Demons - What are they?

philologos

I thought this might be a notable point of discussion. This topic arose on the other forum recently, and I said that my understanding of them was that in Jewish tradition that certain evil desires were personified and that they became known as demons.

On consulting Wikipedia, which I know isn't the most accurate, I noted that the Catholic Church view them as fallen angels so I just wanted to get the discussion open. What do you think demons are?

Turtwig

Atheists:pac:

Zillah

Stop-gap explanation for a variety of actual phenomena.


Rationality aside, I thought the whole fallen angel thing was pretty core to Judeo-Christian theology? Satan as a fallen Arch-Angel who failed to overthrow God is fairly widely accepted story, no?

JimiTime

Fallen angels. Satan being the original. 'We are legion', 'Herd of swine off a cliff' ring any bells?

chozometroid

I believe every current demon is from the original 1/3 that fell with Lucifer.

JimiTime

Malty_T wrote: »

Atheists:pac:

There is a famous quote, by ehhhhhh......... some guy.....anyway, it goes, 'The most devious thing the devil has done, is convinced some folk he doesn't exist':) So atheists are part of the Devils 'Comedy Central' Channel rather than being devils themselves. :pac::)

Zillah

JimiTime wrote: »

There is a famous quote, by ehhhhhh......... some guy.....anyway, it goes, 'The most devious thing the devil has done, is convinced some folk he doesn't exist':) So atheists are part of the Devils 'Comedy Central' Channel rather than being devils themselves. :pac::)

It was Keyser Soze: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

It was Keyser Soze: "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

CS Lewis put it much better 50 years earlier:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them."

RossFixxxed

"Atheists" Oh oh, I'm a demon? Well actually you might be right. But if you've ever met my cat you'd know what REAL evil is like

I would have thought that they were those that defied God even after death. You would be given the chance to repent etc, and upon refusing that you'd fall and become a demon type? Dunno though, that was just what I thought when I was young. Maybe Paradise Lost influenced that!

prinz

Jakkass wrote: »

I thought this might be a notable point of discussion. This topic arose on the other forum recently, and I said that my understanding of them was that in Jewish tradition that certain evil desires were personified and that they became known as demons.
On consulting Wikipedia, which I know isn't the most accurate, I noted that the Catholic Church view them as fallen angels so I just wanted to get the discussion open. What do you think demons are?

Both at once. The fallen angels use our evil desires to guide us astray.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

PDN

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It was in his preface to "The Screwtape Letters". Still a good read.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Fallen angels. Satan being the original. 'We are legion', 'Herd of swine off a cliff' ring any bells?

Funny you mention that, there is a new movie coming out with Dennis Quade called "Legion", where God decides to wipe humanity out (again) yet this time he sends angels to do it rather than a flood (yes yes, I know God said he would never do that again, this is Hollywood :pac:)

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote: »

Funny you mention that, there is a new movie coming out with Dennis Quade called "Legion", where God decides to wipe humanity out (again) yet this time he sends angels to do it rather than a flood (yes yes, I know God said he would never do that again, this is Hollywood :pac:)

Arnie doesn't take up arms against them does he? As a Christian I feel it appropriate to apologise for 'End of Days'.

Goduznt Xzst

Of the Christians here, can I ask, do you believe Angels and Demons have free will

prinz

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Of the Christians here, can I ask, do you believe Angels and Demons have free will

I think that's pretty much a given, seeing as how Lucifer and his demon pals were seen as fallen angels.

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Of the Christians here, can I ask, do you believe Angels and Demons have free will

This is probably going to irritate you if you're looking for a black and whire answer to construct some sort of argument.

I don't believe anyone has total free will. We all have a measure of free will, but it is limited, among other things, by the choices we made in the past.

For example, I do not have the free will to be a virgin, to become a professional footballer, or to be illiterate. My past choices have ruled those things as being forever beyond me no matter what choices I make today.

Angels and demons certainly had the free will to obey or to disobey God at some point in the past. It is debatable whether they still possess the ability to make those choices today.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Arnie doesn't take up arms against them does he? As a Christian I feel it appropriate to apologise for 'End of Days'.

