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New Irish Churches Being Built
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25-08-2009 7:31pm#1I was recently talking with an Estate Agent in Dublin, and he was expressing his amazement at how churches are the only kind of concern that seem to be increasing their buying and renting of property during the current economic recession. I drove through an Industrial Estate in Glasnevin recently and identified at least 6 churches of various sizes that have rented warehouses in that one Estate.
There are also a number of new churches being constructed across the country, including one large building complex in Firhouse, Dublin. (There's actually a hilarious thread over on the A&A forum if you like ear-wigging in on ill-informed gossip tinged with xenophobia. So far they're blaming it on the recession, on Americans, and, rather bizarrely, on some poor group of Filipinos that have no connection with Ireland whatsoever!
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055660864 ) 1
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Yeah, it's appalling that the millions of churches out there can't even pick names that are totally unique isn't it? It must be very confusing.
I had thought the penny would have dropped when someone posted a video of the groundbreaking where all the 'Filipino' pastors looked remarkably occidental. 0 -
Yeah, it's appalling that the millions of churches out there can't even pick names that are totally unique isn't it? It must be very confusing.
I had thought the penny would have dropped when someone posted a video of the groundbreaking where all the 'Filipino' pastors looked remarkably occidental.
So I don't have to toil in their sugar mines?0 -
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I see from the video about the new place in Firhouse that it is being built in a way that is both ignorant of sustainable building practice (concrete and steel all over) and does not even encourage sustainable use (e.g. enormous car park). In other words, it's a typical new building in Ireland.
I understand that this church does not want to put itself on the fringes of Irish life, but the reservations I have written above somewhat cheapen Christian rhetoric about presenting an alternative to mainstream Euro consumer culture.
The car park will be a requirement of planning permission. Basically you have to provide at least one parking space for every five seats inside the building. I've had many hours of meetings with architects and council officials over that particular issue and our own church.
As for the building materials, it all comes down to two issues:
a) Money. Churches are rarely in a position to spend huge amounts of extra cash on materials - so concrete, glass & steel are the cheapest way to go.
b) Selling the property on. A growing church will most likely, at some stage in the future, need to get rid of its property and buy or build something bigger. Therefore, while we may love unique ecclesiastical architecture like the Rock Church in Helsinki, it makes more sense to construct a building that can easily be sold on for light industrial or warehouse use. Big concrete and steel boxes work best for this.0 -
Didn't know that - fair enough. So unsurprisingly it's the government's fault.The car park will be a requirement of planning permission. Basically you have to provide at least one parking space for every five seats inside the building. I've had many hours of meetings with architects and council officials over that particular issue and our own church.
As for the building materials, it all comes down to two issues:
a) Money. Churches are rarely in a position to spend huge amounts of extra cash on materials - so concrete, glass & steel are the cheapest way to go.
b) Selling the property on. A growing church will most likely, at some stage in the future, need to get rid of its property and buy or build something bigger. Therefore, while we may love unique ecclesiastical architecture like the Rock Church in Helsinki, it makes more sense to construct a building that can easily be sold on for light industrial or warehouse use. Big concrete and steel boxes work best for this.
a) this church doesn't appear to be short on money - see the recording studio
b) sure it's already practically a mega church. I doubt they'll ever need a bigger one.0 -
Didn't know that - fair enough. So unsurprisingly it's the government's fault.
a) this church doesn't appear to be short on money - see the recording studio
The Church in question has been smart in their finances. I understand that they bought 11 acres of land in Firhouse when prices were low, built a load of apartments and sold them when prices were high, and so have been able to finance the construction of the building. (Even though they're still inexplicably going on about American money & Filipinos in the A&A forum
) However, I think the costs of using different materials would be much larger than the likes of a recording studio.
A megachurch used to be a congregation with regular weekly attendance of 1000 or more. However, such churches are two-a-penny nowadays, so apparently a church has to run 2000 to be classed as a megachurch. VCF is a long way short of that yet.b) sure it's already practically a mega church. I doubt they'll ever need a bigger one.
