And so the college fees debate starts again...

Hot off the press: click.

And we thought that we'd get in by the skin of our teeth this year...

p1akuw47h5r3it

-JammyDodger- wrote: »

Hot off the press: click.

And we thought that we'd get in by the skin of our teeth this year...

HAHA u robbed this from the UCD forum:pac:

I robbed it and stuck it in the trinity forum;)

DanDan6592

DanDan6592 wrote: »

HAHA u robbed this from the UCD forum:pac:

I robbed it and stuck it in the trinity forum;)

Shhh... But, yah, I got it from the TCD forum, so I robbed it from you.:pac:

jumpguy

It has to be done...but I feel a little hard done (if I get to third level, hopefully) by as my brother and sister will have gotten through college feeless but I'll be saddled with debt the second I leave. I hope the system isn't ****ty like that disaster...the HSE. This is something they CAN'T afford to **** up. What are the fees for TCD? I heard they were manical like...15,000 of something like that.

randylonghorn

Well, O'Keeffe has been dropping major hints for months that whatever is going to be introduced will impact on this year's cohort in 2010-2011, and that students registering now should bear that in mind, rather than complaining next year that they didn't know.

Obviously his senior civil servants have suggested that that message needs to be formalised.

And if that's the best argument USI can put up, they won't make much of an impact!

jumpguy wrote: »

What are the fees for TCD? I heard they were manical like...15,000 of something like that.

I wouldn't take much heed of the "full fees" as levied on non-EU students (for example) as any kind of guide to what fees will be set for you lot.

For example, on part-time courses, which Irish / EU students must pay for anyway, the non-EU fees are usually approx. twice the rate for Irish / EU students.


I would imagine that if fees are re-introduced, they will be set centrally, and will either be a set amount for each broad type: e.g.
Arts & Social Sciences
Science & Engineering
Medical & Vet. Medicine
etc.

... or a fairly tight range will be set for each and colleges can set their own fees within that range, and compete if they wish.

anonymous_joe

I'd be amazed if fees don't kick in this year.

The whole concept of free fees was that people who previously hadn't gone to college would go has been proven incorrect. It's sad though, cos now other people suffer.

Stev_o

Any chance of incentives for those doing Engineering, Science or Computer courses? Surely they idea should be to encourage what is most needed.

randylonghorn

anonymous_joe wrote: »

The whole concept of free fees was that people who previously hadn't gone to college would go has been proven incorrect.

That's not entirely accurate, or, perhaps better said, it's a bit too general a statement.

Looking at all the studies by Pat Clancy and the various other researchers, I think it could be strongly argued that a lot more people went to college because of the Free Fees Initiative ... and especially from (much as I detest the classifications!) the "lower middle-class".

What has been shown very clearly though is that the FFI didn't suddenly transform the participation rates from those sectors of society which tradionally had extremely low third level participation ... working class / unskilled / semi-skilled.

Tbh, it was never going to be, the "this will fix everything!" blurb was a typical piece of political spin.

That particular issue needed to be addressed much more holistically, as there are many factors involved, e.g.

Financial ... just eliminating fees was never going to be sufficient to entice people to college where there simply wasn't the money to pay for all the other bits: accommodation / travel / books etc. There have been a plethora of schemes introduced since FFI to tackle this, but even at that their impact is limited by other issues, e.g.

Educational Realistically, preparation for participation in third level doesn't start with the CAO form ... it could be argued that it starts with the pre-school child, but it certainly depends greatly on the individuals educational experience throughout formal schooling ...

... and ...

Cultural issues / expectations ... can be divided broadly into three sub-headings: family / school / peer group.

Family ... obviously, support and encouragement from parents and families is one of the reasons why any youngster thinks seriously about college / works towards it. In families with no history of third level attendance this is often missing, or the whole idea can be treated with a mix of fear and mockery (mind you, there are also parents / families with no such college attendance history who are determined that the next generation will aim high, including aiming for college.)