As an Irish man I feel it appropriate to apologise for Gabriel Burne's performance :pac:

kiffer

Wicknight wrote: »

Funny you mention that, there is a new movie coming out with Dennis Quade called "Legion", where God decides to wipe humanity out (again) yet this time he sends angels to do it rather than a flood (yes yes, I know God said he would never do that again, this is Hollywood :pac:)

Ahhh... He just said he'd never destroy (almost) everyone using a flood again...

Genesis 9:11 wrote:

And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

Genesis 9:15 wrote:

And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Technically he could use any other non-Flood method of destruction...

PDN wrote: »

CS Lewis put it much better 50 years earlier:
"There are two equal and opposite errors into which can fall about the devils. One is to disbelieve in their existence. The other is to believe, and to feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them."

How much is excessive/unhealthy? Also... can't you both disbelieve them and feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them?

Is knowing that you should put down a circle of salt (or a little pile in each corner) to keep demons away excessive? or is it just a sensible precaution against what is considered by some to be real danger.
Surely you need to know enough to know at what it's time to fetch someone for the old Bell, Book and Candle style exorcism or it's equivalent?

Turtwig

Glad I've not seen it then:)

Goduznt Xzst

PDN wrote: »

Angels and demons certainly had the free will to obey or to disobey God at some point in the past. It is debatable whether they still possess the ability to make those choices today.

Well my question really wasn't to start an argument, I just wanted to help Jakkass with his understanding of what the majority of Christians believe Demons are. That they are not merely a concept or trait that an individual holds, but are entities equal or higher than humans but in spirit form. That they would exist even if humans did not exist or knew of their presence.

PDN, you yourself have been present at a demonic possession, or know people who have (the thread on it you posted a while back seems to of been moved or deleted). What do you believe occurs when an individual is possessed by a Demon?

Again, I am not trying to start an argument. I have no intention of doing that over here. It's just a belief of Christianity I have seldom heard a person clarify in their own words.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

This is probably going to irritate you if you're looking for a black and whire answer to construct some sort of argument.

I don't believe anyone has total free will. We all have a measure of free will, but it is limited, among other things, by the choices we made in the past.

For example, I do not have the free will to be a virgin, to become a professional footballer, or to be illiterate. My past choices have ruled those things as being forever beyond me no matter what choices I make today.

Angels and demons certainly had the free will to obey or to disobey God at some point in the past. It is debatable whether they still possess the ability to make those choices today.

That seems like an eminently sensible perspective. I guess that it opens the free will discussion up for what comes after this life.

If angels and demons have some sort of freewill, does it suggest that we, too, will have similar autonomy in new creation? It seems to me that in denying a future freewill succeeds in removing one of the most lauded gifts from God. But if one is of the opposite opinion - that we do maintain some sort of autonomy similar to what we have now - what then is to stop humans rebelling against God after the cosmos has been put to rights?

To suggest a solution to my own questions: as sin will be absent from new creation, and thus the option of sinning is removed, what is meant by the would "freewill" is then redefined on the possibilities open to us. In other words, my view on free will isn't altered simply because I can't do impossible things like fly to Mars or shoot lasers out of my eyes. For that matter, and possibly more appropriate, the curing of some physical affliction isn't what we would consider the removal of freewill.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

That seems like an eminently sensible perspective. I guess that it opens the free will discussion up for what comes after this life.

If angels and demons have some sort of freewill, does it suggest that we, too, will have similar autonomy in new creation? It seems to me that in denying a future freewill succeeds in removing one of the most lauded gifts from God. But if one is of the opposite opinion - that we do maintain some sort of autonomy similar to what we have now - what then is to stop humans rebelling against God after the cosmos has been put to rights?

To suggest a solution to my own questions: as sin will be absent from new creation, and thus the option of sinning is removed, what is meant by the would "freewill" is then redefined on the possibilities open to us. In other words, my view on free will isn't altered simply because I can't do impossible things like fly to Mars or shoot lasers out of my eyes. For that matter, and possibly more appropriate, the curing of some physical affliction isn't what we would consider the removal of freewill.

Exactly. CS Lewis (who seems to be getting quoted a lot today) in one of his SF novels (the Pelandra trilogy) suggested that if Adam & Eve had resisted the original temptation then it might have been removed from them. In other words, they would have chosen righteousness and so would then be allowed to remain forever in the state they had chosen.

