Dog Attack Incident . . .

Drumpot

Was out jogging with my 2 dogs (half springer, half collie) the other night (at 2.30 am). Happened to be one of those nights I just couldnt sleep so thought, sure why not go for a jog in the estate and give the dogs a leash free run. My estate is relatively small and enclosed as a cul de sac (Im no Mr Fit by any stretch of the imagination!).

They are good natured dogs, but the bitch does tend to get stressed with dogs that bark and small dogs in particular. They are excited around people and children (but I have to restrain them as they jump up and lick people which annoys many!). They have never bitten a person and are 20 months old.

I wouldnt normally let my dogs off the leash in the estate (only when Im in the green with them and theres nobody around).

It was Brilliant. No children, no cars, no noise - freedom of the estate, brilliant for the dogwalker. (I have a child myself so no parents complaints, Im just talking from this perspective of getting the dogs out!).

I thought to myself, would be great if i could get them out like this frequently. So I went out for a jog again tonite and it was all going so good until . .

A neighbours small dog (not sure what kind of breed) is out frequently roaming around the streets on its own. I know from talking to other neighbours that it teases mine and their dogs by going up to the fence, peeing and just sniffing around the fence that locks our dogs in.

. . . Anyway, as I was jogging with my 2 dogs, one of them (the bitch who is the dominent one and the one who would be more stressed) made a b-line for this dog and picked it up in her mouth (heard this is a dominant thing that bigger dogs do on smaller dogs). it looks horrifying ! ! She just wouldnt let go of the smaller dog (which was yelping franticly, the whole estate must of heard). I had to lift her above my chest to get her to let go. My other dog (her brother) was just wagging his tale wondering what the hell was going on! The owners of the other dog came out and had a go at me and took their dog in . (for reference, we dont have front gardens in our estate, just communal land).

I honestly dont know what damage was done to their dog but have mixed feelings on what happened.

On one hand I should of had my dog on the lead. Despite the fact I think its actually reasonable to walk/jog with your dogs in a small , cul de sac estate at 11pm at night when theres nobody around, the fact is that dogs should always be on leads. I accept that.

But . . .

I was supervising my dogs and had the other owner supervised their dog, this wouldnt of happened. Not only that but , bad as it sounds, their dog had it coming to it. Go around teasing other dogs and being let out to roam the estate is a disaster waiting to happen.

Im not hiding from my responsibility , but I am not taking any responsibility for the state of their dog . . I mean, while I didnt have my dog on the lead, at the very least I was supervising them.

Obviously I am going to have to keep my dogs on a lead and get them trained..

Just thought others might have a view, advice or of had a similar incident . . . ??? ! ! !

Burkatron

Drumpot wrote: »

Was out jogging with my 2 dogs (half springer, half collie) the other night (at 2.30 am). Happened to be one of those nights I just couldnt sleep so thought, sure why not go for a jog in the estate and give the dogs a leash free run. My estate is relatively small and enclosed as a cul de sac (Im no Mr Fit by any stretch of the imagination!).

They are good natured dogs, but the bitch does tend to get stressed with dogs that bark and small dogs in particular. They are excited around people and children (but I have to restrain them as they jump up and lick people which annoys many!). They have never bitten a person and are 20 months old.

I wouldnt normally let my dogs off the leash in the estate (only when Im in the green with them and theres nobody around).

It was Brilliant. No children, no cars, no noise - freedom of the estate, brilliant for the dogwalker. (I have a child myself so no parents complaints, Im just talking from this perspective of getting the dogs out!).

I thought to myself, would be great if i could get them out like this frequently. So I went out for a jog again tonite and it was all going so good until . .

A neighbours small dog (not sure what kind of breed) is out frequently roaming around the streets on its own. I know from talking to other neighbours that it teases mine and their dogs by going up to the fence, peeing and just sniffing around the fence that locks our dogs in.

. . . Anyway, as I was jogging with my 2 dogs, one of them (the bitch who is the dominent one and the one who would be more stressed) made a b-line for this dog and picked it up in her mouth (heard this is a dominant thing that bigger dogs do on smaller dogs). it looks horrifying ! ! She just wouldnt let go of the smaller dog (which was yelping franticly, the whole estate must of heard). I had to lift her above my chest to get her to let go. The owners of the other dog came out and had a go at me and took their dog in . (for reference, we dont have front gardens in our estate, just communal land).

I honestly dont know what damage was done to their dog but have mixed feelings on what happened.

On one hand I should of had my dog on the lead. Despite the fact I think its actually reasonable to walk/jog with your dogs in a small , cul de sac estate at 11pm at night when theres nobody around, the fact is that dogs should always be on leads. I accept that.

But . . .

I was supervising my dogs and had the other owner supervised their dog, this wouldnt of happened. Not only that but , bad as it sounds, their dog had it coming to it. Go around teasing other dogs and being let out to roam the estate is a disaster waiting to happen.

Im not hiding from my responsibility , but I am not taking any responsibility for the state of their dog . .

Obviously I am going to have to keep my dogs on a lead and get them trained..

Just thought others might have a view, advice or of had a similar incident . . . ??? ! ! !

Lets just put this into context.If it was a bigger dog that attacked yours and the owner claimed your dog had it coming how would you feel? Get real,youre responsible for your dogs nevermind what the other dogs owners were doing! Man up & take responsibility because despite what you said youre trying to justify sherking it!

