny how both just lost their last pre-season game to two GP teams though eh?

[Jackass]

Sangre wrote: »

This somehow weakens your argument. EDF...lol.

Why's that? Cause I didn't bother typing out the full name? Ok, the EDF Energy Anglo-Welsh trophy.

Stev_o wrote: »

Funny how both just lost their last pre-season game to two GP teams though eh?

I fail to see any remote significance....

If you're using pre-season friendlies as the bar to measure the ability of the 2 leagues, it's going to be fairly innacurate...I'd say Leinster are about as worried about losing to London Irish as Hugh Heffner is of ever getting a back rub off a beautiful lady again...there isn't a problem...

If we stick to the real results though, last season being the most accurate measurement of the state of play, you'll find my argument is completely water tight!! :eek:

This season will no doubt further that argument too...and see if the result in RDS v London Irish makes the Donnybrook result look like an accurate measurement of the ability of each team.

Sangre

[Jackass] wrote: »

Why's that? Cause I didn't bother typing out the full name? Ok, the EDF Energy Anglo-Welsh trophy.

As it is without a doubt the most useless and/or pointless competition I've ever seen.

Chucky the tree

[Jackass] wrote: »

One Magners team winning?? Aw come on, Ospreys and Cardiff dominating the EDF? Leicester are the only team that can get near them..weren't 3 out of 4 semi finalists last year Welsh also (open to correction on that, not sure if Scarlets made it through, but even still, 2 out of 4 isn't bad considering it starts with 12 v 4).

Munster & Leinster have also won 3 of the last 4 Heineken Cup campaigns.

Straight away the top half of the ML is stronger than the top half of the GP. But fair enough on comments such as Cardiff finishing down the table, but to be fair, they don't have the squad to compete on 3 fronts (EDF, ML & HEC), so something was bound to give, plus it doesn't help when Munster were running away with it, you hedge your bets into the places you've a beter chance of picking up silverware, I really think the play-offs will go a long way to removing this, I'd say in 2 to 3 seasons the intensity of the ML will be at the level expected with the cream rising to the top, for both the play-off incentive and the removal of the EDF.

As for not winning the Challenge Cup, well, seeing as the only team we ever enter in it is Connacht, it's hardly surprising (no offence), but they are by far the weakest ML team, and did make the quarters, plus, the only time Dragons ever played in it (after losing a play-off to an Italian team) they made the semi finals.

In terms of the quality of teams in the competition, I think ML is a million miles ahead of the GP, very few GP teams could live with the big 4 in ML, as for the quality of competition, the league has come so far, I don't think it's going to be long, a season or two, before the quality and intensity is up there at the highest level....we got a sniff of it this season with Munster, Leinster and Ospreys scrapping it out at the top of the table...you can add Cardiff to the mix this season, I think this will be the year ML really arrives on the biggest stage, I think the following season will be the season it's clear as a high profile, priority competition to the big teams, as the play-offs make it winnable without draining from HEC resources, and with it getting tougher and tougher to win trophies with all the ML teams competing in Europe also.

Who cares about the EDF? I mean the EDF is no were near as important as the GP in teams of prestige but I don't think it's far off compared to the ML. I'd certainly like to see what it's like in terms of prize money. The ML might have better teams in it then the GP but it's certainly not a better competition, I even think it doesn't have better teams but it's close. Look at the break down of semi final spots

04/05 - 1 GP team, 0 ML
05/06 - 1 GP 2 ML
06/07 - 3 GP 1 ML
07/08 - 2 GP 1 ML
08/09 - 1 GP 2 ML

Only 1 welsh team have ever made the final, Cardiff back in 1996 and consider 2 welsh team make up the suppsed "big 4" of the ML that's really doesn't say much for the ML. The strength in depth of the GP pissess all over the ML. Look at the group stages and the otuside the top teams the GP teams constantly finish ahead of the ML teams.

In terms of the quality of teams in the competition, I think ML is a million miles ahead of the GP, very few GP teams could live with the big 4 in ML

Leicester finished ahead of Ospreys in the group stages and beat Cardiff in the semi's this year. Last year Gloucester finished ahead of Ospreys in the group stages and lost to Scaracens in the 1/4, scarries aren't excactly a great GP team either. Cardiff again did brilliantly in the group stages and got tonked by toulse in the 1/4's. The fact Ospreys are even considered a big team says a lot, they never gotten based for 1/4 final stage of the HEC and have only made it passed the group stage twice in the last 6 years. this from a team who's basically guarantee qualification ever year. If cardiff and the Ospreys were in the GP and actually had to put some effort into a league format to qualify for the HEC they'd seriously struggle, and cardiff results in the HEC would always be hugely affected by this. Even the smaller teams in the ML like Gwent, Scarlets and Ulster who have no relegation to worry about can put 100% effort into the HEC consistantly get spanked by even the lesser GP teams.

irishbucsfan

Depends what you mean by stronger:

If you mean that the best teams in the Magners can beat the best teams in the premiership then yes, the Magners is stronger.

If you mean the strength of the league the whole way down to the bottom then the premiership is still far stronger. It always will be because teams at the bottom end of the table are fighting against relegation, and thusly have to continue to fight to improve themselves the whole way through the season or be faced with playing in the N1 the next season. Whereas you can look at teams like Connacht or the Dragons or (probably) the new Italian teams coming in and they have absolutely nowhere near the same incentive to perform regularly. Connacht can play like **** all season and beat Leinster and Munster and sit back and pretend to be happy with their season. Dragons can come to the RDS and perform horribly but then beat Leinster at home. That lack of competitiveness at the lower end of the league leads to ridiculous inconsistencies in performance-levels. Kind of dissappointing I guess...

Theres not really much that can be done about that. If we had more teams we could divide it into two divisions.

mikedragon32

anonymous joe wrote:

The Ospreys have probably got the strongest team in Europe on paper.

Brilliant on paper. Rubbish on the pitch.

buck65

[QUOTE=irishbucsfan;61891139y Connacht can play like **** all season and beat Leinster and Munster and sit back and pretend to be happy with their season. Theres not really much that can be done about that. If we had more teams we could divide it into two divisions.[/QUOTE]

2 things here. Connacht could have had another 2 or 3 wins but faded in the last 10 minutes - certainly they played decent rugby at times but have not the resources or the depth to challenge over a season. They have done well in Europe over the past 5 years or so - on their day they can really put it up to the best. I don't think any genuine Connacht fan can "be happy with their season" by finishing last Irish province again.

I do agree that perhaps a second tier league may be the way to go in a few years but at the moment it is hard to see enough clubs to make 2 x 10 league groups.

tommy57

i,d say gp only marginally better. ml has the usual top 4 .then the rest fight among themselves. the gp has maybe a top 6 but the rest of the league is alot stronger than the magners.But as was said not really enough teams in scotland ,ireland ,wales to make the ml really competitive.

anonymous_joe

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Brilliant on paper. Rubbish on the pitch.

Hence the reference to paper.