In the same way, I find it eminently reasonable that, having chosen salvation and love of God, or having chosen to reject God, that after death we remain in the condition that we chose of our own free will.

Free will does not equate to freedom to change your mind as often as you like.

Fanny Cradock

Nope! Try as I might I just can't see a point to your post

kiffer wrote: »

How much is excessive/unhealthy? Also... can't you both disbelieve them and feel an excessive and unhealthy interest in them?

Did you actually read the quote? Anyway, even if Lewis did say what you erroneously believe he said, it shouldn't be too difficult to think of examples of people preoccupied with things they don't believe in. I'll forgo mentioning the all too obvious example

Turtwig

I seem to recall reading somewhere along time ago that free will vanquishes after we die and meet God. As by now we understand everything and appreciate it in a new enlightened sense, we understand both why free will was necessary and why it is no longer necessary. Salvation is a life of purity and that purity is obtained by doing what's right and as we automatically know what's right we no longer can do any wrong and have no reason to experience free will or something ..

Perhaps, there's better arguments out there,
And perhaps I've mangled this one with a forgotten memory

Afterthought: I've only ever read the Chronicles of Narnia by CS Lewis. Anyone got any high priority recommendations?
Have a whole load of other trudge to get through first though

PDN

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well my question really wasn't to start an argument, I just wanted to help Jakkass with his understanding of what the majority of Christians believe Demons are. That they are not merely a concept or trait that an individual holds, but are entities equal or higher than humans but in spirit form. That they would exist even if humans did not exist or knew of their presence.

Yes, I believe that demonic spirits have objective existence. They are not merely constructs of our minds or of our culture.

PDN, you yourself have been present at a demonic possession, or know people who have (the thread on it you posted a while back seems to of been moved or deleted). What do you believe occurs when an individual is possessed by a Demon?

I believe that the choices that we make open us up to spiritual influence. If we ask God into our lives then He will answer that prayer. If we make choices that are self-destructive then we can open ourselves to evil spirits. I believe that involvement in occultic activity, bitterness and unforgiveness etc. opens us up to evil influences.

PDN

Malty_T wrote: »

I seem to recall reading somewhere along time ago that free will vanquishes after we die and meet God. As by now we understand everything and appreciate it in a new enlightened sense, we understand both why free will was necessary and why it is no longer necessary. Salvation is a life of purity and that purity is obtained by doing what's right and as we automatically know what's right we no longer can do any wrong and have no reason to experience free will or something ..

Perhaps, there's better arguments out there,
And perhaps I've mangled this one with a forgotten memory

Salvation is an undeserved gift from God that is obtained by Christ doing what was right and by His death on our behalf.

I don't think any Christian believes that we become mindless puppets for all eternity. But, having already chosen righteousness, free will does not necessarily incllude freedom to abandon that righteousness.

Also, our knowledge will be sufficient for us not to fall into the first couple's trap of thinking that sin could be of benefit to them. In addition, our nature will be cleansed from its sinfulness so we will not have that innate bias towards sin that humans currently possess.

Turtwig

PDN wrote: »

I don't think any Christian believes that we become mindless puppets for all eternity. But, having already chosen righteousness, free will does not necessarily incllude freedom to abandon that righteousness.

I never said anything about mindless puppets. Christians still have free will but as they have become 'enlightened' they no longer need to use that free will as such because you automatically know what should be done in all situations and thus follow suit - free will becomes redundant, I suppose, would be a better way of saying it. Puppets? Definitely not!

Anyhow, I suppose, that's all well and good, but as this is just all a vague memory in my head I may either be leaving something important out, muddling it altogether, or simply got it 100% exact in which case I'm awesome:cool:

kiffer

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Nope! Try as I might I just can't see a point to your post

That's ok. Happens to the best of us.

Did you actually read the quote?

um... yes. two mistakes, Not believe, and believe but be overly interested in.

Anyway, even if Lewis did say what you erroneously believe he said,

... um... perhaps you should reread what I wrote. I think you think I said "you can't both disbelieve..." rather than "can't you both ...?" . I could be wrong and you have read my post correctly but in that case the next part of your post makes less sense.

it shouldn't be too difficult to think of examples of people preoccupied with things they don't believe in. I'll forgo mentioning the all too obvious example

Yup I can think of a whole fora full of them.
Still no answer my question about how much is too much when it comes to information about demons... ho hum...

