problem dog

Alchemist2

looking for a solution that doesn't involve a BB cartridge and a pre dug grave! 15 mth old german pointer great nose but runnin in on game... has pointed be4 but not lately... have tried the long rope trick with some success but off the lead different story ... anyone any constructive advice?

Rovi

Moved to Hunting.

jwshooter

Alchemist2 wrote: »

looking for a solution that doesn't involve a BB cartridge and a pre dug grave! 15 mth old german pointer great nose but runnin in on game... has pointed be4 but not lately... have tried the long rope trick with some success but off the lead different story ... anyone any constructive advice?

your expecting to much from a young dog, especially a HPR .

if the dog is not trained enough to be introduced to game you should not push your faults on this dog.

the best trained dogs will break occasionally not to mention a pup, because that is what you have a big pup.

cavan shooter

back to basics..... I have a 7 mnth springer and its 3 steps forward two steps back....chin up:)

ShowAndGo

jwshooter wrote: »

your expecting to much from a young dog, especially a HPR .

if the dog is not trained enough to be introduced to game you should not push your faults on this dog.

the best trained dogs will break occasionally not to mention a pup, because that is what you have a big pup.

What should you and the dog be able to do before game is introduced and what is the best way to introduce game?

MIDLAND

alchemist2,
i shot with pointers 10 years now, 18 months is early days, g pointers take a lot of time to get perfect, it depends on you ,if you have the time and patience, if not give me a shout,i l take him, save your b/b and time digging a grave,
mid

EPointer=Birdss

Alchemist2 wrote: »

looking for a solution that doesn't involve a BB cartridge and a pre dug grave! 15 mth old german pointer great nose but runnin in on game... has pointed be4 but not lately... have tried the long rope trick with some success but off the lead different story ... anyone any constructive advice?

You need to bring this dog back into a controlled environment. I personally plant birds for young dogs to get them steady & pointing on first scent.
I bet he acts like a springer when he picks up the scent. Going ape sh*te left & right with his nose stuck to the floor tailing the scent. This happens alot of pointing breeds & is like an overload to their scences.

You need to calm the whole thing down & hence control it.
I personally think the americans have it sussed with the bird launchers but dizying or planting works too. I don't do all that whoa stuff. Plant a bird in some different scenarios such as long grass ditch etc & run the dog from down wind up to them.Leave the long lead on him & let him run around with it.(obviously in clean countryside or he'll be tied up in knots in no time) This way you can grab it as soon as he picks up the scent & control his movements.
If my dog flushes a bird I completly ignore him & turn & walk away. If he does it right he gets plenty of rewards.
You may need a second person for awhile for numerous reasons.
1) To release any birds once the dog has pointed. Whether manually or walking in
2) To shoot a bird for him as you should never do both.All eyes on the dog.

Over time he may learn how to work them by experience & stay well back but I have seen this take to their 4th season & for the normal shooting man waiting this long just adds frustration & you'll end up getting rid of him.
Some pups are also so excited by the flush & whirl of wing & feather that they seem to forget to point & can become a hard habit to break.

I would try tiring the dog a bit before you bring him hunting. Try running him on some heavy ground with no birds to knock the edge off him & then start the training. Very hard to get a young dog to calm a few minutes after he's out of the run!

Sorry for the essay but some experience I've had that may help.
Don't give up on him anyway. See how he pans out by the end of this season at least... He is still young but if he gets bad habits you need to re-train him again which can be tough... :eek:

Gortglas

Epointer,
Similar issue myself. Seems like great advice.

On the same subject you might be also able to help. I am also getting my 15 months old GSP bitch ready for this season. So far she is trained to come on a whistle, she will also drop and stay on the whistle, but all of this has been in a controlled environment. I am training my first dog, so apart from a couple of books and advice from my father who always had english pointers, i am kind of winging it.

We shot a few birds with her last year when she was only a puppy (as we had no other dog) and she was able to find them with her nose and more often than not she would set solid until told to 'go back'.