School Some schools will have very few students even thinking of third level; these are often the schools where just achieving a good standard of literacy, numeracy and general education for all their students is an uphill battle. Many of these schools will not be in a position to offer a broad range of honours subjects, and there is no inherent expectation in the school culture that third level is a normal goal to set your sights towards. In saying that, I do not wish to sound critical of these schools; many of them achieve miracles for their students in other ways.

Peer group I have been in certain areas of Dublin and other large towns / cities where those aspiring to or attending third level are routinely subjected to mockery, verbal and even physical abuse by their peers ... esp. lads. "He's going to f_ing college, he must be a f@ggot!!" would be fairly typical of what you will hear.


Add one final factor (that I can think of right now, I'm probably missing ones!) ... the full employment and the whole construction boom in particular of the "Celtic Tiger" discouraged many young people from this background to even think about college. Construction was a traditional employment route within these areas / families; it hit all the "macho" targets; for those who were ambitious / bright, there were plenty of apprenticeships, long seen as the ultimate educational aspiration; and those who completed these could expect to be paid as well as many graduates. Indeed, even unskilled and semi-skilled construction workers were earning very well.

ironictoaster

Damn, I thought O' Keefe forgot about this :pac:. The only thing that annoys me about the introduction of fees is that once the whole financal crisis is over, the government will never reverse back to the way it is at previous years with no fees.

randylonghorn

creggy wrote: »

... the government will never reverse back to the way it is at previous years with no fees.

No, unless some party in government needs a big boost coming up to an election.

One could be ultra-optimistic ofc and hope that someone would eventually devise a scheme better than the present one, which certainly has flaws.

Damn, I really should go to bed ... that level of optimism, even skeptical optimism, about any Irish government is definitely a symptom of sleep deprivation!! :pac:

bythewoods

I was registering earlier, and my Tuition fees for the year (Which I didn't have to pay obviously) were about €7400.
Cheers. That means for the 5 years AFTER my first year of medicine I'll have to pay, eh, way more than I can afford.

ironictoaster

bythewoods wrote: »

I was registering earlier, and my Tuition fees for the year (Which I didn't have to pay obviously) were about €7400.
Cheers. That means for the 5 years AFTER my first year of medicine I'll have to pay, eh, way more than I can afford.

Holy ****e!

You better become sort of freelance doctor when you finish college, you gonna need every penny you get!

Razthor

Mr O’Keeffe and the whole government is a greedy bunch of basterds. As if I can actually pay that extra money, I barely get by as it is.

Ricky91t

Talk about a load of bull$hit,Why on earth would this country want more people perfectly capable of getting a good education,Getting a job and then paying tax on it lining up in the bloody job seekers allowance que cause they can't afford and don't want to be in debt.

So they make €6k-€7k a year off student's,Think of how many extra people are now not going to go to college and looking for a job is pointless,They'll claim jobs seekers allowance and therefore,Even on the reduced amount will probably get about €10k a year,Anyone else see the flaw with all those new people claiming that the countries income isn't going to me at all,So all they are going to do is make money to pay off the possible students who can't afford it.

Mr.O'Keeffe you're an idiot.

sock puppet

Ricky91t wrote: »

Talk about a load of bull$hit,Why on earth would this country want more people perfectly capable of getting a good education,Getting a job and then paying tax on it lining up in the bloody job seekers allowance que cause they can't afford and don't want to be in debt.

So they make €6k-€7k a year off student's,Think of how many extra people are now not going to go to college and looking for a job is pointless,They'll claim jobs seekers allowance and therefore,Even on the reduced amount will probably get about €10k a year,Anyone else see the flaw with all those new people claiming that the countries income isn't going to me at all,So all they are going to do is make money to pay off the possible students who can't afford it.

Mr.O'Keeffe you're an idiot.

Thing is if you look at the news any time the government announces some cut, you hear people saying that this will actually cost the state more because of job losses, dole etc. They have to make cuts somewhere and a loans scheme will ensure that the vast majority of students will be able to go to college.

Ricky91t

sock puppet wrote: »

Thing is if you look at the news any time the government announces some cut, you hear people saying that this will actually cost the state more because of job losses, dole etc. They have to make cuts somewhere and a loans scheme will ensure that the vast majority of students will be able to go to college.

IS it guaranteed there will be a loan scheme though?The first thing I found when I google student finance was a wiki entry,Saying the loan thing hasn't has a good response..

Isaac702

Ricky91t wrote: »

IS it guaranteed there will be a loan scheme though?The first thing I found when I google student finance was a wiki entry,Saying the loan thing hasn't has a good response..

Nothing is guaranteed at this point. Our government is keeping us all in the dark for a good reason. They simply done want to provoke a response.

I have a question though. They are informing us that fees may be required after 2010 however will we know what these fees will be before we sign the contract in September.

Personally I would take issue with it if I didn't know the full extent of it.

phasers

Batt O'Keeffe is a jerk

somethingwitty

Fair enough if they told students before registering what to expect, but does anyone else agree that telling us to expect "some form of student contribution" is INSANE???!!! Thats so ****ed up how do they think they can actually get away with that! That can't be allowed to get away with that, something seriously needs to be done. Something radical. Frenchie style:pac:

ZorbaTehZ

Me being a pedant, but we never had free fees :pac: You pay 1500 (1900 in NUIG last year) in fees at the beginning of each new term which was more than almost every other EU country except for the UK...

p1akuw47h5r3it

ZorbaTehZ wrote: »

Me being a pedant, but we never had free fees :pac: You pay 1500 (1900 in NUIG last year) in fees at the beginning of each new term which was more than almost every other EU country except for the UK...

Does the majority of the EU have free fees (well the major countries anyway France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg).

I know the UK doesnt.

Because if other countries in the EU have fees and we still ended up paying more money, urpoint is truly shocking.

If not, it's not as shockin.

Secoundrow

Isaac702 wrote: »

Nothing is guaranteed at this point. Our government is keeping us all in the dark for a good reason. They simply done want to provoke a response.

I have a question though. They are informing us that fees may be required after 2010 however will we know what these fees will be before we sign the contract in September.

Personally I would take issue with it if I didn't know the full extent of it.

Youve got a point

Sure their going to warn us we will be liable for fees but we are still entering third level blind
we have no idea of the amount we will be required to pay or by what method
so isnt there a loop hole there for legal challange of it:rolleyes:

Stev_o

What's the story with student loan scheme then? Is it going to be a government financed loan or just a regular loan with student stipulations with the banks?

For me personally i think the introduction of fees at this moment in time is just ridiculous if we were officially out of the recession then i really wouldn't mind but seriously come on money is tight as it is even with college fees. No student wants a giant loan stuck on their back before they even leave college. It's a hindrance and it does contribute to a stagnating economy. Mean come on we'v been through a whole peroid of bank debts in banks and what not and the government think that the safe option to go is for people aged 17/18 to get loans??? It's madness, it just doesn't work.

somethingwitty

Does the majority of the EU have free fees (well the major countries anyway France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg).



Yes most do!!

randylonghorn

Isaac702 wrote: »

They are informing us that fees may be required after 2010 however will we know what these fees will be before we sign the contract in September.

I don't have any inside line to Batt's office, but from following the issue fairly closely in both the public media and elsewhere, I'd go with a fairly certain "no" to that question.

(Mind you, you don't actually sign any contract, but I'm reading that as "before we commit ourselves to the course by registering for first year".)

rhapsody!

That's crazy. The drop-out quantity of 1st years who can't afford to go into 2nd year is going to ridiculously high.

christina_x

rhapsody! wrote: »

That's crazy. The drop-out quantity of 1st years who can't afford to go into 2nd year is going to ridiculously high.

i think i could be one of them...:(

Aoibheann

Maybe I should have stuck with medicine, at least now I wouldn't be facing this!

Worst thing is, I don't even get the year of "free fees" (ie just reg fee) like most of you.. I'm paying full fees this year as I've already done the first year of a different course.. then when fees come in I shall be this -> ;_;

Alas! But it can't be helped. I'd ideally like to get schols in Trinity at some point so here's hoping I can manage to get them and be less screwed money-wise!