MSc Software Engineering

Flaccus

This is a long shot, but has anyone done this or taking it up this year.

lacase

I have completed this course. The truth is any Masters is not really worth much despite the hype. It is better than going on the dole, but it won't count for much. You are much better off if you can get a job in the industry. All employer's are really interested in is what is the last technology you worked on not if you have a Masters or even a PhD. By the way UL is as good as any other University and it has nothing to do with the quality of teaching which is excellent. If I had the chance to do it all over again the answer is no I would not bother I hope this helps. :cool:

Flaccus

Thanks for the reply.....some food for thought.

My purpose is to get into academia (teaching, research etc..) though not neccessarily in UL. I'd also see this course as the 1st step in pursuiing a structured PhD as looking at the detailed syllabus in UL and in LERO it seems to be geared towards it. So getting a job in industry would not be my goal. To be honest after being in industry 15 years, I'd like a change anyway, and the upcoming change in the job situation is making this possible.

Anyway, can you tell me how difficult the course was ? How many hours did you have to put in outside classes/tutorials per week on average. I'm doing this course part time and it's 1 day per week with significant study required after that. It runs for 2 years. Also, is the maths element significant ? How good a programmer do you need to be ?

thanks

lacase

Hi in answer to your question maths is an important part of the course. That said if you did 4th year Comp Sys maths and you found them OK then you will be fine. If you don't have a Computer Science degree or a maths background the maths will be difficult. It is a full time course so it does take a lot of time and you have to apply yourself full time writing the mini thesis from June to October.

If you want to do a PhD you would be much better off starting a research Masters and transferring to a PhD. That means any work you do for the Masters can be transfered to the PhD. Otherwise you have to start all over again from scratch. Did you know that 98% of the PhD graduates from the CSIS department of UL over the last few years have to go to the UK to get work and it is the same in other Irish Universities?

If you are thinking about an academic career think very carefully about it. There is no career path for researchers and that is a fact. After 4 years you are out of work. if a University gives you a contact for more than 4 years they have to make you permanent and they won't do that as research is always dependent on external funding. If you want to get a lecturing position they are just not there as students don't want to do IT. If you want my honest opinion don't waste you time.

As you can see I know a awful lot about this and I hope it helps you. If you still want to do this I would strongly suggest the reseach Masters approach rather than a taught one. As I said UL is a good place if you want to do one. You could talk to Norah Power, Jim Buckley or JJ Collins about it amough others. There should be funding available which would give you a small income that you could live on for two years. If you successfully transfer to a PhD you will then get another two years funding. Anway I hope this helps


LC

lacase

Just one other thing regardless of the hype even in a structured PhD the most important element is the reseach and the taught Masters offera you very limited help in that area. Given the economic situation the whole reaseach area is also up in the air. So what is going to happen to Irish reseach centres? A good question to ask is how many graduates from the MSc in Software Engineering got into the Lero PhD program or were even seriously considered? The answer well tell you an awful lot.

LC

Flaccus

Thanks for the information. It does help a lot. And I know 2 of those people you mentioned from years and year ago Spoke to Jim already. I already considered the research option but that would require leaving the job which I am in for another 9 months at least. That is why I was considering the MSc on a part time basis over 2 years which will take me the same length of time beginning this Sept as deferring until Sept 2010 to do it on a full time basis.

My motives for doing it are 2 fold. Primarily it interests me as I have worked in software engineering for 15 years and going back into academia is a refreshing change. Then there is the hope of further study leading to an eventual job, which I had hoped would be in education as this interests me also. As you say doing a research Masters leading to a PhD would be the best route. However this would be a full time endeavour (the masters) and I am currently working full time. I had a look at the structured PhD UL run through Lero which is 4 years, and the 1st year is a taught MSc in Software Engineering. So I would hope if I did well in the part time MSc it would be possible to get into a PhD in UL and complete it in 3 years after completing the MSc. I also see from looking at the Lero site that they have predefined research areas (some of which I am familiar with through where I work) and offer stipends to the value of 100,000 euro over 4 years plus course fees and equipment paid for. I am not sure how many people they took on this year, but one of the directors was keen for me to apply, however the work situation prohibited me.

2 points you make which concern me is obviously the difficulty in getting a permanent position, be it research or lecturing. I had hoped in the next 2 to 5 years that IT would pick up and these positions would open up. There is also VEC's, private colleges, secondary schools as well I suppose. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my behalf.

