Graduate Entry medicine fees (if they get introduced next year!)

spottymuldoon

The government is getting ready to introduce tuition fees. How would this affect the GEM fees? Would we stand to pay the full 25k for the year? That would mean getting into 100k debt on fees alone, nevermind living expenses. Would banks still be up for giving that type of loan? I am planning on starting GEM in the 2011-12 years so I will be subject to these fees, which I think we can safely predict, are coming in. How would this affect the GEM applications?

Also, who gets these tuition fees? The government or the college?



"THE DEPARTMENT of Education has instructed third-level colleges to put new students on notice they may be liable for new fees from next year.

Students will be told of their potential liability for fees when they register for the first time next month.

Most third-level students already pay a registration charge of about €1,500.

In a letter circulated by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) on behalf of the department, college presidents have been asked to inform all new students, as part of their induction, that third-level fees may be reintroduced in the 2010 academic year.

The department hopes this move will help to avert any legal challenge by students to a new fees regime.

Minister for Education Batt O’Keeffe has said current third-level students would not be liable for any new loans or fees regime.

However, he insists the new fees or loan regime will apply to those beginning college next month.

The department has been advised that any legal challenge to the new fees regime is less likely to succeed if students are alerted to the possibility of increased charges at registration.

The legal view is that it is not possible to impose a new regime on existing students who had a reasonable expectation of proceeding through college without the burden of new charges.

Next month the Cabinet is expected to consider a 100-page option paper circulated to Ministers by Mr O’Keeffe.

While the Minister supports a new student-loan scheme, no option – including a return to “upfront” fees – has been ruled out until the Cabinet signs off on the issue.

Last night USI president Peter Mannion said it was “appalling that this Minister has pre-empted his colleagues’ feedback just weeks before they are due to submit their views on the reintroduction of third-level fees”.

In his letter, HEA chief executive Tom Boland tells college presidents how the Minister has circulated a review of available options to members of Cabinet in advance of possible future Government consideration of policy decisions on the issue.

“Incoming students in the 2009/2010 academic year should now be on notice that in the event of a Government decision to introduce a new form of student contribution from a future point in time, any such arrangements are liable to apply, from that time, to students who enter higher education this year.”

Mr Mannion said the letter suggests that the Minister has already made up his mind to reintroduce fees without hearing the views of Cabinet.

He said it was grotesque that thousands of students, as part of their induction to college, would be burdened with the anxiety that they could be facing crippling debt in the near future."

glaston

Are you saying that people who currently study graduate entry medicine don’t have to pay fees?:eek:

You already got 4 years free undergrad education from the government and you are entitled to more? Why?

This doesn’t apply to other courses does it?

taram

glaston wrote: »

Are you saying that people who currently study graduate entry medicine don’t have to pay fees?:eek:

You already got 4 years free undergrad education from the government and you are entitled to more? Why?

This doesn’t apply to other courses does it?

I assumed they paid the standard rate for repeating a level 8 course, around 6k rather than the full whack that foreign students and the like pay of around 17k+.

spottymuldoon

glaston wrote: »

Are you saying that people who currently study graduate entry medicine don’t have to pay fees?:eek:

You already got 4 years free undergrad education from the government and you are entitled to more? Why?

This doesn’t apply to other courses does it?

The fees are 25 k per year. The goverment pays half I believe and the rest you have to a loan for, along with living expenses.

Bicycle

The only people currently entitled to fee exemptions are those persuing an undergraduate programme for the first time, and who have been living in Ireland for three of the last five years and who are entitled to be ordinarily resident in Ireland.

Therefore today's announcement will not affect those doing programmes that require candidates to already have a degree, or even those who already have a degree and want to go back and do another undergraduate degree.

The articles are badly worded, it should refer to undergraduate fees. Anyone who has done post-graduate courses since the fee exemptions were created knows that fees for such courses are and remain incredibly high.

It was a myth that we had free university in Ireland. People were only exempt from tuition fees and only then under certain conditions.

Even if you did a degree in science and then went back to do med via the CAO, you'd still have to pay tuition fees.

Amnesiac_ie

As far as I know the tuition fees for the GEM courses are around €25,000 but currently the government pays half of that for Irish graduates. I think given the state of public finances and the never-ending demand for medical degrees it's quite likely that the government will stop contributing to GEM tuition fees. My other half was planning on applying for a GEM course next year but is much more reluctant to do so now with the possibility of tuition fees jumping from €50,000 to €100,000.

Carsinian Thau

Bicycle wrote: »

The only people currently entitled to fee exemptions are those persuing an undergraduate programme for the first time, and who have been living in Ireland for three of the last five years and who are entitled to be ordinarily resident in Ireland.

Are you sure about this?

