Citroen DS, oil light flashing and engine skipping-disaster or no?

cath28

Hi again,

I posted a while ago about a Citroen DS I was looking at. I went to see the car, and while she looked fantastic, I brought a classic car fanatic ( though not a mechanic, he used o have a DS and many more classics...) with me and as I was driving her he noticed a weird engine sound he didnt like, said it was 'skipping' (or was it 'missing'? )

Also, the oil light started flashing irregularly after we had driven for about ten minutes. According to him, this could spell disaster engine wise although she has been totally restored. But he suggested I ask here to see if the light issue might be a common thing with the DS..( he thought it was dodgy oil pressure )

Also the hand brake was gone.. but he wasnt as concerned about that ( though I was!!)

This car has a heafty price tag (10k) so he didnt think I should proceed with it.. might be a money pit etc, but anyone out there with some advice on these issues? I would love to hear from you!
Cath

Run_to_da_hills

The real money pit in a DS is the monoque body shell, if there is any rot in it it will cost thousands. Ask the guy can he sort out the mechanical problems. Hand brake is probably just a cable.

ds20prefecture

The DS's engine is a big tough old lump, but a flickering oil pressure light is either over-exhubertant cornering or a seriously low oil level. If the car has run for a while with low oil, damage will be done and most likely there's an oil leak.

The DS is not a monocoque, it is a body-on-frame type. So the panels can look great but the frame can be nothing but filler. The buyers guide I posted last time has got tips for inspecting the frame.

Weird engine sound - can you be a bit more specific? A regular ticking is probably just a noisy tappet. Crunching, pinking or grating would be run-away time.
If it was coughing or farting it's probably an ignition issue. New plugs, leads, coil, condenser and points will sort that, but the vendor should sort it before selling the car.

An engine rebuild on any car will run to well over a thousand, so if in doubt avoid.

Handbrake can be as simple as a cable tension adjustment or (more likely) worn pads that are so difficult to replace a lot of owners don't bother and just keep a block to wedge under the wheel or park in gear if its a manual.

If the problems are easily sorted like handbrake cable, tappet adjustment and an oil topup, why has the seller not done these before putting the car on the market? The most likely conclusion for you the buyer is that the problems are not easily sorted.

I'd say €10,000 to €16000 is the price for a good daily driver - i.e. mechanically sound, no obvious issues, solid frame and acceptable cosmetically. €16000 to €20000 is concours land - the car should be as good if not better than it left the factory. Rarer models will go for higher than that.

One last word of warning - you sound like you're trying to talk yourself into this car. There's hundreds of DSs for sale at any given point in time. Don't fall in love with just one.

Run_to_da_hills

ds20prefecture wrote: »

The DS is not a monocoque, it is a body-on-frame type. So the panels can look great but the frame can be nothing but filler. The buyers guide I posted last time has got tips for inspecting the frame.

The Citroen DS is not a body on frame, I had one, the inner body is all contained in one unit. Two large box section "chassis" rails run down each side of the car which contains the hydraulic piping, cabling etc. According to the limks the car is "monoque" construction with unstressed outer panels bolted in place.

I agree with the Engine being a prehistoric lump taken from its predecessor, the Avant Traction. (Citroen was originally going to replace this block with a high performance air cooled motor but never got around to it).

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1955-1975-citroen-ds-19-20-21-23.htm

http://www.ritzsite.demon.nl/Citroen68/DS_Pallas.htm

ds20prefecture

In a monocoque the body panels form the load bearing structure of the car. The DS has a frame, with non-load bearing panels bolted on. You can drive a DS with no panels at all. It is not a monocoque in that it has 2 bodies, one load bearing frame and one set of enclosing panels.

It's predecessor (it's Traction Avant BTW) was a proper monocoque, as was it's successor the CX.

