liability of provoked dog

marley007

Hi,
I need a bit of advice, i have a 9 month old akita who is kept on my property by an electric fensing system, the problem is children keep entering my property and teasing my dog who in turn barks and goes for them now lucky enough every time they've done this she has not been able to get to them in time but eventually she will. other than this she a well mannered dog and isn't aggressive, but what happens when she eventually does attack them while their provoking her while trespassing on my property! Thanks

peasant

Unfortunately, it doesn't look good in that case. Especially not as the Akita is covered under the dangerous control of dogs act.
The electric fence may work to keep her in, but obviously it isn't working to keep undesirables out. You need to put up a proper fence ...both to make sure that she can't get out, but also to have a clear barrier to your property so that the "tresspassing" argument carries more weight.

Durga

While talking to the parents could be futile, I would still do it for the simple reason that you made them aware of the situation and keep a record of the time and date, as well as those times when the children enter your property. Also put up a Beware of Dog, Enter at Your Own Risk sign.

It's terrible when people have to resort to these measures to safeguard their own private property but you need to cover yourself in the event of an incident.

Unfortunately the nicey, nicey approach, appealing to people's sense of decency and reasonableness just doesn't hold much sway anymore

adser53

like peasant said Marley, you'll have to put up a proper fence or put her in a run. regardless of akita's being under the control of dogs act (or whatever it's called) if any dog got hold of a child and did any damage I'd imagine you'd be liable and the dog would be destroyed. I've an akita too and know they're very hardy dogs so also imagine what would happen if she ran through the electric barrier? She wouldnt go back through it too easy and would be free to roam and may get knocked down, nabbed by the warden or catch the little gits that are provoking her. You've got to improve on the security I'm afraid,

Sigma Force

Agree, while elec. fence is better than a dog getting a whack from a car or whatever if there are people coming up to the dog antagonising her it's a diff kettle of fish.

Proper strong high fencing is needed for that kind of pooch, they are gorgeous dogs but solid fencing will help in many ways. It will stop people being able to annoy the dog, stop undersirables from seeing what kind of dog you have as there are some people going around stealing pb pooches sadly.
It will cut of visability for the dog so that if the kids walk by unless she's staring listening at the fence she won't even give them a second look.

It's important also because you don't want your dog getting into a habit of barking or being fearful of people, not yours or the dogs fault she's being antagonised some people are just eejits but parents won't see it that way if a kid gets hurt.

In the mean time until you can get a more solid fencing up I'd keep the dog in and supervise the dog when outside to avoid anything school will be starting soon again so hopefully the brats will be out of the way by then.

marley007

Thanks for the advice, gonna have to fence off the place really as i dont want to get rid of her, talking to the parents is a complete waste of time because they let the children run riot and dont care what they do. ok its off to the co-op i go!

ISDW

I think fencing is the only way to go. I'd also be careful of putting certain signs up, as I have heard previously - on forums, so it may not be 100% - that if you put a sign up that intimates the dog is vicious, if anything happens, even on your land, you will be responsible for having a vicious dog!

I think you can put signs up that say things like: Dogs wandering free, please close the gate, stuff like that, but even Beware of Dog, Enter at Own Risk could be problematic.

Durga

It's a really frustrating situation. I've seen it myself, toddlers climbing 10ft walls to get into someone's back garden to tease the dog then falling off the wall and hitting their head off concrete :rolleyes: As well as making surre the dog is secure I'd also suggest putting some used car oil or something anywhere the kids might come in contact with it and let them get it on their clothes, shoes etc and the parents won't be so impressed.

The Big Red Button

marley007 wrote: »

Hi,
I need a bit of advice, i have a 9 month old akita who is kept on my property by an electric fensing system, the problem is children keep entering my property and teasing my dog who in turn barks and goes for them now lucky enough every time they've done this she has not been able to get to them in time but eventually she will. other than this she a well mannered dog and isn't aggressive, but what happens when she eventually does attack them while their provoking her while trespassing on my property! Thanks

I'm sorry, but you're basically saying that if you do nothing, sooner or later a child will be savaged by your dog? And what your concerned about is your legal liability in the matter?

I get that the kids are brats, but could you honestly live with a young child being scarred for life, when you could have easily prevented it? I mean, you can foresee what will happen, it's not like it's something happening totally out of the blue.

You chose to keep an Akita, and that's fine. But you have to take responsibility for it! Kids are going to be kids, peer pressure etc. If you weren't prepared to pay for unexpected costs - such as putting up proper fencing - then you probably shouldn't have gotten that particular dog.

laceyl

I dont think its fair at all that you should be held responsible if ther dog bited them after they trespass on your property and provoke your dog.

I cant stand it when people say children will be children, its not their fault. It IS they have brains and surely their parents have told them not go into other peoples property especially to provoke a dog.

Its like saying when people break into zoos and get bitten by a tiger that its the tigers fault, no it isnt those people shouldnt be in there, if someone wallaced into your house would you just sit there or would you punch them? its the same for animals only they cant punch so they use their defense mechanism their mouth.