Last night I had her out for a couple of hours and she was going well, hunting all four ditches and zig zaging the centre of all fields and then waiting for me before going to the next field. Then I spotted a cock pheasant in the next field (bird was about 20 yards from the ditch in a tuft of grass, then ran to cover). We entered the field and I sent her in the direction of where I spotted the bird, she immediately started to set when she came upon the tuft of grass, and then held it for 30 odd seconds. But, rater that go in the direction that the bird went she took off in the opposite direction. I tried to call he back on the whistle, but she ignored me for 4 or 5 minutes.

After that she did another few things that we uncharacteristic, and despite continueing to work hard she stopped obeying my commands and the whistle. The chap I shoot with suggested an electric collar, but that would be very much a last resort for me.

I think that I have possibly been overusing the whistle so its back to the controlled environment and simple commands for the week this week. She is such a nice dog, but I do not want to be shooting with a dog that will not come when called and will not remain under control once she comes onto a bird.

Any advice would be helpful, in terms of what types of excercises i should be doing with her to ensure she will be ready for the 1st of November.
Thanks.

stevoman

OP same problem last year with a 1 year old setter, great nose but running in. she is 2 now. didnt push hunting on her this year just took her fishing with me most nights. starting back training on the first of september.

what im doind this year is borrowing a racing pidgeon from a friend. im just going to tie the wings of him and place him in a field of grass and walk the setter up on it a few times until it starts to set it steadily. then when im dont just untie it and it will fly back to my freinds house. a man i know did this with his pointer and it worked a treat according to him.

im going to give it a go myself. most important i had to realise i exp[ected too much from her last year and im going to give her time until she is ready. at 2 years of age i have to remember she is still only a young teenager in dog years.

EPointer=Birdss

Gortglas wrote: »

Epointer,
Similar issue myself. Seems like great advice.

On the same subject you might be also able to help. I am also getting my 15 months old GSP bitch ready for this season. So far she is trained to come on a whistle, she will also drop and stay on the whistle, but all of this has been in a controlled environment. I am training my first dog, so apart from a couple of books and advice from my father who always had english pointers, i am kind of winging it.

We shot a few birds with her last year when she was only a puppy (as we had no other dog) and she was able to find them with her nose and more often than not she would set solid until told to 'go back'.

Last night I had her out for a couple of hours and she was going well, hunting all four ditches and zig zaging the centre of all fields and then waiting for me before going to the next field. Then I spotted a cock pheasant in the next field (bird was about 20 yards from the ditch in a tuft of grass, then ran to cover). We entered the field and I sent her in the direction of where I spotted the bird, she immediately started to set when she came upon the tuft of grass, and then held it for 30 odd seconds. But, rater that go in the direction that the bird went she took off in the opposite direction. I tried to call he back on the whistle, but she ignored me for 4 or 5 minutes.

After that she did another few things that we uncharacteristic, and despite continueing to work hard she stopped obeying my commands and the whistle. The chap I shoot with suggested an electric collar, but that would be very much a last resort for me.

I think that I have possibly been overusing the whistle so its back to the controlled environment and simple commands for the week this week. She is such a nice dog, but I do not want to be shooting with a dog that will not come when called and will not remain under control once she comes onto a bird.

Any advice would be helpful, in terms of what types of excercises i should be doing with her to ensure she will be ready for the 1st of November.
Thanks.

Few questions.
Was this her 1st day out in awhile?
was the wind blowing in the direction she ran out the from where the bird ran?
Is she a timid our headstrong dog?
She probably ran back the scent trail in her eagerness. (Maybe due to wind direction) The longer she went without finding the bird the more eager & frustrated she got & listening to you was last thing on her mind.
This is where you could of done with an E collar to snap her out of it.

I personally use an E collar cause my dog is the most headstrong fec**er you could find but a likeable character none the less. I set it to a very low setting & only give him a dart when he doesn't respond.
I don't think dogs often ignore you, i think that they get so transfixed in what they're doing at times that they don't hear you. I use the collar as a way of breaking the trance if you will. Little dart & then the whistle & only when I have tried the whistle a few times with no response. Last thing you wanna do is be roaring & calling & running around the field!
Depending on how headstrong she is a collar may not be needed. A soft dog can be put under control with a roar & few shapes but I am not a fan of making alot of noise when out with em.

