Should Responders and Practitioners carry their respective equipment as per CPGs

5500

Just to throw a spanner in the works (sorry if ot op) But after completing my Emt course,a few of the lad's were asking about carrying o2 ect in there bag's in the car,obviously displaying sticker.

We were discouraged from personally carrying any drugs with us whatsoever apart from aspirin,they just said it was too messy and they didnt even carry drugs themselfs as AP's


EDIT* Posts moved here from O2 thread, NGA

civildefence

eireal wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works (sorry if ot op) But after completing my Emt course,a few of the lad's were asking about carrying o2 ect in there bag's in the car,obviously displaying sticker.

We were discouraged from personally carrying any drugs with us whatsoever apart from aspirin,they just said it was too messy and they didnt even carry drugs themselfs as AP's

Fair enough but it's up to the individual at the end of the day. Administering drugs is hairy in any scenario but I was always told never to withhold O2.

Hooch

eireal wrote: »

Just to throw a spanner in the works (sorry if ot op) But after completing my Emt course,a few of the lad's were asking about carrying o2 ect in there bag's in the car,obviously displaying sticker.

We were discouraged from personally carrying any drugs with us whatsoever apart from aspirin,they just said it was too messy and they didnt even carry drugs themselfs as AP's

Firstly you are required by healtha and safety to display a sticker showing that the vehicle is carrying a compressed gas.

Secondly I know the two A/Ps that instructed you (PM ), and I know for a fact both carry a drugs bag. Every A/P I know carrys their two bags home after every shift, the drugs and trauma bags. Nothing is messy with EMT drugs. No mixing, everything is predefined with measured spray for GTN or an autoinjector for epi. Again, once CPGs are followed there can never be a problem.

If you think about it.....why carry asprin and not the rest. Asprin can be just as dangerous in the wrong hands.

Elessar

I don't mean to get technical here but according to PHECC:

The 3rd Edition CPGs may be implemented provided:

1 The Practitioner is in good standing on the PHECC Practitioner's Register. The Responder maintains current certification as outlined in PHECC Education & Training Standards.
2. The Practitioner/ Responder is acting on behalf of an organisation (paid or voluntary) that is approved by PHECC to implement the CPGs.
3. The Practitioner/ Responder is authorised by the organisation on whose behalf he/she is acting to implement the specific CPG.
4. The Practitioner/ Responder has received training on, and is competent in, the skills and medications specified in the CPG being utilised.

Maybe I'm getting it wrong but points 2 & 3 seem to indicate that PHECC don't want you practicing your CPGs (and using O2 etc.) if you're not "acting on behalf of" an approved institution. So joe soap who did a private EMT course and is not working on an ambulance or (on duty?) with a vol org should not be assisting at a car crash he has just come across? Seems a bit ridiculous!?

Hooch

Elessar wrote: »

I don't mean to get technical here but according to PHECC:

Maybe I'm getting it wrong but points 2 & 3 seem to indicate that PHECC don't want you practicing your CPGs (and using O2 etc.) if you're not "acting on behalf of" an approved institution. So joe soap who did a private EMT course and is not working on an ambulance or (on duty?) with a vol org should not be assisting at a car crash he has just come across? Seems a bit ridiculous!?

Your training institute is the organisation your are working on behalf of........

Just logged into PHECC website and saw that on the 3rd edition. This is misleading and im sending the office an email to see the story with it. It is the first time i've see it to be honest and I know its not correct.

Elessar

nice guy always wrote: »

Your training institute is the organisation your are working on behalf of........

Just logged into PHECC website and saw that on the 3rd edition. This is misleading and im sending the office an email to see the story with it. It is the first time i've see it to be honest and I know its not correct.

Training institute would make sense. But the way it's worded now makes it sound like you must be a member of a statutory/aux ES or a voluntary org to practice the CPGs. It's on page 13 of the CPGs themselves aswell.

