Internal Energy?

Lassard

Has anyone on the forum developed "internal energy" from training. The reason I ask, is that I keep hearing anecdotes from practitioners (whom I consider to be rational people) about people who have seemingly been able to use this energy to good effect, both in terms of their health & self protection.

I remain skeptical about this (it could be just wishful thinking after all) as I have seen no direct evidence whatsoever, it's always someone they know or have heard of / read about.


L

smacl

My take on it, after having done about 10 years of Tai Chi Chuan with a very martial emphasis, is as follows;

- Not using more energy than is necessary to get the job done, and use of leverage and good technique before strength, gives the impression of minimum effort, and hence seems impressive both from the outside and the perspective of the person having the technique done to them.

- Being able to very efficiently deliver force by using a combination of balance, good connection with the ground, larger core muscle groups and body weight together, all while keeping the body relaxed.

- Diverting rather than blocking attacks, and remaining relaxed when receiving impact. Not taking any unnecessary damage, and minimising the effect when blows are taken.

Most good martial artists / boxers / wrestlers do all this anyway, but it is trained quite specifically in internal arts, and developed through things like nei gung. See the following clip for an example; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W7zqk7oduI

There are also a lot of videos out there that show what appear to be amazing super human feats through use of complicit training partners. If it looks like crap and smells like crap, chances are it's crap. The super human powers, empty force, living forever, and other mythological stuff IMO all fall into this category. I think internal martial arts also tend to attract gurus and guru worshippers more than external arts; people who want the abilities but don't want to do the work. Most good internal MA people I've known do a gully load of conditioning, pad work, etc.. as well as everything else. And by good, in this context, I mean those who have won at high level international competitions that aren't restricted to any given style.

From a health perspective, I think practicing most martial artists will keep you healthy. Avoiding too much impact, and hyperextension makes a lot of sense as you get older. Tai Chi and qigong will take most of your joints through their range of motion in a very safe way, which is also good for the health long term.

Oh yeah, and if you stand still as a tree for long enough, with your arms held wide, you will eventually grow roots

Niall Keane

Internal Strength, the mysteries of Nei Gung, to add to Smacl’s post which is spot on:
Nei gung means internal work, Nei Jin is internal power, the application of internal force, jin contains the character for strength “li” and silk which implies learning as books were once written on silk, so jin is educated strength or force applied in the right, most efficient direction. Shen-fa, another term you’ll come across is the term for special dynamics involved developed through gung fu (time and effort).
Classically there are 3 levels of Nei Gung:
1. Unity of breath and movement, opening and closing etc.
2. Unity of intent and movement.
• Focus means feet, knees and nose face the same direction.
• Triple point alignment, means that feet fall, fist strikes and eyes focus together.
• Also there are, to expand on the above, external and internal 6 harmonies.
External: Feet move with hands (direction, turning and range), knees open, close and turn with elbows, hips with shoulders.
Internally: Xin (emotional mind) harmonises with Yi (intent or wisdom / strategic mind)
Yi harmonises with Chi (breath and circulation), and chi harmonises with Li (strength)
Keep in mind the classics state: The Jin is broken but the Yi unbroken. Yi is the most important factor in victory / survival.
3. Unity of the practitioner with his circumstance / environment. Harmony with the Dao: This amounts to a “heightened” awareness, you have learned how to efficiently breath and move, you know where your seven stars (head, shoulders, elbows, hands, hips, knees, feet) are at all times and their potential and limitations, you keep yours and your opponents in peripheral vision at all times, so you also through listening ( character contains symbols for eyes and ears) are aware of your opponents single / multiple seven stars, i.e. his potential, understanding timing, range and angle. This potential also includes a complete awareness of your environment, any cliffs / walls/ slippery ground etc? (Hence the lei tai in sanshou competitions). Coupled with this awareness, you have learned how to faint and draw to “lead” your opponent into the “void” and promptly “fa” discharge (strike, throw, lock etc.) To be borne in mind from the classics: suddenly conceal, suddenly reveal, I alone know them, they do not know me, a hero thus becomes invincible!” “He starts first but I arrive first”, why? Because I’ve “enticed him into the void with profit”. Hence we can achieve victory “using 4 ounces to defeat 1000 pounds”.
With such gung fu, speed and strength become meaningless; they merely disguise poor ability and are totally reliant on natural ability, not trained ability. They are replaced with timing and leverage. A true Nei Jia man who wins through brute strength feels no victory! So to be able to apply internal power requires 10 times as much practice as simple combinations or external techniques, it requires a thorough understanding of human anatomy and psychology in the immediacy of combat, hence the additional use of “dim mak” or pressure points in nei jia chuan (internal family boxing). However external or internal alone only make one part of the tai chi symbol; they must mutually aid one another. So you cannot simply practice hand form and some tui shou drills and become expert, all the bag work, sparring and conditioning needed in the external styles is needed in the internal styles, as the previous poster mentioned.
Hope this helps?
Niall

Lassard

Guys,

Thanks for the insight. It certainly seems like a tall order for anyone to develop this, and not with a few hours practice per week.