I understand that when VCF bought their previous premises in Westmoreland Street they were told that they would never outgrow it - so I wouldn't bet against their having to relocate in the future.0 -
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stevejazzx wrote: »Can't imagine that the consequence of this big 'Mega' church will turn out to be anything more than a cosy pathway for American style evangelizing. As we all know this is primarily achieved by focusing efforts in poorer areas and or/ minority classes. Once the congregation is sizable enough (with a well trained/brainwashed majority) then outside forces will have a far harder time trying to penetrate it leaving the men who control it with access to greater power in the community. Invariably some 'Haggard' type character appears who is lauded as a saint until eventually we find that he has been corrupted by ridiculous position that he was never ready for to begin with. Absolute corrupts ab.... ah you get the point. That's a worse case scenario I suppose. Perhaps they'll act in non business type way and spread their message peacefully and without prejudice.:)
What goes around comes around. 'American-style' evangelising (I've avoided your American-style spelling with the letter 'zee') was actually introduced to the Americas by Irish Presbyterian immigrants from Ulster. A bit of historical research also reveals that Irish traditional music was the forerunner of the musical abomination now known as Southern Gospel music.
Sociologically, it is true, evangelical Christianity is initially more attractive to those lower on the socio-economic scale. After all, the well-to-do tend to think they've got it all together and don't need God - which is probably why atheism tends to be a white, middle-class thing.
However, there is also an observable phenomenon known as 'redemption lift' where those who join such churches display economic upward mobility. This is because the application of Christian principles by a committed Christian (as opposed to the nominal variety) actually make them better employees, thus earning promotions and more job opportunities. Also they tend to abstain from spending their money on things that are non-productive and which reinforce poverty (cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.). Therefore the second generation in such churches tends to be much more middle-class.
This is why you often find churches with posh worshippers (the children or grandchildren of the people who joined the church at the beginning) stuck in areas where the population are much rougher and poorer. Ironically this often tends to make the church more cosy and less evangelical, leaving a vacuum in which a newer church will come into the same area and start a new congregation that reaches the poor etc.
This phenomenon of 'redemption lift' can be seen in entire denominations. Both the Methodist Church and the Salvation Army began as aggressive evangelistic churches that were hugely attractive to the very poorest in society. However, within a generation or two both became largely middle-class organisations with the accompanying respectability and became much less 'edgey'.
Sorry for rambling - this is an area where I've done a lot of research and teaching, so I tend to get carried away.
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So you could say that us atheists should be thanking the evangelisers for creating the conditions necessary for future generations of atheists?
Anyway, all seriousness aside, I tend to like churches. Certainly far better to see more churches going up than more apartments. Along with the car park requirements is there any statutory amount of greenspace that has to be allocated does anyone know? That'd be nice too. 0 -
So you could say that us atheists should be thanking the evangelisers for creating the conditions necessary for future generations of atheists?
Actually you are correct, if we are talking the kind of atheism by choice of most posters here rather than the nasty enforced atheism of Communist regimes. It is fascinating to look at which countries were first to develop the kind of tolerant pluralistic societies where slavery is abolished, where atheism can thrive, where various minorities are tolerated, where gays and others are protected against persecution and discrimination, and where women's emancipation and rights develop.
There are a few exceptions, but a clear pattern emerges. Those societies with a lengthy history of Christian influence on their culture generally developed such tolerance soonest. Interestingly this is much more pronounced in regard to Protestant versions of Christianity. Not that Protestantism is inherently more tolerant, but because its fragmentation into different denominations, and emphasis on private interpretation of scripture, means one monolithic religious institution cannot rule the roost. This is why Galileo had to get his Discourses in Two New Sciences published in the Netherlands rather than Italy.
So, you get the following general pattern in regard to tolerant pluralistic cultures developing:
1. Cultures that were influenced by multi-faceted forms of Christianity (eg Northern & Western Europe & colonies of the same).
2. Cultures that were influenced by monolithic forms of Christianity (eg Southern Europe and the Balkans).
3. Cultures that were predominantly influenced by non-Christian religions and ideologies.
The really funny thing is that, here in Ireland, both atheism and evangelicalism can expect to make gains in a more multicultural, pluralistic, secular culture. Many atheists rejoice in the end of Roman Catholicism's 'moral majority' and cultural dominance, but that opens the door for many more of the so-called 'American-style' churches that seem to drive posters on the A&A forum to new heights of vitriol and bile. Separation of Church & State - you got to love it! :pac:0
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