PHECC :pac:

Hooch

Elessar wrote: »

Training institute would make sense. But the way it's worded now makes it sound like you must be a member of a statutory/aux ES or a voluntary org to practice the CPGs. It's on page 13 of the CPGs themselves aswell.

PHECC :pac:

PHECC'ers:D

No it was never like that so unless it was a change added with the third CPGs (much like the soon to be revised patient trannsport rules). It thats the case.....nice guy will not be so nice at the next meeting:mad:. We'll see what the email states.

maglite

I will say that at the ISIC conference the point was made during the Good Sam talk that there may be a cause to stop given the code of ethics and such.

Someone else may correct me if I'm mistaken, but i do belief the comment was made by a high ranking person in PHECC. I felt at the time thou it was in relation to HSE employees but that was not stated.



Elssar that was my impression of what was written down. That you had to be a member of a CPG approved organisation and be allowed practice. The point was made and I have discussed it with various people including some Pheccers that the private courses leave you in iffy ground if your organisation will not recognize the course and I was still under the impression that these people doing the EMT course cannot practice at that level without the backing of an organization,

NGA will you copy over the reply when you get it. It would be interesting to hear the official answer as apposed to our opinions. ALso if this grows a bit more could we look at a thread split? his would have merit as an individual topic.

Bruce11

nice guy always wrote: »

Your training institute is the organisation your are working on behalf of........

I believe you may well be wrong there...

The training institute will only cover you on their insurance whilst you are a student with them. After you qualify the cover will cease to exist. Working on behalf on means for reward or performing a duty with the knowledge and permission of the body in question.

As for CPG's; the PHECC have a list of approved bodies whom may use the CPG's as practice and whether they are allowed s the 2nd or 3rd edition guidlelines.

Hooch

Bruce11 wrote: »

The training institute will only cover you on their insurance whilst you are a student with them. After you qualify the cover will cease to exist. Working on behalf on means for reward or performing a duty with the knowledge and permission of the body in question.

Rights lets look at this logically so. (and for those practitioners qualified long enough, remember that PHECC have often "slipped" things into publications by "accident")

By that logic, if a Paramedic is off duty (and unlike AGS once they clock off they are off) then if they come across an incident they cannot asume patient care??

If a member of OMAC, who is just out for a drive comes across an RTC.....they cannot asume patient care??

If an employee of CHC (IRCG Rescue Helicopters) comes across a cardaic chest pain....they cannot assume patient care??

All above would NOT be practicing under their organisations guidelines as they would be off duty as sorts. If thats the case then pre hospital care in the state is in crisis.

Are we all just to walk on by?? By the logic above dont you think if PHECC, had in fact announced that, there would be public uproar.........much like stopping EMTs completing patient transfer (O wait.....they went back on that)

Bruce11

To assume patient care, treat the patient and maintain life is vastly different from someone going to their car and having a full medication bag and oxygen for this instance.

HSE staff could ring into control and be placed on duty if necessary. Having some equipment is all well and good but where do people stop? Oxygen, splints, blankets, drugs, etc

Hooch

Bruce11 wrote: »

To assume patient care, treat the patient and maintain life is vastly different from someone going to their car and having a full medication bag and oxygen for this instance.

HSE staff could ring into control and be placed on duty if necessary. Having some equipment is all well and good but where do people stop? Oxygen, splints, blankets, drugs, etc

HSE staff can......but normaly people cannot. How often do Paramedics off duty turn up at an RTC?? As apposed to IRC, OMAC, CD etc etc

Now your seperating patient care/treatment to use of euipment. You cant seperate both.

Talking C-spine control......part of CPG, talking SAMPLE history.....part of CPG, Maintaining airway.....part of CPG, use of suction.....part of CPG, use of O2 NRM.....part of CPG.

They are the same. There is no difference for a practitioner in patient care/treatment with or without equipment. It is still part of your CPGs.
You cannot seperate them when it suits.