Lyre61

Dont touch it. You would not buy a new car that the engine was skipping on, so don't buy an old one. The engine can take a lot of abuse, but if it is missing a beat it can be anything from a doggy HT lead to a piston losing serious compression.
I would side with your friend on this. Leave this one there are loads out there and you will get a good runner for €10K also do not limit your search to Ireland if you want I will get you a few details on cars that are for sale in the back of the club magazine.

ds20prefecture

Here's some other places worth looking:

http://www.losson.com/ds21/ds21iepallas1972/ds21pallas1972_en.php
This guy has a good rep and always has good stock. Used to tend towards the expensice end of the market.

http://www.citroen-andre.com/
Andre is a great guy to help you find a car.

http://www.citroeniddsclub.nl/annonces.asp?steID=1&ID=304
There's a tasty '69 DS20 Pallas here. 1969 cars had a dash that was unique for that year. IMO it is the nicest of all the dashes (except the very first one).

I bought my car from a private seller in the Netherlands and he's since sold another car to a friend. I can put you in touch with him - his hobby is finding good cars in France, getting them running and selling them on. He's a very decent chap.

2cv

IMHO if you're spending 10k on a DS, it has to be perfect, unless it's a Chapron convertible, then you can expect to be paying slightly more

Run_to_da_hills

2cv wrote: »

IMHO if you're spending 10k on a DS, it has to be perfect, unless it's a Chapron convertible, then you can expect to be paying slightly more

I would regard 10K as cheap for a DS, more like something that may need some attention, 10K is 8K Stg, you wouldnt get too much in the UK for that. There are also quite a few counterfeit convertibles about, the real ones are like hens teeth.

2cv

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I would regard 10K as cheap for a DS, more like something that may need some attention, 10K is 8K Stg, you wouldnt get too much in the UK for that. .

Well it's a LHD so you shouldn't compare to the UK.. Compare to France i'd say, and 10k would buy you something decent enough i'd say...

2cv

2cv wrote: »

Well it's a LHD so you shouldn't compare to the UK.. Compare to France i'd say, and 10k would buy you something decent enough i'd say...

or was this one a RHD?

MercMad

Can I just add here that the most likely explaination is that the engine has a misfire, probably due to not being used or warmed up enough.It probably has a fouled plug and is chugging, also meaning the idle speed will drop so low that it may bring on the oil light.

I wouldn't rule out this car, just tell him to sort out the misfire and take a re-test.If he refuses then walk away and take the adive the other epxerts have given !

Good luck !

cath28

Hi all,
Firstly, thanks a million for all your advice and suggestions.. very helpful as always.

The car is a RHD by the way.. something that appealed to me, having never driven a LHD here, but everyone says you get used to it.

I will have another chat with the guy, but I needed to do a little homework first, ( especially after reading some of the complicated replies!!)..so thanks again! Ill let ye all know how it goes,
Cath

--amadeus--

I always thought that the most expensive part of a DS was the hydraulics and that if they were sound that was more important than mechanical issues?

OH's parents had one back in teh day and we've kicked around teh idea of getting one but that's really what put me off.

ds20prefecture

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I always thought that the most expensive part of a DS was the hydraulics and that if they were sound that was more important than mechanical issues?

Not really - the components themselves are mostly cheap and pretty easy to replace. The Steering racks are comparatively weak and also the most expensive hydraulic part (about €700). Gearchange brain is fairly steep too (about €400) but i haven't heard of one failing and they're not on all cars. After that there's no single hydraulic component that costs more than €200 and they're all very robust.

A rusty frame on the other hand could swallow 2 grand in the blinking of an eye. Likewise an engine rebuild.

ds20prefecture

Cath here's one for sale in Wexford

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Citroen/DS/super/200933194874275/advert?channel=CARS

macplaxton

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Citroen DS is not a body on frame, I had one, the inner body is all contained in one unit.

ds20prefecture wrote: »

The DS has a frame, with non-load bearing panels bolted on.

I'd call it an "endo-skeleton". The other car that leaps to mind that had a bodyshell constructed in a similar manner was the Rover P6.

ds20prefecture

macplaxton wrote: »

I'd call it an "endo-skeleton". The other car that leaps to mind that had a bodyshell constructed in a similar manner was the Rover P6.

Yep, almost identical construction methods. The Matra-built renault espace is the same. The latest model is a monocoque.

Body on frame construction gives you some flexibility when it comes to body styles. I've been told that this car


is the same underneath as this one