Extra shower

roadracer1000cc

Hello all, first post so here goes.
Want to install a second electric shower and know about it not being the done thing.
Insted of installing a 300Euro+ non-priorty unit to lock off the not running shower could i use a Reversing contactor i have left in work from another project. Would wire the ceiling switches through NC contacts on same.
Could add in an RCD, MCB etc but these are already in my consumor unit. Would it be advisable to add these into an enclosure with the contactor??The shower installed at mo is a 9.5kw triton, have looked at a 8.5kw triton for second install.

Many thanks, will welcome any questions or solutions.

Joey the lips

The electrics are for from my remit but would you not consider installing a powershower. Granted you need stored water but a little planning would not be difficult when you have one.

roadracer1000cc

Thanks Joey, trying to avoid the emerson being turned and left on for days. Have people renting in the house, and they cant remember to turn it off.

davelerave

not sure what you have but a 4-pole 63amp contactor can be used (2 n/o 2 n/c) and can be wired priority or non-priority easy enough.do a search.it was discussed here recently.

davelerave

davelerave wrote: »

not sure what you have but a 4-pole 63amp contactor can be used (2 n/o 2 n/c) and can be wired priority or non-priority easy enough.do a search.it was discussed here recently.

on/off for priority or 2 -way for non-priority in addition to isolators.manual control anyhow

Davy

roadracer1000cc wrote: »

Thanks Joey, trying to avoid the emerson being turned and left on for days. Have people renting in the house, and they cant remember to turn it off.

Timer, or an hour boost could be installed. Always more than one option

Randyleprechaun

See the attached diagram for an idea of a simple but yet effective system designed to control 2no showers. The addition of a 40A DP pullcord may be used as further means of local isolation if desired.

davelerave

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

See the attached diagram for an idea of a simple but yet effective system designed to control 2no showers. The addition of a 40A DP pullcord may be used as further means of local isolation if desired.

2+3 are actually priority on your schematic not 1+4.it's a good simple system though
with the addition of isolators

Randyleprechaun

I think 1 & 4 are the priority as they are n/c but anyway you'll get the idea.

davelerave

n/o takes priority.think about it

bertie1

What are you using as your slave switch

Randyleprechaun

A timelag(timer) is ideal as it returns power to the priority shower after a set interval which means the contactor is not left energised without need.

davelerave

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

A timelag(timer) is ideal as it returns power to the priority shower after a set interval which means the contactor is not left energised without need.

on second thoughts you are prob right to call the n/c 'priority'.In an automatic system with a current sensing relay the priority isn't interrupted ,that was my thinking.not much call for this stuff nowadays anyhow:D

Randyleprechaun

No problem Dave, I thought I was correct all right but wasn't going to push it.........it's a good simple system I think anyway, have used it in nearly all houses that i have wired in the past number of years and never any probs.

The regulatory bodies are happy for contractors to use this setup, or at least the body I was with were!!!!!!

Bruthal

davelerave wrote: »

on second thoughts you are prob right to call the n/c 'priority'.In an automatic system with a current sensing relay the priority isn't interrupted ,that was my thinking.not much call for this stuff nowadays anyhow:D

Well i would of thought the n/o contacts in the diagram are more the priority as the switch can interupt the operation of the n/c contacts. But the simple system in the diagram is more of a manual system than priority, because by using a switch instead of a timer you manually select each shower. Good simple setup that, I used it once years ago, exact same minus the timer. The timer is a good addition.

Randyleprechaun

I think everyone is complicating this system slightly. To simplify:

1. The shower connected to the n/c contacts is the priority shower as you just pull the cord and away you go ie. there is always power to this shower unless the timer is pressed.

2. The"non-prioity" shower is the one connected to the n/o contacts as you have to press the timer/time lag switch to energise the contactor(closing the contacts) to get power to this shower.

3. It will return priority to the other shower(connected to n/c contacts) when the timer times out... so therefore I suppose you could call it an automatic priority setup.. all though I suppose by the same token it could be called manual as you have to press the timer etc etc but where do you draw the line between auto matic and manual in such instances.

I don't wish this post to sound like I am making small of your comments but I just want to emphasise that it is a simple, effective system that does what is required. It is also much cheaper than the all in one units on the market.

Bruthal

Randyleprechaun wrote: »

I think everyone is complicating this system slightly. To simplify:

1. The shower connected to the n/c contacts is the priority shower as you just pull the cord and away you go ie. there is always power to this shower unless the timer is pressed.

2. The"non-prioity" shower is the one connected to the n/o contacts as you have to press the timer/time lag switch to energise the contactor(closing the contacts) to get power to this shower.

3. It will return priority to the other shower(connected to n/c contacts) when the timer times out... so therefore I suppose you could call it an automatic priority setup.. all though I suppose by the same token it could be called manual as you have to press the timer etc etc but where do you draw the line between auto matic and manual in such instances.

I don't wish this post to sound like I am making small of your comments but I just want to emphasise that it is a simple, effective system that does what is required. It is also much cheaper than the all in one units on the market.