Tango Alpha 51

civildefence wrote: »

I'd be carrying it in the back of the van, happy enough to put stickers in the window and that. I'm compelled to get it as I came across a nasty RTA recently and the driver had a haemo-pneumo, took a while for the ambo to arrive and the lad needed O2 pronto.

Quick question how did you know the pt had a haemo-pneumo ?.

Tango Alpha 51

Bruce11 wrote: »

To assume patient care, treat the patient and maintain life is vastly different from someone going to their car and having a full medication bag and oxygen for this instance.

HSE staff could ring into control and be placed on duty if necessary. Having some equipment is all well and good but where do people stop? Oxygen, splints, blankets, drugs, etc

Have to agree with this post. Where would people draw the line. Next people will be looking for warning lights in their POV's. :D

ivabiggon

ye i was wondering that also, in 16 years experience I've only come across it maybe 8-9times, out of that maybe two were correctly diagnosed by me on sceen, as they died later! the rest were queried, not sure what happened after i dropped them to hospital i never follow up on patients. it takes alot of diagnostics to really know and diagnose and you as a EFR could tell all this on the side of the road,????after your limited training and experience. hmmm!

Elessar

buzzman wrote: »

Have to agree with this post. Where would people draw the line. Next people will be looking for warning lights in their POV's. :D

You would draw the line at your level of training and qualification, and level of resources at your disposal. Nothing wrong with helping someone in need once you are trained.

Hooch

ivabiggon wrote: »

ye i was wondering that also, in 16 years experience I've only come across it maybe 8-9times, out of that maybe two were correctly diagnosed by me on sceen, as they died later! the rest were queried, not sure what happened after i dropped them to hospital i never follow up on patients. it takes alot of diagnostics to really know and diagnose and you as a EFR could tell all this on the side of the road,????after your limited training and experience. hmmm!

No one prehospital can diagnose, practitioner or responder. We assess.

And now that you mention it.....how did you know O/P that he was suffering from it? Only practitioners can auscultate.

Hooch

buzzman wrote: »

Have to agree with this post. Where would people draw the line. Next people will be looking for warning lights in their POV's. :D

Do you as a Paramedic carry a kit bag???? Would you be discouraging all practitioners from carrying one??

Elessar wrote: »

You would draw the line at your level of training and qualification, and level of resources at your disposal. Nothing wrong with helping someone in need once you are trained.

+1 Once you follow your CPGs and dont step out from them, I see nothing wrong!

Hooch

Posts moved from O2 thread.

Tango Alpha 51

nice guy always wrote: »

Do you as a Paramedic carry a kit bag???? Would you be discouraging all practitioners from carrying one??



+1 Once you follow your CPGs and dont step out from them, I see nothing wrong!

NGA,
Yes I do carry a kit bag in the boot of my car & no I wouldn't discourage any practitioner from carrying one & as has been stated once you follow your CPG's, you should be ok.

I would question the practice of carrying 02 in your personal car along with validity of Insurance??.

5500

Re the point of acting on behalf of the training institute/college,we were told we were only insured once attending a specific placement rather than the time frame in which our training was taking place.

I would be interested to know how many people do carry kit/grab bags with them and where they draw the line equiptment wise

Hooch

buzzman wrote: »

NGA,
Yes I do carry a kit bag in the boot of my car & no I wouldn't discourage any practitioner from carrying one & as has been stated once you follow your CPG's, you should be ok.

I would question the practice of carrying 02 in your personal car along with validity of Insurance??.

Exactly, follows CPGs = no problem

Once your insurance is informed, as mine is, you are covered provided you have complied with heath and safety of course.

eireal wrote: »

I would be interested to know how many people do carry kit/grab bags with them and where they draw the line equiptment wise

Everything that my CPGs authorise me to use and carry, I have one in my car and one for work.