Fanny Cradock

You are quite right. I should have taken my own advice and I apologise for my foolishness. That will teach me to use a crowded and noisy McD's as a base to post from.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure what answer you expect. Other than advising not to meddle in the first place, I don't believe there is a standard measurement – metric or otherwise - for determining unhealthy levels of demon knowledge. But at a guess I would say the answer is 42.

philologos

Is there any Biblical basis for holding demons to be beings? I'm just curious, I have to say it isn't something I have given the most thought.

candy-gal1

people watch a lot of Constantine here! lol savage movie though!

yep id say they do have free will, thats what makes them good or bad!

Turtwig

Never actually seen that...

Goduznt Xzst

Jakkass wrote: »

Is there any Biblical basis for holding demons to be beings?

What is Satan? If you can accept that the being Satan is a fallen Angel, why is it more difficult to accept that Demons are lesser fallen Angels?

Phototoxin

They are non spirtual beings, they have intelligence, being quite old they are quite intelligent however they are not omnipotent or omnipresent.

Also they can make decisons but have no free will. Whereas I can decide to kill everyone i see I can stop part way if i so choose, a demon/angel having made a decision does not see any other alternative. So they do not have free will, angels happen to be those that choose to follow god.

makes me wonder how a perfect creator could make suck farked up minions- maybe he likes to have things interesting?

postcynical

Phototoxin wrote: »

They are non spirtual beings, they have intelligence, being quite old they are quite intelligent however they are not omnipotent or omnipresent.

Also they can make decisons but have no free will. Whereas I can decide to kill everyone i see I can stop part way if i so choose, a demon/angel having made a decision does not see any other alternative. So they do not have free will, angels happen to be those that choose to follow god.

makes me wonder how a perfect creator could make suck farked up minions- maybe he likes to have things interesting?

I wonder did God create them or did they evolve that way:pac:

RossFixxxed

I'm interested to know the Biblical opinion on Demons. A lot of people's opinions etc. seem to be shaped more by Paradise Lost than by Biblical sources, I'd love to know what they are first described as!

Haven't read a Bible in about 10 years and have forgotten a lot of it, there's a lot in there!

PDN

RossFixxxed wrote: »

I'm interested to know the Biblical opinion on Demons. A lot of people's opinions etc. seem to be shaped more by Paradise Lost than by Biblical sources, I'd love to know what they are first described as!

Haven't read a Bible in about 10 years and have forgotten a lot of it, there's a lot in there!

Here's a fairly good summary on Satan and demons from Smith's Bible Dictionary.