Well it is very simple, no one argues with that, i`ve used the exact same method years ago now but just with a plain switch to select, and 2 seperate contactors n/o and n/c. But in a true priority setup, if the slave shower is running, and someone goes and starts the priority one, the slave one will stop, and can not be started until the priority one is stopped again, thats what i would of thought is a priority anyway. But thats neither here nor there, it does work perfectly your diagram. Im not sure if thers`s a big price difference though, I was in pricing a priority unit today, 120 euro i think. That has the rcbo for showers as well, the contactor, the current sensor. Any idea how much a changover contactor is? I`ve to do this setup myself at the moment, my second time in 20 years.

davelerave

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well i would of thought the n/o contacts in the diagram are more the priority as the switch can interupt the operation of the n/c contacts. But the simple system in the diagram is more of a manual system than priority, because by using a switch instead of a timer you manually select each shower. Good simple setup that, I used it once years ago, exact same minus the timer. The timer is a good addition.

in fairness to myself i think i was 'technically' correct the first time:D.'priority' means 'taking precedence' afaik which would be the n/o.the n/c could be considered the 'main shower' though as it is normally energized.anyhow its still a good setup

Bruthal

davelerave wrote: »

in fairness to myself i think i was 'technically' correct the first time:D.'priority' means 'taking precedence' afaik which would be the n/o.the n/c could be considered the 'main shower' though as it is normally energized.anyhow its still a good setup

Yes thats what id say, priority would be the one that electrically over rides the other. It may be the secondary shower in the house - ie not the main one. If both showers are switched on, the priority one would be the one thats working.

Ricta

Can anyone explain what would happen in this scenario in both the Priority and non-Priority units available off the shelf?

1st person is having a shower; second person goes into other shower, turns it on, discovers it won't work because other shower is on, walks away leaving the shower switched on, forgets about it and decides to go to work. 1st person turns off their shower.

Now what happens to the 2nd persons shower, will it turn on and run all day?

I'm planning on installing two showers in rented accomadation, want to avoid this possible situation.

Ricta

Bruthal

Ricta wrote: »

Can anyone explain what would happen in this scenario in both the Priority and non-Priority units available off the shelf?

1st person is having a shower; second person goes into other shower, turns it on, discovers it won't work because other shower is on, walks away leaving the shower switched on, forgets about it and decides to go to work. 1st person turns off their shower.

Now what happens to the 2nd persons shower, will it turn on and run all day?

I'm planning on installing two showers in rented accomadation, want to avoid this possible situation.

Ricta

Yes that would happen in non priority showers to either one and in priority units it would happen if the non priority one is left on while the other one is in use.

The best way to overcome that is a similar control circuit to what randyleprachaun said,, except use a n/o contactor on each shower fitted at the board, with a spring switch up outside each bathroom which closes the contactor to that shower and a timer for each contactor at the board that cuts it out after 10 minutes. Each contactor coil has to be fed through a n/c auxilary of the other contactor so once one shower is running the other cannot run. and if the shower thats not running is left on, nothing will happen when the other is switched off, or times out.

When someone wants a shower they have to press the spring switch outside their shower room, and ideally have a neon light on their shower switch to show their one is now available, or even better a neon beside the spring switch.
(a spring switch is like a light switch except it returns to off when you press and release)

davelerave

It's an issue alright.It would be better if showers were designed to be reset after mains failure.Maybe some are ,i'm not sure

Bruthal

davelerave wrote: »

It's an issue alright.It would be better if showers were designed to be reset after mains failure.Maybe some are ,i'm not sure

Well the setup i mentioned takes care of only one shower allowed on and also the other one wont start even if left on even while the other one is being used and then turned off, until its start button is pressed.

Its actually exact same contactor control circuit used for motor forward reverse, except it has a time delay that stops it after a set time, and instead of forward and reverse buttons, you have start at one shower and start at the other also. Each start button is wired through the aux n/c of the other showers contactor.

So if one is running, and someone tries to use the other and it does`t come on, and they rush out to work as suggested by Ricta without turning the shower off, it wont start even when the other one stops until start button is pressed

Ricta

Thanks for replying. It would seem to me I would need to find an open minded, willing-to-try, top notch electrician to prevent the issue. I would guess that he/she would see it as an excuse to charge consultancy rates! Maybe it will be simpler/cheaper to use a non-priority unit and to put a sign in the ensuites that if they leave the ceiling switch on, it will hurt their pocket with excessive electricity bills!
I will print out this thread and show it to the electrician and see what happens.
Thanks again.
Ricta

Bruthal

Ricta wrote: »

Thanks for replying. It would seem to me I would need to find an open minded, willing-to-try, top notch electrician to prevent the issue. I would guess that he/she would see it as an excuse to charge consultancy rates! Maybe it will be simpler/cheaper to use a non-priority unit and to put a sign in the ensuites that if they leave the ceiling switch on, it will hurt their pocket with excessive electricity bills!
I will print out this thread and show it to the electrician and see what happens.
Thanks again.
Ricta

Yes a non priority unit is the simplest, although the way i mentioned is not too difficult to do, but the non priority unit or even a priority one is the least amount of work as they are just installed at the MCB board and no more wiring is involved once the extra shower is in, a non priority would be what you`d want anyway for first come first serve type setup,- i.e. who ever is in their shower first wont be interrupted by the other.

You could make sure the shower isolators, usually pullchords but can be red isolator switches have neon lights on them, so they can pull the pull chord and check the light is on just before they turn on shower itself, and remind them as you say about the hefty bill if they walk off with shower unit left in on position