Tango Alpha 51

NGA,
Like you I have one in the car & in the ambulance but, I take it your an EMT / Paramedic within AGS. Are you saying as per your statement that you carry all the drugs your allowed administer as per your CPG's in your jump bag in your car. If you do & you use them, how are they replaced?. I know that if I give a drug whilst on the ambulance, I have to fill out a drug record sheet, give it & the drug bag to the logistics officer who will then refill the said bag & seal it for the next use

Hooch

buzzman wrote: »

NGA,
Like you I have one in the car & in the ambulance but, I take it your an EMT / Paramedic within AGS. Are you saying as per your statement that you carry all the drugs your allowed administer as per your CPG's in your jump bag in your car. If you do & you use them, how are they replaced?. I know that if I give a drug whilst on the ambulance, I have to fill out a drug record sheet, give it & the drug bag to the logistics officer who will then refill the said bag & seal it for the next use

EMT. I carry Aspirin, O2, Glucose gel, Glucagon, GTN and Paracetamol.

On using a drug (Aspirin, GTN, Glucose and O2 is it really) I complete the PCR and hand over to the crew. I then submit a report to PHECC on my adminsteration. The drug is then replaced by myself in one of the local chemist that has been authorised to supply. O2 is generally swapped by the supervisory Paramedic once it is accompanied by written report from me, CD for CD.

PM sent with full details

Tango Alpha 51

Thanks for that NGA, check your pm

civildefence

buzzman wrote: »

Quick question how did you know the pt had a haemo-pneumo ?.

I'm not a doctor but at the time I diagnosed at least a pneumo. The steering wheel had caused trauma to the pt's chest with an open wound. The patient had laboured breathing so I auscultated the chest and breath sounds were absent on one side. I was later told by a DFB lad that was there that it was a haemo-pneumo afterall so short answer is I didn't know until later.

Elessar

Just found this on their website: "Acting on behalf of an organisation (paid or voluntary) approved to implement Clinical Practice Guidelines (CPGs) is one of the criteria for Practitioners (EMTs, Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics) to administer medications legally in Ireland".

We really need to know what they mean by an "organisation". Assuming it's not including a training institution and you gave O2 or glucose gel to someone you saw lying on the street - you are entering illegal territory? For the sake of everyone I think we need clarification asap.

As far as I was ever aware, PHECC had no legal standing and the implementation of their standards was not compulsory. Unless that changed?

Hooch

Elessar wrote: »

As far as I was ever aware, PHECC had no legal standing and the implementation of their standards was not compulsory. Unless that changed?

PHECC are inacted in law....always have been.

http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=950

civildefence

Elessar wrote: »

Just found this on their website: "Acting on behalf of an organisation (paid or voluntary) approved to implement Clinical Practice Guidelines (CPGs) is one of the criteria for Practitioners (EMTs, Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics) to administer medications legally in Ireland".

We really need to know what they mean by an "organisation". Assuming it's not including a training institution and you gave O2 or glucose gel to someone you saw lying on the street - you are entering illegal territory? For the sake of everyone I think we need clarification asap.

As far as I was ever aware, PHECC had no legal standing and the implementation of their standards was not compulsory. Unless that changed?

I don't see how an approved organisation would come into it. What about the likes of a lifeguard who is also an EMT? PHECC wouldn't come into it.
Remember folks, they are clinical practice guidelines, not rules.

Hooch

civildefence wrote: »

I don't see how an approved organisation would come into it. What about the likes of a lifeguard who is also an EMT? PHECC wouldn't come into it.
Remember folks, they are clinical practice guidelines, not rules.

PHECC think different to us normal folk, and a Practitioner is a whole different ball game from a responder. Think we'll have to see with what PHECC come back with. Wording is very....well as someone put if iffy.

They might be guidelines but practitioners must abide by them. First question is always "did you follow your CPGs?" if something goes wrong.

If the wording is correct, while I am fine to practice with what I do....I would be worried about a hell of a lot of EMTs etc

Elessar

nice guy always wrote: »

PHECC are inacted in law....always have been.

http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=0&tabid=950

Without wanting to get too much off topic, I don't think it is enforceable.