The 2nd point you make is the mathematical requirements. I haven't really studied maths in nearly 15 years and probably wasn't at 4th year Comp Sys. level when I did (Grad Dip Computing UL). However I'm trying to be proactive here. Looking at the subject Software Engineering Fundamentals which is the only maths type module taught in the 1st Semester on the part time course (I actually have the prime text - Progamming Language Concepts and Paradigms), the maths element doesn't seem too bad though sometimes a bit confusing. I am about 2/3 through the book. And I've backed this up with Grossman's Discrete Mathematics for Computing. I hope that will be enough. There's is probably more difficult maths modules ahead in other semesters.

I've also acquired the other main texts for the 1st Semester (a lot less subjects taught in 1st Semester on the Part Time) - Researching Information Systems and Computing, Information Systems Development, Understanding Open Source Software etc.. None of these seem difficult and alot of IS development stuff I would have done on a practical basis. I guess I've committed myself to this without looking at my goals too carefully

Some people have advised me I'd be better off doing the 10 week Java course in HSI leading to the Sun Java Programmer exam. Or try and self study for the MCSE's.

Flaccus

Thanks for the information. It does help a lot. And I know 2 of those people you mentioned from years and year ago Spoke to Jim already. I already considered the research option but that would require leaving the job which I am in for another 9 months at least. That is why I was considering the MSc on a part time basis over 2 years which will take me the same length of time beginning this Sept as deferring until Sept 2010 to do it on a full time basis.

My motives for doing it are 2 fold. Primarily it interests me as I have worked in software engineering for 15 years and going back into academia is a refreshing change. Then there is the hope of further study leading to an eventual job, which I had hoped would be in education as this interests me also. As you say doing a research Masters leading to a PhD would be the best route. However this would be a full time endeavour (the masters) and I am currently working full time. I had a look at the structured PhD UL run through Lero which is 4 years, and the 1st year is a taught MSc in Software Engineering. So I would hope if I did well in the part time MSc it would be possible to get into a PhD in UL and complete it in 3 years after completing the MSc. I also see from looking at the Lero site that they have predefined research areas (some of which I am familiar with through where I work) and offer stipends to the value of 100,000 euro over 4 years plus course fees and equipment paid for. I am not sure how many people they took on this year, but one of the directors was keen for me to apply, however the work situation prohibited me.

2 points you make which concern me is obviously the difficulty in getting a permanent position, be it research or lecturing. I had hoped in the next 2 to 5 years that IT would pick up and these positions would open up. There is also VEC's, private colleges, secondary schools as well I suppose. Maybe it's wishful thinking on my behalf.

The 2nd point you make is the mathematical requirements. I haven't really studied maths in nearly 15 years and probably wasn't at 4th year Comp Sys. level when I did (Grad Dip Computing UL). However I'm trying to be proactive here. Looking at the subject Software Engineering Fundamentals which is the only maths type module taught in the 1st Semester on the part time course (I actually have the prime text - Progamming Language Concepts and Paradigms), the maths element doesn't seem too bad though sometimes a bit confusing. I am about 2/3 through the book. And I've backed this up with Grossman's Discrete Mathematics for Computing. I hope that will be enough. There's is probably more difficult maths modules ahead in other semesters.

I've also acquired the other main texts for the 1st Semester (a lot less subjects taught in 1st Semester on the Part Time) - Researching Information Systems and Computing, Information Systems Development, Understanding Open Source Software etc.. None of these seem difficult and alot of IS development stuff I would have done on a practical basis. I guess I've committed myself to this without looking at my goals too carefully

Some people have advised me I'd be better off doing the 10 week Java course in HSI leading to the Sun Java Programmer exam. Or try and self study for the MCSE's.

lacase

Regarding the maths a good text to look at is "Foundations Of Computing" by Scheurer, Addisson Wesley. I hate to be discouraging, but I think the Java course or MCSE would be better value. The part time option is OK, but don't have unrealistic expectations. Whatever Mike Hinchy told you how many people with the MSc in Software engineering get accepted to the Lero programme regardless of how well they did last year?


A very important thing you need to understand is if you take a PhD and then a research route that is it as far as industry is concerned, your industry career is over and there is no way back. You will earn carp money and have very limited opportunities that is the reality of academia, it does not matter how good you are. If you do get a PhD and were lucky enough to get a Junior Lecturing position (and that is a very big IF ) you will have to start at the bottom and you will also be older than your peers and you industrial experience will not be of any real value for career progression.