L

Tim_Murphy

Has anyone on the forum developed "internal energy" from training. The reason I ask, is that I keep hearing anecdotes from practitioners (whom I consider to be rational people) about people who have seemingly been able to use this energy to good effect, both in terms of their health & self protection.

Ask them to give you a solid definition of what this 'internal energy' is. Chances are they won't be able to do so. Vague statements coupled with some foreign words and some pseudo-eastern philosophies are usually the order of the day with this stuff.

Unless of course they are talking about what one of the previous posters said:

- Not using more energy than is necessary to get the job done, and use of leverage and good technique before strength, gives the impression of minimum effort, and hence seems impressive both from the outside and the perspective of the person having the technique done to them.

- Being able to very efficiently deliver force by using a combination of balance, good connection with the ground, larger core muscle groups and body weight together, all while keeping the body relaxed.

- Diverting rather than blocking attacks, and remaining relaxed when receiving impact. Not taking any unnecessary damage, and minimising the effect when blows are taken.

Which is basically just being good at what you do. Good boxing, good wrestling, good whatever. Nothing mysterious at all, but many martial arts people won't be happy until they have put some odd name around it.

smacl

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Which is basically just being good at what you do. Good boxing, good wrestling, good whatever.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said on the line after the ones you quoted. Great technique, well executed, with minimum effort can easily give the impression of super human ability. I reckon this is one of the main reasons many people take up martial arts. Once the instructor is honest, this shouldn't be a problem.

Nothing mysterious at all, but many martial arts people won't be happy until they have put some odd name around it

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Spider guards, rubber guards, kimuras and omoplatas, what are these guys talking about?

Martial artists have to contend with quite an array technical concepts in order to achieve the desired result. When your studying a martial art originating in another country and/or time period, you're likely to inherit a whole taxonomy of terms to convey these ideas. Where many of the original students would have had low levels of literacy, metaphors were regularly used to make memorising specific techniques and concepts easier. The odd names had a very practical function in their day, and probably still do. Anything you don't take time to understand is likely to remain mysterious.

Personally, I like the variety of styles out there, I think it adds a lot of colour to martial arts, language and all.

Of course you also get the crap artists that use the language to try to sell off something that is essentially bogus, but they'll sell you whatever you want to buy, be it chi, ki or BJJ. You also get the self delusional types who can be a real hazard.

If you want definitive material of what chi is and is not you could try A Brief History of Qi . I gotta say, it was not the most gripping book that I've ever read. If you can get your hands on a copy of Dan Doocherty's 'Instant Tao: The Tai Chi Chuan Discourse and Canon' it's a far more entertaining and martially relevent read.

Ug Lee

I was recently taking to a senior instructor at a seminar and he told me that years ago his own teacher tried to highlight the BS with supposed chi power. They had a quiet word with one of the students and during the demo when the instructor would make weird hand movements, the student would fly around the place. All the participants were amazed and wanted to be able to do this. The instructor then asked for a volunteer from the audience, someone who not in the know. The idea was that it does not really work and to highlight how much BS it is. To his surprise once the hands started waving the 2nd student started falling and rolling around. The two senior instructors are looking at each other thinking WTF!They then told the audience that the instructor does "NOT" have this power and the first guy stated that he was only pretending. But the 2nd guy kept insisting, "No Sifu, you really the power. I felt it". Type pathgate into youtube and watch some crazy sh1t .

Tim_Murphy

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Spider guards, rubber guards, kimuras and omoplatas, what are these guys talking about?

Well that’s not quite the same thing that I was talking about. These things are just standard names for moves or sets or moves (I say this for all of the above bar the spider guard, not sure what that is). On the other hands some BJJ instructors (e.g. Eddie Bravo) seem to have to have a cool name for every little move. I don't get why people need or want to do that but there you go.

Where many of the original students would have had low levels of literacy, metaphors were regularly used to make memorising specific techniques and concepts easier.

Some people might see the idea of chi as some kind of metaphor for the electrical signals that run through peoples bodies, which is fair enough. Others (like the link you provided) believe all manner of others things about it. Stuff for which there is zero hard evidence. If some means electrical signals then they probably should just say that, it gets rid of the ambiguity. If they are talking about stuff that there is no scientific evidence for then…

Raze_them_all

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Well that’s not quite the same thing that I was talking about. These things are just standard names for moves or sets or moves (I say this for all of the above bar the spider guard, not sure what that is). On the other hands some BJJ instructors (e.g. Eddie Bravo) seem to have to have a cool name for every little move. I don't get why people need or want to do that but there you go.