I have heard of mountain rescue teams who, by and large, refuse to work with PHECC because their wilderness EMT grades offer a greater level of patient care (and are not recognised). And I know at least a couple of ambulance companies that operate at events who are not PHECC registered. Wrong? Maybe. Illegal? I doubt it. What law would one be breaking if they called themselves a Paramedic but were not phecc registered? AFAIK it is not a protected title. I am open to correction on that.

Thinking about these "organisations" though, it's a minefield for PHECC. What about guards who are EMTs? Or, as mentioned, lifeguards? Or what about the army paramedics?

civildefence

Elessar wrote: »

Without wanting to get too much off topic, I don't think it is enforceable.

I have heard of mountain rescue teams who, by and large, refuse to work with PHECC because their wilderness EMT grades offer a greater level of patient care (and are not recognised). And I know at least a couple of ambulance companies that operate at events who are not PHECC registered. Wrong? Maybe. Illegal? I doubt it. What law would one be breaking if they called themselves a Paramedic but were not phecc registered? AFAIK it is not a protected title. I am open to correction on that.

Thinking about these "organisations" though, it's a minefield for PHECC. What about guards who are EMTs? Or, as mentioned, lifeguards? Or what about the army paramedics?

From what I've been told, you are welcome to call yourself a paramedic anytime you like, however if you make a balls of something in the field and end up in the dock, you will be tried as a paramedic. Same as if you were to say "i'm a doctor". You would be tried as such. Again i'm also open to correction.

rgnmb

I can't believe how much confusion there is surrounding this...

As previously mentioned:

The 3rd Edition CPGs may be implemented provided:

1 The Practitioner is in good standing on the PHECC Practitioner's Register. The Responder maintains current certification as outlined in PHECC Education & Training Standards.
2. The Practitioner/ Responder is acting on behalf of an organisation (paid or voluntary) that is approved by PHECC to implement the CPGs.
3. The Practitioner/ Responder is authorised by the organisation on whose behalf he/she is acting to implement the specific CPG.
4. The Practitioner/ Responder has received training on, and is competent in, the skills and medications specified in the CPG being utilised.

In order to operate, at your registered level, you must be associated with an organisation authorised by PHECC to implement the CPGs, a CPG approved service provider...

These are listed on the PHECC website, so even if registered and competent, if you are not a member of an organisation on the list, you are not authorised to use the CPGs or drugs within the formulary. This is for very good reasons. You can't have people running around, representing themselves, with no clinical audit, nowhere to submit PCRs, no professional and clinical development and most importantly no clinical indemnity insurance.

While your approved training institution and your CPG approved service provider may be the same, particularly for vols and the statutory services, people taking up private courses with the new training colleges are not allowed to operate unless they are associated with a CPG approved organisation as well.

The titles of prehospital care practitioners, EMT,P and AP, are defined and protected, in Irish law.

Carrying oxygen in the back of the car is not a great idea, unless its fixed down etc...you could get into a pickle if your involved in an accident yourself.

I can't see how the Wilderness EMTs would not want to become PHECC registered practitioners. Being allowed to administer the drugs within the relevant formulary would allow them to provide a higher level of clinical care. While at present, they cannot administer any drug.

What was said at ISIC conference was there was no obligation on practitioners to assist at the roadside, within the code of conduct, however practitioners had a moral obligation to assist if appropriate.

The statutory services have a policy in place, if they respond while off duty, they are considered on duty/covered by their relevant service provider.

Paulzx

The previous post sums up my understanding of Pheccs role. They are a statuatery body and are to pre hospital care providers what An Bord Altranis are to nursing. If you want to qualify and practice you answer to them. End of.

rgnmb wrote: »

What was said at ISIC conference was there was no obligation on practitioners to assist at the roadside, within the code of conduct, however practitioners had a moral obligation to assist if appropriate.
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As regards to intervening off duty you have absolutely no obligation to do so. However, if you do render assistance you are duty bound to remain with the patient until they are handed over to equally or more qualified personnel

rgnmb

Paulzx wrote: »

As regards to intervening off duty you have absolutely no obligation to do so. However, if you do render assistance you are duty bound to remain with the patient until they are handed over to equally or more qualified personnel

Paulzx, as I said previously, and to clarify what I mean, practitioners are under no obligation to assist with something out of work, however a speaker at ISIC reassured practitioners that the threat of legal action against them is negligible, once they operated within their CPGs etc, however it was also mentioned that practitioners did have a moral duty, to assist in a situation....and I suppose they do, when life is in danger.