It's just that I know two people who wouldn't fulfill the 3 of the last 5 years thing but still get free tutition fees.

spottymuldoon

Amnesiac_ie wrote: »

As far as I know the tuition fees for the GEM courses are around €25,000 but currently the government pays half of that for Irish graduates. I think given the state of public finances and the never-ending demand for medical degrees it's quite likely that the government will stop contributing to GEM tuition fees. My other half was planning on applying for a GEM course next year but is much more reluctant to do so now with the possibility of tuition fees jumping from €50,000 to €100,000.

I am thinking along the same lines. There is no doubt in my mind that the free fees will be banished starting from next year. Therefore, anyone wanting to do GEM in Ireland will instantly be out of pocket to the tune of 100,000 euro. That's not including living expenses, which would come to about 40k for 4 years. So the first question has to be, what bank is going to give a loan like that? Secondly, do you WANT a 100k+ debt hanging over your head when you graduate... it's a bit much now in fairness.

Compare that to the GEM courses in any other country. The most you'd be paying in Australia would be 50,000 Australian Dollars. In the UK, you are looking at a mere 3k per year.

There is no way I'd be getting myself 100,000 in debt to do GEM in Ireland. I'd simply apply abroad and keep doing so until I got in.

Bicycle

Carsinian Thau wrote: »

Are you sure about this?

It's just that I know two people who wouldn't fulfill the 3 of the last 5 years thing but still get free tutition fees.

Strange. I had a friend turned down for free fees this year because they were living in the US for 3 of the last 5 years. Its becoming impossible to fund the place because of the shortage of part-time work. They may have to rethink going back to college.

I've even checked a University website to see if I'd made a mistake (entirely possible) but it confirms what I've said.

Boethius

spottymuldoon wrote: »

The government is getting ready to introduce tuition fees. How would this affect the GEM fees? Would we stand to pay the full 25k for the year? That would mean getting into 100k debt on fees alone, nevermind living expenses. Would banks still be up for giving that type of loan? I am planning on starting GEM in the 2011-12 years so I will be subject to these fees, which I think we can safely predict, are coming in. How would this affect the GEM applications?

I emailed the HEA on this back at the start of the year and while they couldn't give me any official information, they were of the opinion that students will end up paying a capped fee, say 5k a year no matter what course they register for. This they thought means that it would be very unlikely that the GEM courses would need to be completely funded by the student even if fees are re introduced as the balance is 13 odd thousand.

So what I got from that is that for the sake of 120 students a year (600k), we hopefully won't be asked to put ourselves in even more debt as we are already making a substantial contribution.

I can't imagine having to stump up the full fees, it would be crippling.......

P.S This was one guy's opinion off the record he seemed to say and it was back in April so obviously there's a lot of scope for change from this line and we don't know what else Batt is prepared to do to fund his substantial teacher's/lecturer's pension.

Carsinian Thau

Bicycle wrote: »

Strange. I had a friend turned down for free fees this year because they were living in the US for 3 of the last 5 years. Its becoming impossible to fund the place because of the shortage of part-time work. They may have to rethink going back to college.

I've even checked a University website to see if I'd made a mistake (entirely possible) but it confirms what I've said.

Both of them would be EU citizens if that makes a difference?

Bicycle

Apologies, I DID make a mistake.

You have to be normally resident in an EU state for 3 of the last 5 years and be an EU citizen.

I was getting hung up because my friend is an Irish citizen but is only home for the last two years from the US.

Sorry again for any confusion.

Carsinian Thau

Bicycle wrote: »

Apologies, I DID make a mistake.

You have to be normally resident in an EU state for 3 of the last 5 years and be an EU citizen.

I was getting hung up because my friend is an Irish citizen but is only home for the last two years from the US.

Sorry again for any confusion.

Ah right, that would clear things up.

Becuase these two wouldn't be Irish as it happens.

What if your friend waited the extra year? Would they be entitled to free fees then? Assuming the government hasn't done away with it before then?

Bicycle

I'm pretty much convinced there will be an announcement about undergrad fees sooner rather than later.

If they're going to doctor the Children's allowance, they'll announce fees as well.

My friend is investigating working part time and studying part time. Lots of deep thought processes going on. I'm providing coffee but no recommendations

spottymuldoon

A thought should be spared for all the GEMers who recieved offers this year and were excited about starting GEM in september. Looks like they'll have to cough up full fees next year. Maybe if they knew that they wouldn't have applied in Ireland.

Boethius

spottymuldoon wrote: »

A thought should be spared for all the GEMers who recieved offers this year and were excited about starting GEM in september. Looks like they'll have to cough up full fees next year. Maybe if they knew that they wouldn't have applied in Ireland.

We don't know how the introduction of fees are going to affect GEM yet even though you seem pretty sure. Your loose comments aren't very helpful . Please have a bit of consideration for us that are worried enough about this already.