The word itself, the Hebrew satan, is simply an “adversary,” and is so used in (1 Samuel 29:4; 2 Samuel 19:22; 1 Kings 6:4; 11:14,23,25; Numbers 22:22,33; Psalms 109:6) This original sense is still found in our Lord’s application of the name to St. Peter in (Matthew 16:23) It is used as a proper name or title only four times in the Old Testament, vis. (with the article) in (Job 1:6; 12; 2:1; Zechariah 2:1) and without the article in (1 Chronicles 21:1) It is with the scriptural revelation on the subject that we are here concerned; and it is clear, from this simple enumeration of passages, that it is to be sought in the New rather than in the Old Testament. I. The personal existence of a spirit of evil is clearly revealed in Scripture; but the revelation is made gradually, in accordance with the progressiveness of God’s method. In the first entrance of evil into the world, the temptation is referred only to the serpent. In the book of Job we find for the first time a distinct mention of “Satan” the “adversary” of Job. But it is important to remark the emphatic stress laid on his subordinate position, on the absence of all but delegated power, of all terror and all grandeur in his character. It is especially remarkable that no power of spiritual influence, but only a power over outward circumstances, is attributed to him. The captivity brought the Israelites face to face with the great dualism of the Persian mythology, the conflict of Ormuzd with Ahriman, the co-ordinate spirit of evil; but it is confessed by all that the Satan of Scripture bears no resemblance to the Persian Ahriman. His subordination and inferiority are as strongly marked as ever. The New Testament brings plainly forward the power and the influence of Satan, From the beginning of the Gospel, when he appears as the personal tempter of our Lord through all the Gospels, Epistles, and Apocalypse, it is asserted or implied, again and again, as a familiar and important truth. II. Of the nature and original state of Satan, little is revealed in Scripture. He is spoken of as a “spirit” in (Ephesians 2:2) as the prince or ruler of the “demons” in (Matthew 12:24-26) and as having “angels” subject to him in (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 12:7,9) The whole description of his power implies spiritual nature and spiritual influence. We conclude therefore that he was of angelic nature, a rational and spiritual creature, superhuman in power, wisdom and energy; and not only so, but an archangel, one of the “princes” of heaven. We cannot, of course, conceive that anything essentially and originally evil was created by God. We can only conjecture, therefore, that Satan is a fallen angel, who once had a time of probation, but whose condemnation is now irrevocably fixed. As to the time cause and manner of his fall Scripture tells us scarcely anything; but it describes to us distinctly the moral nature of the evil one. The ideal of goodness is made up of the three great moral attributes of God—love, truth, and purity or holiness; combined with that spirit which is the natural temper of the finite and dependent we find creature, the spirit of faith. We find, accordingly, opposites of qualities are dwelt upon as the characteristics of the devil. III. The power of Satan over the soul is represented as exercised either directly or by his instruments. His direct influence over the soul is simply that of a powerful and evil nature on those in whom lurks the germ of the same evil. Besides this direct influence, we learn from Scripture that Satan is the leader of a host of evil spirits or angels who share his evil work, and for whom the “everlasting fire is prepared.” (Matthew 25:41) Of their origin and fall we know no more than of his. But one passage (Matthew 12:24-26)—identifies them distinctly with the “demons” (Authorized Version “devils”) who had power to possess the souls of men. They are mostly spoken of in Scripture in reference to possession; but in (Ephesians 6:12) find them sharing the enmity to God and are ascribed in various lights. We find them sharing the enmity to God and man implied in the name and nature of Satan; but their power and action are little dwelt upon in comparison with his. But the evil one is not merely the “prince of the demons;” he is called also the “prince of this world” in (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11) and even the. “god of this world” in (2 Corinthians 4:4) the two expressions being united in (Ephesians 6:12) This power he claimed for himself, as the delegated authority, in the temptation of our Lord, (Luke 4:6) and the temptation would have been unreal had he spoken altogether falsely. The indirect action of Satan is best discerned by an examination of the title by which he is designated in Scripture. He is called emphatically ho diabolos, “the devil.” The derivation of the word in itself implies only the endeavor to break the bonds between others and “set them at variance;” but common usage adds to this general sense the special idea of “setting at variance by slander.” In the application of the title to Satan, both the general and special senses should be kept in view. His general object is to break the bonds of communion between God and man, and the bonds of truth and love which bind men to each other. The slander of God to man is best seen in the words of (Genesis 3:4,5) They attribute selfishness and jealousy to the Giver of all good. The slander of man to God is illustrated by the book of Job. (Job 1:9-11; 2:4,5) IV. The method of satanic action upon the heart itself. It may be summed up in two words—temptation and possession. The subject of temptation is illustrated, not only by abstract statements, but also by the record of the temptations of Adam and of our Lord. It is expressly laid down, as in (James 1:2-4) that “temptation,” properly so called, i.e. “trial,” is essential to man, and is accordingly ordained for him and sent to him by God, as in (Genesis 22:1) It is this tentability of man, even in his original nature, which is represented in Scripture as giving scope to the evil action of Satan. But in the temptation of a fallen nature Satan has a greater power. Every sin committed makes a man the “servant of sin” for the future, (John 8:34; Romans 6:16) it therefore creates in the spirit of man a positive tendency to evil which sympathizes with, and aids, the temptation of the evil one.

philologos

That satisfies my curiosity. Thanks a lot all.

Turtwig

Where's the 'bug-eye' emoticon when you need it?

Also, OT but, does anyone else have the same problem on boardsies as I do with blue quote boxes they burn, burn I tell ya...Yup I copied the quote into notepad to read in peace

Soul Winner

Look, Jesus believed in demons and in the devil, Satan, Lucifer or whatever you want to call him. If He's not real then Jesus et all were deluded and not to be respected as leaders of men never mind divine incarnates or whatever. So if you are a Christian then these beings are realities to you in your everyday experience or there is something your not doing right. C.S Lewis was right on the money in his Screwtape Letters. I recommend this book to any new Christian just starting out in your walk with Christ. These are the guys we are up against and they will stop at nothing to win your soul back to their father below.

Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians states in chapter six verse 12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalitie (Archos i.e rulers), against powers (Exousia i.e authorities), against the rulers (Kosmokrataras i.e. world rulers of this darkness) of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Epouranios i.e. the Heavnelies)." What are these unfleshly/inhuman forces if not demonic powers we cannot comprehend?

Christianity is war! End of! So put on the whole armour of God and get over it...

lalee17

What are demons? Well, there has to be good guys and bad guys in every tale, doesn't there? :rolleyes:

Morbert

If there is a devil then he's entirely redundant. To quote a great philosopher: "I'm not sure man needs the help."

chozometroid

Soul Winner wrote: »

Look, Jesus believed in demons and in the devil, Satan, Lucifer or whatever you want to call him. If He's not real then Jesus et all were deluded and not to be respected as leaders of men never mind divine incarnates or whatever. So if you are a Christian then these beings are realities to you in your everyday experience or there is something your not doing right. C.S Lewis was right on the money in his Screwtape Letters. I recommend this book to any new Christian just starting out in your walk with Christ. These are the guys we are up against and they will stop at nothing to win your soul back to their father below.

Paul in his Epistle to the Ephesians states in chapter six verse 12: "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalitie (Archos i.e rulers), against powers (Exousia i.e authorities), against the rulers (Kosmokrataras i.e. world rulers of this darkness) of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places (Epouranios i.e. the Heavnelies)." What are these unfleshly/inhuman forces if not demonic powers we cannot comprehend?

Christianity is war! End of! So put on the whole armour of God and get over it...

That sums it up pretty well.
Jesus Christ pretty much made a career out of casting out demons. He wanted to show us that we have power over the devil and his demons, through Him.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that Satan is not omnipresent. He cannot be in more than one place at a time, so he needs help from his fellow fallen. I do wonder though, since he is not a physical being, how fast can he move? In the book of Job he told God from where he came: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Soul Winner

chozometroid wrote: »

In the book of Job he told God from where he came: "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

In Zechariah 1:7-11 there is a strange passage about other angelic beings walking to and fro in the earth and they report to another angel and give him an account of their findings, in this case the earth is at rest. I'd imagine it is the same with Satan. He would have a hierarchy of lieutenants reporting to him. So if Satan was the prince of this world in Jesus’ time and has been since the fall of Adam, then he was also the prince of this world at the time when Zachariah had his vision. But the earth is at rest. That means that all was well with everyone, but not with God. God had to spoil the rest and shake up a few people. It is the same when people are still in the grip of the current of the mind frame of this world. Satan is not going to bother them. It is only when you put your hand in God's hand that things start getting hairy for you down here. I found that out early on in my Christian walk. People with whom I had no problem with for years suddenly became my enemy simply because I became a Christian. It is one of the greatest proofs of the truth that Christianity will cause enmity between even family members. The problem is that you have to become one in order to see it. So if Satan isn't real to you then that just means he has you comfortably in his embrace. He'll hug you and comfort you for the rest of your life as long as you remain in his prison camp. Just try to break loose of that grip and you will very quickly see the reality of Satan and his minions go to work just like when prison guard dogs are let loose from their leashes after a prisoner escapes. The prison guards don't bother you when they know you're in your place, but try to escape and you see a swift change in their body language. The same thing is true with the spiritual realm. Satan couldn't care less what you do with your life as long as your life is not used to serve God's purposes. This is as true of people who just mind their own business and live “good” lives as it is for people who deliberately go about thwarting God's plans on purpose. The only people who are freed from this supernatural death grip are those who have God's spirit in them empowering this deliverance for them and the only way you can get His spirit in you is by acting in faith on His promises. That is the only free choice anyone really has. Either throw yourself in trust on God’s Word or stay gripped by death which is where according to the Ephesians letter 2 verse 1 God finds everyone until He comes to deliver. If you’re living on easy street and not bothered by Satan then you are still in his grip and Jesus says “he that does not gather with me scatters” There is no neutral gear.