You are responsible enough to keep your dog locked in your garden thats all you should have to do imo. I would get a sign made and stick it on the gate saying "warning guard dog may bite". Surely then it cant be your fault if they wander in and get bitten they were warned. And if theyre old enough to be out by themselves they are old enough to read.

Durga

Exactly. The OP is not not suggesting that he couldn't care less if something happened a child but he has every right to be concerned about what happens on his property. He sounds reasonable, especially by the fact he's here asking for advice and willing to take it on board by putting in place greater measures to ensure nothing untoward happens.

Unfortunately, this is indicative of a wider problem in our communities. It's not up to the OP or any neighbour to have to babysit other people's children when the parents clearly don't care where they are, what they're up to or who they are annoying, be it animals or people.

looserock

chatterpillar wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you're basically saying that if you do nothing, sooner or later a child will be savaged by your dog? And what your concerned about is your legal liability in the matter?

I get that the kids are brats, but could you honestly live with a young child being scarred for life, when you could have easily prevented it? I mean, you can foresee what will happen, it's not like it's something happening totally out of the blue.

You chose to keep an Akita, and that's fine. But you have to take responsibility for it! Kids are going to be kids, peer pressure etc. If you weren't prepared to pay for unexpected costs - such as putting up proper fencing - then you probably shouldn't have gotten that particular dog.

what chatterpillar said.

I would like to add that scarring would be the least that might happen.

In answer to the op's question, you would be liable no matter what the circumstances.

edit to add, and now that you've posted you're knowledge of the potential problem you would be looking at criminal charges.

star-pants

Hang on- criminal charges? Back up a little- Yes it's a serious situation and the OP is aware of this. They're lookin for advice so they can sort it and just want to make sure where they stand. A stronger security is needed, a warning sign put up and the parents warned to cover yourself. Also would suggest maybe some training so that you yourself can have better control over your dog.

kildara

I agree with ISDW in relation to the wording of signage; if you put up a sign that says "Beware of Dog", "Warning, Dog at Large" etc, you are advertising that people need to beware of the dog, or are warning them about your dog, indicating you agree that your dog may be a problem.
If you are going to put up a sign (and I think you should becasue then the delinquents entering your property cannot claim they didnt know there was a dog there), it needs to say something like "Do not feed dog", or even a simple "Dog in Yard".

I know you say its pointless talking to the parents but at least if you do they are aware of the situation.
It might also be good to ring the Gardai and tell them these kids keep coming onto your premises and annoying the dog and see what they suggest - again, at least a record will be made of it in case something does happen in the future - the kids cannot then say it was their first time in there.

wexford202

Keep an eye out for the kids and tell their parents that you are concerned they are provoking the dog. You can but a video camera and make sure you have evidence of them taunting the dog.

No matter what breed of dog it is, it is animal cruelty

Jinxi

I may get slated for this but why can't you just buy one of those soft velcro muzzles for when he is outside?
Calling the gardai is a good idea just to ask their advice. they will make a record of the complaint, and if you have a video recorder then record what kids are comiing into the yard teasing him. You HAVE to talk to the parents before recording them(child protection laws).

cruizer101

chatterpillar wrote: »

savaged by your dog

At what point the did OP indicate the dog would savage a kid, you are just trying to exagerate things here to get across your point. I'm not saying I know what thye dog will do but considering it is generally mild mannered whats to say when it catches up with kids it will just bark and growl a bit.

chatterpillar wrote: »

Kids are going to be kids

I'm sorry but this does not wash with me, if the kids are old enough to be coming in teasing a dog, they are old enough to know its wrong. What to say building a wall would stop them, they might just see it as more of a challenge.

The kids are entering into someone elses property, at what point does it become thier fault and not the owners, when you have a 12ft barbed wire fence?

Anyway, i can understand OP why you might not want to have to put up a fence but it might be the best option. Maybe even a hedge just to clearly mark the boundaries and block the view.

cruizer101

Jinxi wrote: »

You HAVE to talk to the parents before recording them(child protection laws).

Even if it is on your own property? Seems a bit strange but I don't law.

wexford202

cruizer101 wrote: »

Even if it is on your own property? Seems a bit strange but I don't law.

You do not need permisson if the camera is in a fixed permission on your own property.

You can pick them up super cheap from aldi or lidl at times. You wouldn't need to spend a fortune but it might be worth getting. Espically when you have a mother saying to you 'my child would never do that'

Crazyivan 1979

I think a fence might be easiest way of keeping them out, you could also put vandal grease on top to deter them from climbing over.

I think if you set up a camera just focused on your back garden you wouldn't be filming the children, just your garden.

And talking to the guards would be a very good idea also.

wexford202

Crazyivan 1979 wrote: »

I think a fence might be easiest way of keeping them out, you could also put vandal grease on top to deter them from climbing over.

I think if you set up a camera just focused on your back garden you wouldn't be filming the children, just your garden.

And talking to the guards would be a very good idea also.

If a camera is positioned in the right place will will catch most o your garden and fene where the kids are getting in.

The vandal grease although I wuld be tempted to use it if I were you would cause more hardship to you. You can be sued by a parent if there child hurts themselves in your garden even if theywere entering without your permission.

