FF Seanad Reform

Juxta Dublin

Not sure what you all think of this?

Seems as if the plan is to give graduates seats in the following manner

TCD (1)
NUIG (1)
DCU/UL (1)

Everybody, including ITs (3)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0819/1224252868219.html

Señor Juárez

I question the wisdom of giving Seanad votes to 3rd level institutions whose graduates can barely even spell (and I am not exaggerating here).

Guess FF are trying once again to remove power from those smart enough to disagree with their agenda

I still don't understand why I should get to have a vote for the Seanad just because I went to college.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Dónal wrote: »

I still don't understand why I should get to have a vote for the Seanad just because I went to college.

Because you're more educated, and therefore in a better place to wisely choose a leader for the country?

It's fairly obvious.

Señor Juárez

Let's face it as well, the power behind even three votes distributed between every living graduate of Trinity does not equal a huge amount for an individual. One would hope that the votes would end up being made based on a vaguely overall educated decision.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Because you're more educated, and therefore in a better place to wisely choose a leader for the country?

It's fairly obvious.

It's really not, not nowadays anyway.

Time Magazine

Dónal wrote: »

I still don't understand why I should get to have a vote for the Seanad just because I went to college.

It's not meant to be a second Dáil, it's there to offer expertise that's typically "unelectable" -- it's a good thing to have Shane Ross and Ivana Bacik in the Oireachtas but both were rejected by the electorate at large.

There is an argument for extending the upper-house franchise these days, but in 1937 restricting it to graduates and councillors wasn't the worse idea in the world.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Because you're more educated, and therefore in a better place to wisely choose a leader for the country?

An Taoiseach must be a member of the Dáil, not the Seanad.

Juxta Dublin

Dónal wrote: »

I still don't understand why I should get to have a vote for the Seanad just because I went to college.

Personally I'd double the college representation, at the expense of the panels. The best Senators consistently come from the the TCD/NUI panels.

If you're going to giving everybody a vote for the Seanad, you might as well abolish the thing, as you're only replicating the Dail.

jingx3

Juxta Dublin wrote: »

If you're going to give everybody a vote for the Seanad, you might as well abolish the thing, as you're only replicating the Dáil.

　

Juxta Dublin

jingx3 wrote: »

　

Congratulations, you found two spelling errors, one of which I can't help as I'm writing from a computer in the US. Would you actually like to add anything productive?

Señor Juárez

Other arguments aside, I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to restrict election voting privileges to people who aren't completely stupid. Whether this could be done via intelligence testing or some other system, I don't know, but I feel that qualification to vote should be a privilege, not a right.

(in b4 accusations of unfair representation)

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

jingx3 wrote: »

　

Absolutely pathetic pedantry. Someone should ban this waste of space, I know I got banned for a week for linking Boston to dictionary.com, and that wasn't even in a proper serious discussion like this one.

Cantab.

I can't stand Norris and Bacik.

Ross is bearable.

Our university representatives are an embarrassment.

It's no wonder they want to get rid of them.

Juxta Dublin

Señor Juárez wrote: »

Other arguments aside, I think it makes a hell of a lot of sense to restrict election voting privileges to people who aren't completely stupid. Whether this could be done via intelligence testing or some other system, I don't know, but I feel that qualification to vote should be a privilege, not a right.

(in b4 accusations of unfair representation)

Well I start by removing the need for referendums for international treaties such as the Lisbon Treaty (If there is indeed such a legal requirement at the moment) and giving the responsibility and the power to the Oireachtas.

Other than that I'm against such a measure. Suffrage should be universal for the lower house. Although, if were to follow this logic to its conclusion, could one justify a restriction on voting on the basis of age?

Juxta Dublin

Cantab. wrote: »

I can't stand Norris and Bacik.

Ross is bearable.

Our university representatives are an embarrassment.

It's no wonder they want to get rid of them.

Even if you loathe them, they're probably the 3 best known Senators in the country. They give the Oireachtas a minority perspective that would otherwise find it difficult to get elected.

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI

Cantab. wrote: »

I can't stand Norris and Bacik.

Ross is bearable.

Our university representatives are an embarrassment.