Given the level of effort and cost both personal and monetary involved the rewards are just not there. As for the future, pigs may fly and students may come back to IT! The reality is that Ireland as a location for major software development are long gone. As you know outsourcing is the way it is going we are too expensive to even compete. Is that going to change not with the rise of China and the continued success of places like India. The knowledge economy is also a joke as I told you 98% of the CSIS UL PhD graduates in the last few years had to go to the UK to get work. Is that going to change not with major cuts in research budgets. By the way people will not tell you that, but that is the reality. It is the same position in the IT's (Institutes of Technology) and if you want to teach in a secondary school you need a HDip in education. So if you stand back and look at what the long term career prospects are they are not great. I hope this is a reality check.


The important thing is weigh up the pros and cons realistically consider what you can achieve and go for it. If you would like a Masters as a personal goal then go for it, but don't fool yourself and think it will lead to anything. If it does great, but don't kid yourself about the possibilities. Would I do everything I did again? No way it is a waste of time. I hope this helps I don't want to just put you off but I wish someone gave me a reality check before I started. Anyway what ever decision you make the best of luck with it.

LC

Flaccus

Thanks again for your input. Do you mind me asking...did the MSc help you achieve any career goals at all ?

I haven't actually spoken to anyone about how many people get accepted into the Lero programme for the MSc in Soft Eng. Is it a rarity ? I would have thought assuming there is a research opening, that MSc Softwre Engineering graduates with experience in areas which LERO are actively researching, would have a good chance of entry. For example, I have worked in Globally Distributed Software Development which is one area of research they do. And the taught MSc pretty much covers the 1st year of their PhD programme. I'm probably being naive.

I honestly don't really want to go back into industry anymore so outsourcing of development, project management jobs doesn't bother me. And money isn't a goal for me as I will be debt free within the next 12 months. I think teaching, training or lecturing is what I'd like to do. And can only hope things will get better down the road for these types of positions.

lacase

The Masters is nice to have, but was of no real value at all to me. My point about outsourcing is that the jobs will not be here in Ireland for people to study for them in any great numbers. So don't expect any improvement in the availability of lecturing positions in Comp Sys.
As with all things IT time moves on and we need to as well. Unless you study something like multimedia or music technology and they may well only be the flavours of the month for students to study.

If you are in your mid 30's or early 40's you will be competing with people in their 20's for any junior jobs that are going at a salary level just above a graduate. Academia is the road to no where. A PhD is a waste of time unless you want to join the other CSIS PhD graduates in England and even then you have to ask would they have done better just going straight to industry. UL is a good University and is the same as the rest in Ireland just don't be fooled by the hype that education is the answer. You need good basic IT skills and then it is experienced that really matters not academic qualifications.

I should know I have the qualifications and they are not worth the paper they are written on which is really sad, but the way the world is today. I just feel if I had applied my efforts to getting more particular certification it would have helped my career more. I am just being honest but you did ask!! Just for the record I got excellent results so that is not the problem. I also have a lot of friends in UL who I admire and respect and it is a good place. This is not slag off UL it is just what happens and people are not told the reality until it is too late or find it out for themselves.

LC

Flaccus

Thanks for being honest. What courses do you think you would have taken instead ? I'm certainly taking everything you are saying on board and am considering my options.

Regarding IT skills. Studying for the MCSE might be more worthwhile, especially when I have access to all the online courses and books for free in work, for the time being. So cost would be considerably lower too.

By the way, the maths book you linked to above. I can't seem to find it on amazon or books unlimited.

lacase

I suppose my final word is talk to other people and ask a lot of questions. Find out how many people from the MSc course got on the Lero program and why that was if it was the first year of the PhD? Ask where are the majority of the PhD graduates from CSIS who graduated over the last few years and why are they in England? It was not by choice for a lot of them. Where are the lecturing positions and why are they not there? (Unless in multimedia and music technology). What happens to people who are researchers when they reach 4 years in a position in an Irish University? What is going to happen to 3rd level funding over the next few years? Is there a future in IT research in Ireland?

If you are happy with the replies and honestly want to go for it then best of luck to you and I sincerely wish you every success.

LC

lacase

I am glad to hear you are taking it onboard and I would think MCSE sounds good. There are loads of thing you can look at, but give the Open Univeristy a wide bert it is crap for IT. Any of the professional certifcates are worth pursuing.

The book I got off a friend and is old the details are:
"Foundations of Computing: Systems Development with Set Theory and Logic" By Thierry Scheurer published by Addison - Wesley First printed 1994 ISBN 0-201-54429-6

You will find it in the UL library and you can always just go out and have a look at it. It will give you an idea of the level of Maths that are required.

Anyway the important thing is don't just take my word for things ask questions and then make up your own mind, but be informed and don't just accept glib answers.

LC

Flaccus

Yes, I will ask those questions.

From other people I have spoken to today, it would seem IT lecturing positions in Ireland are rare and always have been....closed shop perhaps. And this will possibly get worse as less students do IT related courses. Just as you were saying. So this obviously puts the value of a PhD in doubt. I guess what I had in mind is perhaps wishful thinking.

I also get the feeling from your posts, that funded PhD's in Lero are rare, or at least very few graduates from the MSc Software Engineering get offered a place. Would that be a fair assesment ? I have asked about this officially so await a reply. But as you said, if there is no real value to having a PhD due to restricive entry into lecturing then it may be a moot point.

MCSE and CCNA is looking good right now. I have to weigh this up against the interest I still have in this MSc (regardless of possibility of PhD afterwards).

Out of curiousity, did you find the MSc very theoretical. I have read through the main texts for the 1st Semester (which on the part time course only covers SE fundamentals, Software Development Paradigms and Philosophy of Research) and found them pretty theoretical with the exception of Information System Development (only because from work experience I could understand the practical side about methods in action and how they differed from formal methods).

Also, was there much practical work (e.g. OOP, UML (didn' think anyone used this) which I see is coming in the 2nd Semester).
Do you need to be a Java or C# whizkid ?

And what exactly is the project about ?

Sorry for so many questions.

lacase

I am glad that you are checking it out and if after you do that you still want to do the Masters go for it. Just so long as you don't have unrealistic expectations as to where it can lead. Which had nothing to do with the quality of the Masters just the way the world is.

As I said it is a good course and UL is a good place with good people running it. It is theoretical, but on a positive note it gives you the power to say to someone with regard to a technology you are unfamiliar with: "What is that?" You will find that it may have a new name, but you will have a understanding of the subject within minutes as you have a large frame of reference to draw from. You don't have to be a java Wiz you do need to understand OO that is important. The project is your mini thesis and preparing your research question, doing a literature review carrying out your research and reporting your results.

Regarding who got Lero Phd funding for the taught PhDs it is better you let UL respond on that one, but there is a very simple answer to it and I am sure you can guess what that it. I hope this helps and as I said talk to other people find out as much as you can and then decide and whatever you do the very best of luck with you studies and I wish you every success. I just hope the information I gave you will be of some help.

LC

Flaccus

Thanks for your help. Yes, the information was very helpful, very helpful indeed. Alot of the stuff on this Msc I would have used in the practical sense - OOD,OOP,Requirements Analysis and a lot of my job was research focused. So I think I would be comfortable with the subject matter. I spent some time learning UML as I hear the course contains a lot of that, and I have been brushing up on my Java. So if I go ahead and do the Msc I think I will be ok. I will be unemployed in 9 months time so I will have plenty of time on my hands for the thesis.

But it boils down to this. Do I spend the next 2 years studying for this MSc part time, and then what ? Getting into academia which is what I aspire to is difficult at best and the value of a pHD is under question.

Or do I start now self studying for the MCSE which will cost me nothing (besides exam fees) and have access to books and courses online, and hopefully complete it within 9 months. Seems more job focused. Not academia focused for sure. But While development jobs, project management jobs are being outsourced, there is still going to be a need for sys admins in small business's and I think MCSE is a good qualification to have. In the time it takes to do an MsC, I could even tag on CCNA, and 1 or 2 other courses.

jacksyhoulahan

Hi guys,
Would anyone have advice on this. I am finishing my grad dip in computing in may. I am considering applying for master in software eng. The reason is I have only one year third level done in IT. my previous degree was not related. Would this make me more employable or would it be better to start working just with grad dip. Would a years work outweigh the masters

Crea

Taught Masters is good to do as the disertation is 50% of the course. Even if you don't do the disertation you will get a post-grad diploma. There is a high drop out rate for part-time courses especially those not finishing the disertation. You can continue the research done for the disertation throught to a PHD.
How much study you will need depends on your own academic ability and the time you have with your other commitments. I reckeon 6 hours a week extra study is needed.
The maths is minimal in the course although there is a new statistics module which wasn't there when my husband did the course (he is dictating these answered to me). The other maths is more like set theory and predicate logic - formal specification.
You don't have to be especially good at programming. What is taught is more design aspect and software quality.

There year my husband graduated there were only 2 graduating with him out of 12 starting. The disertation is by far the toughest part of the course.