If it was her 1st day out in awhile I'd but it down to eagerness. Remember she is all but fully grown vrs a pup last season & will think nothing of covering a few miles a day & she has months of pent up energy. You need to get her listening again so back to obedience for awhile i think.

After my fellas gone a bit wild I will usually put him on heel & walk to the next field, do a few sits stays our make him retrieve the dummy a few times etc. It calms the whole thing down, reinforces that he is to take commands from me & makes him forget about what happened 5 or 10 mins before. Remember consistency at all times & you are in control, if the dog makes a mistake so what? That's what training is for.

I'd say bring her into the field & do your training in between hunting runs.
I am not a fan of yard work once a dog is hunting as I have had dogs that but will virtually do backflips in the yard when there is nothing else interesting around & then you bring em out the fields & they are unrecognisable lunatics!
I believe if you want a dog to take commands in the hunting field thats where you train them. You can reinforce commands at feeding times at home but the majority should be done in a controlled hunting enviroment. If she doesn't listen catch her up, remind her your the boss & start again. If you find yourself getting frustrated put her on the lead & go home & start again the next day. I do between 2-4 sessions a week. When I do 2 he is tougher because he's too fresh. I start him with 3-4 some long retrieves in the water & then some heavy cover or bog & he's calmed enough then to work with. Takes about 2 hours a session. (Mostly walking & travelling & him working with a bit of training for 5-10 mins thrown in where necessary) I'm hoping over time that the need to do this will go & during the season he does enough at the weekend so that he's always workable afer the Sat morning out.

Don't over whistle but always stay in contact with the dog. I use my hands more. Once I whistle I move in left or right or on further. He's always looking for me now so often I can turn him without the whistle. Once she gets experienced she will hunt away & your involvment will be minimal.

Remember as with the other chap this a very young dog & it will take time. If you are this interested now when she's young she won't turn out half bad! This is a big season for her & if you get her under control again, things like working the bird incorrectly will be refined through experience...
Hope this helps & let us know how you get on... Read read & read again online. Pick up some good tips...

Gortglas

-She had been out walking every day, but hadnt seen me in 3 days as I was away at a funeral, so it was her first proper session probably since last Wednesday, and we were only out about 15 minutes when it occured.
-Yes, the direction that she went in was in the direction of the wind, it was a very windy evening, all be it that it was in sheltereed enough field.
-She is far from timid, but woudln't go as far as to say that she is headstrong.

It was just disapointing as she followed my arm signals to the spot where I saw the bird, stalked and pointed the spot perfectly and just lost it. In hindsight I probably should have let her to her own devices for a couple of minutes after one call failed to bring her back.

When my wife walks her she uses the whistle to call her and maybe she overuses it, so i might get her to stop that altogether so that its is my whistle only that she is on.

As you say, now is the time of the year for mistakes, and I am happy that I have the makings of a right good dog. When i say I will go back to a controled environment, i dont mean yard work but more working 3 small (circa 2 acre) fields close to the house where there are rarely pheasants, but the odd rabbit, crow and pigeon that make it 'real'.

Think i will just do an hour of sits, stays and coming on call for this evening and ease her back into it when I am more confident she is back under control.

Another point is that it was her first bird fo the year last night and there were hens on nests in our area up to 3 weeks ago so I was purposely avoiding the birds.

Thanks again for the above.

Anybody else training young dogs, it would be great to hear yere stories and different scenarios that have arisen and how ye have tackled them.

Gortglas

Epointer,
An update. Monday and tuesday night i brought the bitch out for short walks and kept her in a controlled area. Did plentyof ahnd signals, stop, sit and stay, and rewarded her for coming in on the whistle when called. All went well, so last night I went for a longer walk just to see.

She was going well, and ranging perfectly and obeying whistle and hand signals. After about half an hour she began showing signs of hunting real hard and after 2 fields she set solid and on command rose and fine big cock pheasant. I was chuffed. Let here hunt around the spot for a minute or so before calling her back in.

Started making our way back home at that stage a happy camper. Close to the house then she again started to go hard, and got down into the stream that runs under the ditch, she hunted slowly up along the stream (about 6 - 18 inches deep in places) for about 300 yards and came back up set solid for about a 30-40 second on a hollow at the edge of water, until a young cock pheasant made a run for it and took off.... again left her rummage around the spot for about a minute before calling her in for a rub !

Good evennig all in all, but it probably showed me the importance of plenty of work with a young dog, to keep them under control.

Things are looking up.
(All I need now is the fecking gun licence to come through)

EPointer=Birdss

Gortglas wrote: »

Epointer,
An update. Monday and tuesday night i brought the bitch out for short walks and kept her in a controlled area. Did plentyof ahnd signals, stop, sit and stay, and rewarded her for coming in on the whistle when called. All went well, so last night I went for a longer walk just to see.

She was going well, and ranging perfectly and obeying whistle and hand signals. After about half an hour she began showing signs of hunting real hard and after 2 fields she set solid and on command rose and fine big cock pheasant. I was chuffed. Let here hunt around the spot for a minute or so before calling her back in.

Started making our way back home at that stage a happy camper. Close to the house then she again started to go hard, and got down into the stream that runs under the ditch, she hunted slowly up along the stream (about 6 - 18 inches deep in places) for about 300 yards and came back up set solid for about a 30-40 second on a hollow at the edge of water, until a young cock pheasant made a run for it and took off.... again left her rummage around the spot for about a minute before calling her in for a rub !

Good evennig all in all, but it probably showed me the importance of plenty of work with a young dog, to keep them under control.

Things are looking up.
(All I need now is the fecking gun licence to come through)

Delighted for you mate. Nice to see the work pay off.
Be all the better for both of you when you can drop a bird. Expect her to go a little loopy again when you do but it seems you have it sussed now how to settle her down. She'll be flying it at this rate come the end of the season... Any chance of a few vids of her working?

Gortglas

Will try and get a vidoe of her on the phone and see how that works out.

Alchemist2

thanks for the advice lads... ...he pointed caged quail the other day off the long rope and also pointed a rabbit in a strip of beet...fingers crossed for November first

Gortglas

All going we with my bitch at the minute, quatering very well and obeying commands for the most part. She has a good nose, and is setting pheasants well. However, one evening last week and again on Saturday she chased pheasant after they broke. First one was a young cock who ran out into the open away from her, and the second was ina field of beat after she hunted it for about 15 minutes.

Called he back, and she came into me after a minute or so of over excitement, put her on the lead and moved on.

This is a little disapointing, but still happy that I have the makings of a good dog. However, any tips as to how I can steady her on birds. Again, I dont want to have to resort to an electric collar just yet.

stevoman

Gortglas wrote: »

This is a little disapointing, but still happy that I have the makings of a good dog. However, any tips as to how I can steady her on birds. Again, I dont want to have to resort to an electric collar just yet.

when she is set just walk up behind her and talk to her. such as good girl and steady now and rub her down. it helps. if shes young dont worry they all get excited.

i presume you know the story about the calf and the bull on the hill looking at the cows?

give her time. as i said mine will be 2 and half this year and she's doing well. pay no attention to the people you meet who lay claim to their dogs setting at 6 months. fine some will sparadically, some will be solid and some wont at all, like kids they all take different times to prgress. i have seen dogs that didnt come into their own until 5 years and became the best ogs a man could ever shoot over.

just make sure your dog has the manners you require and get her out hunting as much as you can, because you cant teach your dog experience.

Gortglas

Cheers, probably expecting too much and hopefully she will settle a bit in time... She is doing most things right at the minute, and things liek this are probably my own fault for having her shootin last year and just letter her do as she pleased as she was only 6 months. Time is a great thing.

stevoman

Gortglas wrote: »

Cheers, probably expecting too much and hopefully she will settle a bit in time... She is doing most things right at the minute, and things liek this are probably my own fault for having her shootin last year and just letter her do as she pleased as she was only 6 months. Time is a great thing.

look it takes time and experience. i had mine out this morning and she's 2 and a half and got her first nosefull of her first pheasnts of this year. she went crazy with excitment. she made a few sets but didnt hold solid and chased a few more when they landed. i had to put it down to excitment and have to just keep working on her. im afriad i think i may have a "late bloomer" on my hands. never mind though. good things come to those who wait.