Bruce11

The PHECC CPG's are there to be used for best practice but read the small print as published and it stipulates by a CPG approved body.

On the aspect of the Gardai, I know they are all trained in OFA on entering the service at Mentalmore but what is the insurance cover in relation to members practicing above that? Some specialist units have it and no doubt they are trained up as a risk assesment detaisl that it would be of benefit. They are primarily there for their colleagues in case of injury/trauma during the course of their duty.

Question is what about treating a member of the public instead of calling an ambulance? Even if an ambulance is called and something were to go wrong will the powers that be in AGS cover your ass?

djtechnics1210

Bruce11 wrote: »

I know they are all trained in OFA on entering the service at Mentalmore

This must be a new thing.
When i was down there nobody got anything to state they were a qualified ofa.
We covered cpr but that was about it.
We didnt cover slings/choking or anything like

Tango Alpha 51

Civildefence,
Can i just ask are you an EFR or EMT?

civildefence

EFR with PHTLS, awaiting the EMT course.

Tango Alpha 51

civildefence wrote: »

I'm not a doctor but at the time I diagnosed at least a pneumo. The steering wheel had caused trauma to the pt's chest with an open wound. The patient had laboured breathing so I auscultated the chest and breath sounds were absent on one side.] I was later told by a DFB lad that was there that it was a haemo-pneumo afterall so short answer is I didn't know until later.

civildefence wrote: »

EFR with PHTLS, awaiting the EMT course.

So why did you do the highlighted, considering its not a skill for EFR's.

civildefence

buzzman wrote: »

So why did you do the highlighted, considering its not a skill for EFR's.

It is part of the PHTLS course that I did in England. Inspect, Palpate, Auscultate.

boomer_ie

rgnmb wrote: »

The titles of prehospital care practitioners, EMT,P and AP, are defined and protected, in Irish law.

This is incorrect they are not protected titles, PHECC will confirm this. I have had discussions with the PHECC director in the past and he has confirmed they have no plans (at the time I was talking to him) to make the titles protected.

In order to be a protected title a sanction for using a title when not allowed to use that title must exist. No such sanction exists. The legislation only gives a definition of an EMT, Paramedic and Advanced Paramedic, this does not make the title a a protected title.

If you do hear someone telling you the title is protected then ask them under what legislation the title is protected.

coolmoose

civildefence wrote: »

It is part of the PHTLS course that I did in England. Inspect, Palpate, Auscultate.

You're still not entitled to perform this assessment being an EFR...be careful with using skills learned on other courses.

I have my ACLS done but am not allowed to implement some skills or administer medications taught on that course as a Paramedic.

Back on topic, I carry a kit in my own car, including O2, and i display warning symbol on rear of vehicle, and I am insured to carry it. My kit contains everything I can use to implement my CPGs, and it will always be stocked as such. I also use this kit when providing services to CPG approved voluntary organisations.

Presonally I would hate to come across something off duty and not have the equipment I need to provide patient care...not much point calling yourself an EMT/P/AP then if all you can do is stand around and wait for ambulance to arrive.

rgnmb

I did not mean to infer that the titles were “protected titles”. This is currently not the case.