As far as I know Eddie Bravo named some positions that didn't have names in BJJ such as crackhead but also his thinking was if he gives moves different names when he calls them out the opponent/opponents corner wouldn't know what was coming and be able to defend it. I could be wrong though

Tim_Murphy

Raze_them_all wrote: »

his thinking was if he gives moves different names when he calls them out the opponent/opponents corner wouldn't know what was coming and be able to defend it.

Unless of course they had bought one of his widely available books... :pac:

Raze_them_all

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Unless of course they had bought one of his widely available books... :pac:

Lol well obviously he didn't have any books out at the time. Keep yer smart answers for another certain poster you!

SergeyS

Not sure what the mentioned "Internal Energy" is, only seen/felt how it works.
It looks to me that as long as you:
1. Stay relaxed
2. Keep your structure
3. Keep your balance (projection of center of mass falls to the line connecting centers of feet)
4. Don't go out of your limits (don't over-stretch, don't collapse)
5. Keep your upper part connected to lower part (don't twist your spine)
Internal energy will start to manifest itself.

Nothingcompares

This lad has Dillman's level of internal energy manipulation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChZfWk7zCiQ

pma-ire

Ug Lee wrote: »

I was recently taking to a senior instructor at a seminar and he told me that years ago his own teacher tried to highlight the BS with supposed chi power. They had a quiet word with one of the students and during the demo when the instructor would make weird hand movements, the student would fly around the place. All the participants were amazed and wanted to be able to do this. The instructor then asked for a volunteer from the audience, someone who not in the know. The idea was that it does not really work and to highlight how much BS it is. To his surprise once the hands started waving the 2nd student started falling and rolling around. The two senior instructors are looking at each other thinking WTF!They then told the audience that the instructor does "NOT" have this power and the first guy stated that he was only pretending. But the 2nd guy kept insisting, "No Sifu, you really the power. I felt it". Type pathgate into youtube and watch some crazy sh1t .

i love it

Jason Mc

i would like to see these chi exercises done on an angry pitbull

judomick

probably just gas...

pma-ire

Jason Mc wrote: »

i would like to see these chi exercises done on an angry pitbull

Cesar Milan has shown the world that you only have to to say shh to an angry pitbull

SergeyS

To try "internal energy" not far away from Ireland: http://i-liqchuan.com/content/first-ever-uk-workshop

This weekend Master Sam Chin will guide us in learning how to develop specific qualities the internal arts are known for, through solo exercises and partner practice.

Xluna

You might aswell waste your time and money learning to pull off hadokens and sonic booms.

mushin

How is learning to pull off hadokens and sonic booms a waste of time and money?!

SergeyS

learning to pull off hadokens and sonic booms.

That is what you definitely would not learn there.
But if you interested in so-called "internal" martial arts, that would be really interesting experience.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1v4RXsH8U

Baggio...

Sorry I just don't buy into it... especially if it can't be measured (or reproducible) by any scientific means.

RealJohn

I went training with one of George Dillman's guys up in Emyvale in Monaghan before. He didn't tell me anything about "internal energy" but he was big into his pressure points.

He informed me that there's a pressure point in the gumline and demonstrated by jamming his thumb into my gum. Which hurt. Not enough to force me to even turn my head though. He tried three more times before I gave up and let him move my head (because I was getting sick of getting poked in the gum).
He could see I was unimpressed so he explained to me that it doesn't work as well if you just poke someone and in a "real" situation, you're hit that pressure point with your fist.
So essentially, what he was getting at was punching someone hard in the jaw will hurt them.

Not sure how they can peddle their rubbish so effectively for so long.

SergeyS

That's quite strange view on internal energy.

To manifest internal energy, certain principles should be implemented within a body and mind, see here http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iliqchuan.ru%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D62&sl=auto&tl=en (sorry, haven't found that description in english).
Overview is available here as well: http://i-liqchuan.com/content/introduction

I can demonstrate some basics on very low level (as I was lazy for last 3 years, shame on me). If you want to see... no, to feel how it works on high level yourself - see workshop announcement above.

BTW, Sam Chin has participated in lei tai (when he was young) using I Liq Chuan and won. (Our guys from Russia getting pretty good results - see here http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iliqchuan.ru%2Findex.php%3Fid%3D54 ).

I wonder if I will be considered spammer after all this.

smacl

SergeyS wrote: »

I wonder if I will be considered spammer after all this.

I doubt it. Interesting photo from the 2004 europeans in St Petersberg, i got 4th place in the under 77kg tui shou (fixed), so I'm guessing your Ivan Smirnov must have been the guy that put me out. Were you there yourself?

SergeyS

smacl wrote: »

Were you there yourself?

No, I joined school in 2005.