It's no wonder they want to get rid of them.

Out of interest, why do you hate Bacik?

Jonathan

Cantab. wrote: »

I can't stand Norris and Bacik.

Ross is bearable.

I don't mind Bacik or Norris, but Ross just annoys me.

Mark200

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Because you're more educated, and therefore in a better place to wisely choose a leader for the country?

It's fairly obvious.

So if I study Computer Science for four years I'm all of a sudden more capable of choosing people to run the country?

Señor Juárez

Mark200 wrote: »

So if I study Computer Science for four years I'm all of a sudden more capable of choosing people to run the country?

Yes, you are, you've proven yourself to possess a level of intellect above a threshold simply by managing to finish a 4 year third level degree.

Kwekubo

Juxta Dublin wrote: »

Not sure what you all think of this?

Seems as if the plan is to give graduates seats in the following manner

TCD (1)
NUIG (1)
DCU/UL (1)

Everybody, including ITs (3)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0819/1224252868219.html

From my reading of that article, the breakdown would be:

TCD (1)
NUI (1)
Everyone apart from TCD and NUI (1)
Everyone (3)

errlloyd

I think its pretty good, even if your vote itself doesn't mean much, if a college as a whole fiercely opposes a certain scheme the figures will be undisputabely published and publicised.

Jonathan

Kwekubo wrote: »

From my reading of that article, the breakdown would be:

TCD (1)
NUI (1)
Everyone apart from TCD and NUI (1)
Everyone (3)

That would be how I would understand it as well.

lucernarian

Not a brilliant breakdown as it stands.

Outside of the merits of reform overall and sticking to that proposal: surely the nui unis would deserve 2 seanad seats, given their student and graduate population compared to either TCD or DCU/UL?? Definitely, the various ITs do not have 3 times as many graduates and students as the NUIs have. Much as it pains me to point out the merits of UCD graduates getting more representation;)

EGaffney

I think it's unfair to group Dublin and NUI together as the "university seats". Dublin has consistently elected high-quality Senators who, whether you agree with them or not, criticise governments of all political hues within the constitutional limits of their office. NUI elects anonymous businessmen, union hacks and pre-Vatican II-style religious conservatives. The Senate is not designed as a democratic body. It is convenient that the government has chosen to reduce the numbers of University of Dublin senators in particular, rather than expanding the senators for other third level institutions at the cost of the Fascism-inspired, gombeen hack-filled panels.

(P.S. It seems that people break for Ross versus Bacik/Norris on very predictable lines! I am a Ross man of course.)

El Siglo

EGaffney wrote: »

NUI elects anonymous businessmen, union hacks and pre-Vatican II-style religious conservatives.

Yes because there are so many "pre-Vatican II-style religious conservatives" on the current list of NUI Senators...

raah!

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Because you're more educated, and therefore in a better place to wisely choose a leader for the country?

It's fairly obvious.

I don't think a knowledge of Physics will help me in any way when it comes to choosing a leader for the country.

Edit: Mark already said this :P. And it seems the economist has cleared matters up somewhat too... oooh sometimes I wish I had never even made this post.

enda1

The Economist wrote: »

An Taoiseach must be a member of the Dáil, not the Seanad.

Yes the Taoiseach must be a TD, but the Taoiseach can fill their minister-ships with anyone from either house of parliament.

AlanSparrowhawk

I think they should break the seanad votes down by faculty.

The different facultys/schools of science/natural science should get 3 votes.
the different medical/dental/vet schools should get 3 votes
the engineering schools should get 3 votes
the arts/humanties schools should get 2 votes
and the CS schools should get 0 votes cos they're dummies.

AlanSparrowhawk

ZWEI_VIER_ZWEI wrote: »

Out of interest, why do you hate Bacik?

http://devore.journals.ie/2004/05/26/whyiwontvoteforivanabacik/

just a thought

Podge_irl

It seems rather pointless to me what way they distribute these seats as long as the Seanad has so many seats filled by the Taoiseach.

Juxta Dublin

enda1 wrote: »

Yes the Taoiseach must be a TD, but the Taoiseach can fill their minister-ships with anyone from either house of parliament.

Except for the Tanaiste and Minister For Finance.