In my opinion GEMers would have had to have been notified before this as we have had to put loans in place already which would then have to be re-organised and any change in this would leave the government open to all sorts of legal action. Giving us a letter at registration isn't the same thing.......

suspectpackage

Boethius wrote: »

We don't know how the introduction of fees are going to affect GEM yet even though you seem pretty sure. Your loose comments aren't very helpful. Please have a bit of consideration for us that are worried enough about this already.

In my opinion GEMers would have had to have been notified before this as we have had to put loans in place already which would then have to be re-organised and any change in this would leave the government open to all sorts of legal action. Giving us a letter at registration isn't the same thing.......

I've only heard about this entire thing after reading this thread.

Do you trust the government?

Even this announcement has an underhand feel to it. Making sure that students applied and accepted places on courses and THEN telling them, "By the way, you might have to pay full fees next year". That tells me that this was premeditated from the start and we will certainly see full fees in effect from next year onwards.

If I was a GEMer in ireland and had accepted a place recently, I'd be considering leaving it for a year and applying to the UK/Australia and see how that goes. Paying 100k out of your own pocket is just a bit too much.

Trusting this government to give the GEMers a good deal is a bit wishful imo.

We know the colleges are going to keep the fees at 25k per year, we know that for a fact. We can speculate on how much the government will put towards that. If I was a betting man, I'd be betting that the government will pull out completely and the GEMers will have to get even bigger loans...:(

Boethius

You're right, I don't really trust the government.

However the courses were arranged by the government in order to facilitate graduates and what incentive would the likes of RCSI have to not charge their full fees of ~45k that non EU students have to pay if the government withdrew from the process? that would make it ~200k in fees.

This is a totally different mess in my view to that of standard undergraduate fees and don't think the same assumptions can be made........... he says hopefully

eagle_&_bear

If fees are brought back in then the Government (and the banks) are going to have to come up with some sort of UK styled bank/student-loan system where you pay it back bit by bit over the years after qualification.

While I dont fancy paying back 100,000 euro, it is inline with what happens in America and their system works.

It also has to be a reality (not that i like it mind you) that there is only so much money in the pot. most of us would have recieved 'free' third level at some stage - first degree. Its common place if you go sit any masters degrees that you pay for them, 6,000 plus.

On this note, whilst the GEM is still an undergrad degree which you can only sit having attained a 2.1 in your other undergrad, it is additional an qualification and we (well certainly I) cant see reason in expecting to get this course free aswell.

While I would in no way turn down a 50% subsidy in the fees, if that goes, then it goes. The fact fees are brought back in would not deter me from following my dream.

Like anyone else, I dont fancy paying 100,000 but if i have to, i will. I'll obviously look at the ucas system aswell and see if that is a viable option for me! (at 29 with 2 undergrad degrees and a BL degree), I'm not sure i fancy uprooting to the uk for 4 yrs but I'm not against it either.

should money be the prevailing factor in following your dream?

suspectpackage

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

If fees are brought back in then the Government (and the banks) are going to have to come up with some sort of UK styled bank/student-loan system where you pay it back bit by bit over the years after qualification.

While I dont fancy paying back 100,000 euro, it is inline with what happens in America and their system works.

It also has to be a reality (not that i like it mind you) that there is only so much money in the pot. most of us would have recieved 'free' third level at some stage - first degree. Its common place if you go sit any masters degrees that you pay for them, 6,000 plus.

On this note, whilst the GEM is still an undergrad degree which you can only sit having attained a 2.1 in your other undergrad, it is additional an qualification and we (well certainly I) cant see reason in expecting to get this course free aswell.

While I would in no way turn down a 50% subsidy in the fees, if that goes, then it goes. The fact fees are brought back in would not deter me from following my dream.

Like anyone else, I dont fancy paying 100,000 but if i have to, i will. I'll obviously look at the ucas system aswell and see if that is a viable option for me! (at 29 with 2 undergrad degrees and a BL degree), I'm not sure i fancy uprooting to the uk for 4 yrs but I'm not against it either.

should money be the prevailing factor in following your dream?

No way. I'm still doing medicine, just not in Ireland. I just don't trust the government any more. I'll be trying to get in to the UK, where it is 3k for the first year and free for the remainder. I prefer that to getting a 100k+ loan over 4 years, which I would bet my house on being the case next year. I just feel sorry for the GEMers starting this year. They've been screwed by the government.

eagle_&_bear

oh i hear ya!

I hadn't really given a move to the UK any thought but its been on my mind the whole day in work so I'll look into it

does anyone know (off hand) what uni's in UK accept gamsats or, conversely what uni's dont accept gamsat?!?

suspectpackage

eagle_&_bear wrote: »

oh i hear ya!

I hadn't really given a move to the UK any thought but its been on my mind the whole day in work so I'll look into it

does anyone know (off hand) what uni's in UK accept gamsats or, conversely what uni's dont accept gamsat?!?

This is a good site.

http://www.medschoolsonline.co.uk/index.php?pageid=11