PHECC intends to be assumed into the group of health profession regulators which feature in the Health and Social Care Professions Act (2005), the titles of the various health care professions become “Protected Titles” under this act, and a penalty exists for their misuse:

Professional Titles and Offences
79.—(1) A registrant of a profession designated in section 4(1) is
entitled to use the title specified in the applicable paragraph of that
section for that profession.
(2) In addition, a registrant of a profession designated in section
4(1) is entitled to use any title for the time being prescribed under
section 95(3) for that profession.
(3) A registrant of a profession designated by regulation under
section 4(2) is entitled to use any title for the time being prescribed
under section 4(6) for that profession.
(4) A person shall not use a title referred to in any of subsections
(1) to (3) unless entitled by virtue of this section to use that title.

80.—(1) A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to deceive,
he or she—
(a) contravenes section 79(4),
(b) falsely represents himself or herself to be registered in a
register maintained by a registration board under this
(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment
for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.

This however will take some time.

At present the titles are defined in SI No. 139 of 2008 and SI No. 166 of 2008. If someone introduces themselves as a PHECC Registered Practitioner, EMT, P, and AP, to a patient, they gain consent to treat based on this understanding.

“The titles of prehospital care practitioners, EMT, P and AP, are defined and protected, in Irish law.”

If the person is not in fact PHECC registered, and performs an assessment/intervention under these auspices the consent is not informed, and not valid.

This could therefore be subject to a criminal investigation under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act (1997), or a civil case under the tort of trespass/battery.

boomer_ie

rgnmb wrote: »

“The titles of prehospital care practitioners, EMT, P and AP, are defined and protected, in Irish law.”

If the person is not in fact PHECC registered, and performs an assessment/intervention under these auspices the consent is not informed, and not valid.

This could therefore be subject to a criminal investigation under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act (1997), or a civil case under the tort of trespass/battery.

First of all where are you getting the above quote as you have just agreed that the titles are in fact not protected.

With regard the non-fatal offences against the person act this would not apply if the patient has consented for you to treat them verbally or under implied consent (ie where unconscious)

Currently PHECC registration is basically a quality mark, it does not mean that you cannot treat someone if your not PHECC registered.

rgnmb

boomer_ie wrote: »

First of all where are you getting the above quote as you have just agreed that the titles are in fact not protected.

The quote is from my original post.

Note the difference "Protected Title" and "protected, in Irish law"

I demonstrated how misuse can lead to a criminal investigation...

boomer_ie wrote: »

With regard the non-fatal offences against the person act this would not apply if the patient has consented for you to treat them verbally or under implied consent (ie where unconscious).

It would apply in the circumstance I described, where someone has deliberately misled a patient into an understanding that they are a PHECC registered practitioner, and gained consent on that premise. The consent would be invalid in the example I described.

boomer_ie wrote: »

Currently PHECC registration is basically a quality mark, it does not mean that you cannot treat someone if your not PHECC registered.

I never suggested that. One can not however, claim to be a PHECC registered practitioner, use a relevant CPG, or administer medications as authorised for a specific level within a CPG, without in fact being a PHECC registered practitioner.

And as I previously mentioned PHECC are in the process of being assumed into the regulatory bodies mentioned in the Health and Social Care Professions act, in which case the practitioner levels will become “Protected Titles”.

This is off the original topic, could I suggest if you want to discuss titles etc that you start a new thread.

civdef

Are PHECC not one of the quangos due to be subsumed back into their parent department?

boomer_ie

civdef wrote: »

Are PHECC not one of the quangos due to be subsumed back into their parent department?

Yes they are indeed, I am wondering if this is leading to people thinking its being assumed into the whatever act or other (is this actually written somewhere?)

as for the difference between "protected title" and "protected in Irish law" whats the difference????

once again, EFR, EMT, P and AP are not protected titles in any shape or form at this point in time.

Hooch

rgnmb wrote: »

This is off the original topic, could I suggest if you want to discuss titles etc that you start a new thread.

backseat modding and all that.........

boomer_ie wrote: »

Yes they are indeed, I am wondering if this is leading to people thinking its being assumed into the whatever act or other (is this actually written somewhere?)

as for the difference between "protected title" and "protected in Irish law" whats the difference????

once again, EFR, EMT, P and AP are not protected titles in any shape or form at this point in time.

Back on topic please folks