Also, to the posters above, mea culpa, looks like I was wrong on the DCU/UL seats.

EGaffney

El Siglo wrote: »

Yes because there are so many "pre-Vatican II-style religious conservatives" on the current list of NUI Senators...

I agree that I was being vague. On the one hand, I may have meant conservative Catholic journalist Ronan Mullen, or I may have meant Feargal Quinn, Knight of Saint Columbanus (though I thought he was clearly under the "businessman who never speaks out against the government" category).

El Siglo

EGaffney wrote: »

I agree that I was being vague. On the one hand, I may have meant conservative Catholic journalist Ronan Mullen, or I may have meant Feargal Quinn, Knight of Saint Columbanus (though I thought he was clearly under the "businessman who never speaks out against the government" category).

Fair enough I suppose, I didn't vote for them. However, it is unfair to tar them (NUI Senators) with the one brush, that's all. In fairness though the Senate has what, 60 members, 3 from the University of Dublin, 3 from the NUI etc... seriously what are they expected to do, what impact are are they ever going to make? It's a gravy train so it is, regardless of whether a senator adores or abhors the current administration. I'd rather see the most vehement critics of the government in the Dáil than in the senate.

shay_562

El Siglo wrote:

In fairness though the Senate has what, 60 members, 3 from the University of Dublin, 3 from the NUI etc... seriously what are they expected to do, what impact are are they ever going to make?

A former TCD senator has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in the USA for her work for human rights. She was also a President of this country and, while I wasn't alive at the time, Wikipedia assures me that she had an active career pushing a non-populist, liberal agenda from the Seanad (which allowed her to be an independent candidate proposing things that were unpopular but right, such as womens' rights and the legalisation of homosexuality - how often do candidates pushing for minority/unpopular rights get elected to the Dail?) while also getting her foot on the political ladder, a ladder she has since scaled quite effectively.

EGaffney wrote:

On the one hand, I may have meant conservative Catholic journalist Ronan Mullen,

I'd assume you were, since he's frighteningly conservative, even as Catholics go.

Oh, and wrt the "Ross Vs Bacik/Norris" divide, naturally I fall on the side of David Norris, though I do think Bacik is a fine addition to the Trinity senators.

El Siglo

shay_562 wrote: »

A former TCD senator has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom in the USA for her work for human rights. She was also a President of this country and, while I wasn't alive at the time, Wikipedia assures me that she had an active career pushing a non-populist, liberal agenda from the Seanad (which allowed her to be an independent candidate proposing things that were unpopular but right, such as womens' rights and the legalisation of homosexuality - how often do candidates pushing for minority/unpopular rights get elected to the Dail?) while also getting her foot on the political ladder, a ladder she has since scaled quite effectively.

Of course the quantity of 'radical' candidates is extremely low in the Dáil, however when one of two do 'get in' they tend to have a bit of an impact, definately not on Mary Robinson's scale (delighted to see her win the Presidential Medal of Freedom) but still an impact, don't suppose you ever heard of Noël Browne? Or even the impact made by Tony Gregory? The point I was making is that the Seanad as an institution is pretty unnecessary, it's effect on the legislative procedure of Dáil is extremely limited, it should either be given actual veto powers or abolished, just another gravy train for Fianna Fail crooks. We've a fairly unitary system as it is, I would like to see the Seanad actually having an impact on legislation, especially after NAMA, the banks, the economy etc... and the general poor leadership and management led by Fianna Fail.

I'd assume you were, since he's frighteningly conservative, even as Catholics go.

I would agree with you there (speaking as an RC myself), however I don't like his (or anyones' for that matter) religious beliefs or personal 'faith' etc... being brought into it, it's the 21st century it shouldn't still make a difference on whether person is a knob head, fascist freak or not!;)

Oh, and wrt the "Ross Vs Bacik/Norris" divide, naturally I fall on the side of David Norris, though I do think Bacik is a fine addition to the Trinity senators.

Personally I'd rather Bacik even though she is a bit of a 'caviar socialist' as are most of Labour these days, she's a decent senator as senators go. However, there was no way she was ever going to win Gregory's former seat in Dublin Central!:pac: