The difference between permanancy and c.i.d???

gaeilgebeo

Hi all,
Can anyone clarify the difference between permanancy and cid. VECs only offer cid now as opposed to permanancy. There is debate on wether or not cid really is secure. If numbers drop in a school and you're cid, can you lose your job? Is it secure etc......... Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.

TheDriver

thats the big question, the unions stated cids are basically permanent but that was when there was work for all, but now in these times, it will be a test case that will see the real value of a CID. My thoughts are that the hours are yours as long as the hours are there for someone.....

ulysses32

A CID of 22hours is the equivalent of a PWT contract. Legislation states that it confers the same rights and therefore it is the same.

For further clarification on department stance see circular 0055/2008. Here it is again clear that CID is a permanent contract.

CID's of more than 18 hours are now entitled to be timetabled and payed for 22 hours.

The "as long as the hours are there" argument has not stood up to scrutiny. CID holders in over quota schools are still there depspite reduced allocations etc.

Department solutions will be moving towards repeployment in 2009/2010.

TheDriver

Thanks Ulysses and i hope you are right but scrutiny will come into effect very much so next month with proper cutbacks going on, I have yet to be convinced as why bother with CID in the first place and just make people permanent?If CID=PWT, then why bother with CID.
Also I don't trust the Dept one bit, they can chop and change their minds to cuit the current situation. Sceptical and hope I am wrong to be honest but on the BOM that I rep staff, I constantly smell a rat with CIDs being discussed.

ulysses32

TheDriver wrote: »

Thanks Ulysses and i hope you are right but scrutiny will come into effect very much so next month with proper cutbacks going on, I have yet to be convinced as why bother with CID in the first place and just make people permanent?If CID=PWT, then why bother with CID.
Also I don't trust the Dept one bit, they can chop and change their minds to cuit the current situation. Sceptical and hope I am wrong to be honest but on the BOM that I rep staff, I constantly smell a rat with CIDs being discussed.

1. The reason for CID is so that people on part-time contracts can get job security. Previously EPT could never have become permanent EPT, just PWT. This has v=created its own problems in the sense that the department/ schools no longer had to offer full hours.

2. "permanency" is legislationally outdated within the EU. CID is the legal speak for permanency in The European legislative context. It was due to pressure from the EU that Fixed Term Acts, etc were introduced. They are designed as protective legislation.

3. I agree with your scepticism, however the department face much bigger battles than the Teacher unions on this one. Internally the Labour Court supports the legislative terminology. This act and term is nor exclusive to education it is national and international. Externally, the EU supports it. It is not the case that Batt can wield the axe on CID like he has done on the PTR, etc.

4. This is the main reason why future discussions betwwen department and unions centre on redeployment as opposed to redundancy.

5. Extract from Circular 0055/2008.
3.2 Notification of Permanent Vacancies

3.2.1 Fixed-term teachers must be notified of the existence of a permanent vacancy. Management authorities should note the provisions of the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term) Work Act, 2003 which at section 10.2 provides that the information regarding a vacancy “may be provided by means of a general announcement at a suitable place or undertaking or establishment”.

3.2.2 The method used to bring such posts to the attention of fixed-term teachers, including those on leave of absence, shall be included in the written statement of terms of employment given to each fixed-term teacher. The methodology to be used is not prescriptive and may include use of, for example, any or all of the following:
· the employer’s website,
· the school staff notice board,
· individual notification by letter post (e.g. to teachers on leave of absence).

The objective is to ensure that the fixed-term teacher is notified in a timely manner of the post to be filled so as to provide the teacher with the opportunity to apply for the post should s/he wish to do so.

Note that CID contracts are not included in this notification process because they are not fixed-term teachers and have full tenure rights.

6.Extract 2 from circular 0055/2008
5.1.1 Where the combined number of permanent/CID teachers is less than the number of approved permanent posts (expressed in wholetime equivalents), the filling of a permanent post may arise. Where such a vacancy occurs, the employer shall apply the following options in the sequence shown to the filling of such posts:

(a) offer a CID where an existing fixed-term teacher qualifies for such in accordance with the terms of this circular; or

(b) submit the vacancy for filling by redeployment in accordance with agreed arrangements, or

(c) consider an opportunity, the qualification requirements of the post permitting, for a teacher employed on a CID in a part-time capacity to undertake additional hours up to but not exceeding full-time hours (see * below)

These options having been exhausted, any permanent post(s) remaining unfilled shall be advertised by the employer and filled through a formal recruitment process using the standard procedures and criteria for the filling of such posts including the filling of a part-time post on a permanent basis.

It is clear here also that CID and permanent are the same thing. That is to say if a CID contract cannot be awarded internally then the post may be advertised as a permanent post. IF CID/ permanent were not the same thing then surely this would not be the case.

6. Your Principal's quote could be taken to mean anything, i.e. teachers who were holding out for CIDs and didn't get them this year because of the change in PTR and school allocations; or the fact that part-time CID contracts are becoming normal in circumstances where the teacher and the school owuld prefer a full timetable.

gaeilgebeo

ulysses32 wrote: »

1. The reason for CID is so that people on part-time contracts can get job security. Previously EPT could never have become permanent EPT, just PWT. This has v=created its own problems in the sense that the department/ schools no longer had to offer full hours.