I know someone who was building a house and when a man tried to break in that evening he got cut bad off the fence. He sued the guy for thousands and got it.

The guards I am sure will give yo the best advise on what you can legally do.

seamus

"Provocation" is irrelevant because the case is against you, not the dog. So provocation cannot be used as a defence.

It's perfectly legal to film your private property and anyone who is incidentally caught on camera, child or otherwise.

However, as above, no film will save your dog from the chop, it may only get the judge on your side who may impose a lesser fine.

Best options are a large run for the dog and to keep an eye yourself. When the children enter your garden, come out with a chainsaw and scare the **** out of them, or have a hose handy and soak them. If they keep coming home soaked to the skin, the parents will kill them.

Actually, scratch the chainsaw, you could be charged with threatening behaviour.
If you can't be bother with the hose, install sprinklers and switch them on whenever you see the kids in your garden.

PetrovthePrat

Not sure of the wisdom of posting "Beware of Dogs" signs. I was recently advised that by putting one up you are admitting your dog poses a risk to people. "Dog on the loose" or "Dog roaming free" are more appropiate. Or so I've been told.

dee o gee

God whats the world coming to, when a burglar cuts himself trying to break into somebodys house, and can actually sue the guy he was trying to rob. :rolleyes:
I think the automatic sprinkler idea is good, also the chainsaw idea sounds good except id say there may be a few legal problems with that.:D If you put up cameras but didn't actually connect them up it might act as a bit of a deterent, also I often thought about getting one of those little motion sensors so the cameras will follow them around, but it might freak the neighbours a little.:D

To whoever suggested putting a velcro muzzle on the dog, the velcro (closed in) kind are only designed to be worn for short periods of time, eg- at the vets, they should never be left on when the dog is unsupervised, because when a dog is wearing one it cannot pant (which is a dogs way of cooling down), so a dog can quickly overheat in hot weather, also a dog cannot drink with one on.
If using a muzzle for longer periods, then you'd use a basket muzzle (not closed in) because the dog is able to open its mouth freely and drink.

marley007

ok so many things to reply to....firstly my dog isnt aggressive, shes still only a pup and is playful the problem is because of her size she could knock one of these kids down while chasing them off the property. coincidentially just met a friend whos a garda and i explained the situation and he said because their trespassing and i've so many measures in place to keep the dog in that its basically their own fault....also asked him about the beware of dog sign and he said your only informing them not actually admitting to anything! now as well as the electric fensing system i've ordered big metal gates to go up, all other sides are secured by walls so after this i'm at my wits end! thanks for all ye're advice it muchly appreciated oh and to the guy who pretty much called me irresponsible for getting her just letting you know that i had her in a completely fensed off garden but had to move home so its only been an issue a few weeks and i'm doing everything in my power possible to keep both my dog and those kids out of harms way! but i appreciate your view anyway!

wexford202

marley007 wrote: »

ok so many things to reply to....firstly my dog isnt aggressive, shes still only a pup and is playful the problem is because of her size she could knock one of these kids down while chasing them off the property. coincidentially just met a friend whos a garda and i explained the situation and he said because their trespassing and i've so many measures in place to keep the dog in that its basically their own fault....also asked him about the beware of dog sign and he said your only informing them not actually admitting to anything! now as well as the electric fensing system i've ordered big metal gates to go up, all other sides are secured by walls so after this i'm at my wits end! thanks for all ye're advice it muchly appreciated oh and to the guy who pretty much called me irresponsible for getting her just letting you know that i had her in a completely fensed off garden but had to move home so its only been an issue a few weeks and i'm doing everything in my power possible to keep both my dog and those kids out of harms way! but i appreciate your view anyway!

I have a staffie and I have double fenced the garden and put up electric gates and cctv as I am afraid someone would rob him.

It was very expensive but well worth it when I see him running around with his football.

To me you seem alot more responsible than many pet owners and the muzzle thing to me on my own property (whatever about being in public) is a big no no. The pup will only have to eat one or two of them and then they will learn their lesson! :P:P:P

What ages are the kids out of interest?

scooby man

i had that same problem told the parents and it stopped rapitly...

marley007

The Kids are about 8ish i'm guessing! But the problem gets a tad worse now i'm not being a biggot or anything of the sort and please dont start giving out but the kids are travelers and just last week decided to rub a car with stones while the family were on holiday, severly out of control by any1s measures! see the cost doesnt bother me as long as my dog is happy and safe but with lunatic daredevil kids like this on the loose shes far from safe, shes kept on our property unless i'm walking her but that doesnt seem to stop them from coming in and provoking her!

marley007

ha ha dey wouldnt get very far with her she doesnt like ppl she doesnt kno so wouldnt go easily with them, neway they live up the road so dont think the parents want much hassle or they'll get ****ed off the land, was just talking to a solicitor whos a friend and told him the situation nd basically they have no ground to stand on as their trespassing.....shes only guarding the house.....like guard dogs! so i'm happy enough i have the backing of a garda nd a solicitor, will put up gates neway tho as well as beware of dog sign!