2. "permanency" is legislationally outdated within the EU. CID is the legal speak for permanency in The European legislative context. It was due to pressure from the EU that Fixed Term Acts, etc were introduced. They are designed as protective legislation.

3. I agree with your scepticism, however the department face much bigger battles than the Teacher unions on this one. Internally the Labour Court supports the legislative terminology. This act and term is nor exclusive to education it is national and international. Externally, the EU supports it. It is not the case that Batt can wield the axe on CID like he has done on the PTR, etc.

4. This is the main reason why future discussions betwwen department and unions centre on redeployment as opposed to redundancy.

5. Extract from Circular 0055/2008.
3.2 Notification of Permanent Vacancies

3.2.1 Fixed-term teachers must be notified of the existence of a permanent vacancy. Management authorities should note the provisions of the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term) Work Act, 2003 which at section 10.2 provides that the information regarding a vacancy “may be provided by means of a general announcement at a suitable place or undertaking or establishment”.

3.2.2 The method used to bring such posts to the attention of fixed-term teachers, including those on leave of absence, shall be included in the written statement of terms of employment given to each fixed-term teacher. The methodology to be used is not prescriptive and may include use of, for example, any or all of the following:
· the employer’s website,
· the school staff notice board,
· individual notification by letter post (e.g. to teachers on leave of absence).

The objective is to ensure that the fixed-term teacher is notified in a timely manner of the post to be filled so as to provide the teacher with the opportunity to apply for the post should s/he wish to do so.

Note that CID contracts are not included in this notification process because they are not fixed-term teachers and have full tenure rights.

6.Extract 2 from circular 0055/2008
5.1.1 Where the combined number of permanent/CID teachers is less than the number of approved permanent posts (expressed in wholetime equivalents), the filling of a permanent post may arise. Where such a vacancy occurs, the employer shall apply the following options in the sequence shown to the filling of such posts:

(a) offer a CID where an existing fixed-term teacher qualifies for such in accordance with the terms of this circular; or

(b) submit the vacancy for filling by redeployment in accordance with agreed arrangements, or

(c) consider an opportunity, the qualification requirements of the post permitting, for a teacher employed on a CID in a part-time capacity to undertake additional hours up to but not exceeding full-time hours (see * below)

These options having been exhausted, any permanent post(s) remaining unfilled shall be advertised by the employer and filled through a formal recruitment process using the standard procedures and criteria for the filling of such posts including the filling of a part-time post on a permanent basis.

It is clear here also that CID and permanent are the same thing. That is to say if a CID contract cannot be awarded internally then the post may be advertised as a permanent post. IF CID/ permanent were not the same thing then surely this would not be the case.

6. Your Principal's quote could be taken to mean anything, i.e. teachers who were holding out for CIDs and didn't get them this year because of the change in PTR and school allocations; or the fact that part-time CID contracts are becoming normal in circumstances where the teacher and the school owuld prefer a full timetable.

Thank you so much for putting my mind at ease

bdoo

The main problem, as I see it, with a CID is that you need to have held a fixed term contract for each of the previous four years. Normally this is not a problem - it's how I got mine!

The difficulty has arisen recently with the cutting of the PTR which suddenly made teachers who otherwise would have been entitled to a CID surplus to requirements.

Even a teacher who has work for the for previous school sessions is not automatically entitled to a CID if the employer can provide an 'objective ground' for not issuing the contract. An example of an objective ground would be where the teacher was covering a career break or a succession of maternity leaves or indeed, a secondment, where the original post holder on a contract is due to, or has the right to return. Essentially they will not give out two contracts for the same job.

It's worth noting also that when you are empolyed by a VEC, you are appointed to the VEC scheme and are liable to be transferred to another school/centre within the scheme. This is the case whether you hold a PWT or CID contract. The TUI has an agreement on teacher transfer with the IVEA which lists the order in which staff can be transferred i.e. 'last in, first out' etc.

OP, I can see maybe where your principal is coming from re. the CID dangers. I good friend of mine had TWT hours in a school in the VEC scheme for 4 1/2 years, liked the school etc and was happy to stay there without looking for more secure employment as he thought his was secure - alas Batt took out the knife and now he has no job!

Anyway bottom line is as others have said if you have a CID you're ok!

Godge

CID = permanent. End of discussion.

The more interesting question is whether, in the light of Supreme court decisions that mean anyone can be made redundant, the State will hold back from making permanent/CID teachers redundant in the next few years. Better hope for a tax recovery.

gaeilgebeo

Godge wrote: »

CID = permanent. End of discussion.

The more interesting question is whether, in the light of Supreme court decisions that mean anyone can be made redundant, the State will hold back from making permanent/CID teachers redundant in the next few years. Better hope for a tax recovery.

So if numbers go way down in a school and you're no longer really needed in the subject area as there is a surplus of teachers in the school, you're safe with cid?

Godge

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

So if numbers go way down in a school and you're no longer really needed in the subject area as there is a surplus of teachers in the school, you're safe with cid?

Yes, but watch the redeployment scheme that DES is cooking up. You could end up moving school to keep your job.

gaeilgebeo

Godge wrote: »

Yes, but watch the redeployment scheme that DES is cooking up. You could end up moving school to keep your job.

Thats interesting. I have a gut feeling there's a catch or a loophole. Having said that, am so grateful to have CID.