Drumpot

Burkatron wrote: »

Lets just put this into context.If it was a bigger dog that attacked yours and the owner claimed your dog had it coming how would you feel? Get real,youre responsible for your dogs nevermind what the other dogs owners were doing! Man up & take responsibility because despite what you said youre trying to justify sherking it!

Not really . .

What does the size of the dog have to do with anything ? If their dog was big would it be ok ?

Why should I be responsible for somebody who doesnt take care of their dog ?

if I left my dog or children out on the streets unsupervised, how could I say anything ?

As a child I remember I teased the neighbours dog. One day it got out and took a chunk out of my rear. My mother made me go into neighbours and apologise as "I had it coming to me".

Suppose some people are brought up in principles of responsibility, others arent. Im just not going to be responsible for things that happens to other peoples dogs when they dont look after them.

I took responsibility for my dog . . They didnt . .

karlog

Well i usually walk with my dog off the lead, but only late at night when theres few cars and people around. I feel she is well trained enough not to attack other dogs.

You were in the wrong by not having your dog trained enough, however. The fact that the other owners let there dog roam free like that unsupervised is stupid.

You shouldn't have to take full responsibility for this. The others owners were at fault aswell.

ISDW

Hmmmm, yes, the other dog should definitely be kept in a secure area, and not be allowed to wander. However, you say that your dogs were supervised but it was your dog that went over to the other dog and attacked it. Supervised maybe, but certainly not under effectual control, which is the way it is worded in law.

If the other dog had come up to yours and attacked, and yours had defended itself, fair enough, but you say that your bitch made a b line for the other dog and just went for it. As for the teasing, I think you're putting human emotions and behaviours onto a dog. The other dog is allowed to wander - wrongly, I totally agree - but that doesn't justify your dog running up to it and doing what she did.

You seem to be big on responsibility, and of course you're not responsible for someone else's dog, but you are responsible for your own dog and you failed to keep it under control in this situation. Nowhere in your post do you say that this other dog has ever bitten anybody, or another dog, so saying that it had it coming to be attacked like this is just plain wrong. IMO

Drumpot

karlog wrote: »

Well i usually walk with my dog off the lead, but only late at night when theres few cars and people around. I feel she is well trained enough not to attack other dogs.

You were in the wrong by not having your dog trained enough, however. The fact that the other owners let there dog roam free like that unsupervised is stupid.

You shouldn't have to take full responsibility for this. The others owners were at fault aswell.

I totally accept responsibility for my dogs and their actions. I feel terrible that this happened and its a horrific sight.

My dogs actually get on great with loads of my neighbours dogs so its not like they go around attacking dogs (as I have had them out off the leash with other dogs there!)

I was considering apologising to the neighbours, but on reflection, i think they have just as much blame to take as myself. As such, i dont feel compelled to call in.

I just dont think anybody that lets their dog roam estates unsupervised will even give the same level of thought to this kind of incident happening. Afterall, if you are that ignorant not to supervise your dog, why would you take responsibility for anything it gets up to while you arent there ?

My dogs are good natured . . But this is a lesson learned . Just goes to show that doesnt matter how good or trained your dogs are, you can never be sure what they might do.

Burkatron

Drumpot wrote: »

Not really . .

What does the size of the dog have to do with anything ? If their dog was big would it be ok ?

I was putting it into context.If it was a bigger dog attacking yours how would you feel? You'd be pissed off that that owner didnt have their dog under control!

Drumpot wrote: »

Why should I be responsible for somebody who doesnt take care of their dog ?

I never said that. You should be responsible for what YOUR dog who was off the lead did!

Drumpot wrote: »

if I left my dog or children out on the streets unsupervised, how could I say anything ?

Irrelevant

Drumpot wrote: »

As a child I remember I teased the neighbours dog. One day it got out and took a chunk out of my rear. My mother made me go into neighbours and apologise as "I had it coming to me".

So?

Drumpot wrote: »

Suppose some people are brought up in principles of responsibility, others arent. Im just not going to be responsible for things that happens to other peoples dogs when they dont look after them.

Again,you werent looking after your dog which allowed this to happen. You're in the wrong

Drumpot wrote: »

I took responsibility for my dog . . They didnt . .

See above

I cant see what you're trying to gain by posting this online because you have your opinion & your obviously sticking to it no matter how wrong it is. I've wasted enough time explaining it to you & Im finished now. Hope you never find yourself on the receiving end of a similar situation.That dog is as much a pet as yours are!

Drumpot

Burkatron . .

I just dont see your point to be honest..

Its human nature to be upset when YOU FEEL like you have been agrieved. Instinct is to attack and reflect later.

I thought it was reasonable to take your dogs out leashfree (when theres no history of them attacking anybody) at 11pm at night in a small cul de sac estate. Obviously I was mistaken and will have to never do it again. What pisses me off is that most people dont give any consideration to their neighbours. If I do something wrong and I am to blame , I apologise.

If I had my dogs on a lead this wouldnt of happened, but if they didnt let their dog out unsupervised this wouldnt of happened. As such there is shared blame. If you dont agree with that then fair enough. I did ask for peoples opinions .

My story on being bitten on the rear was to point out that dogs attacking can also come from being provoked continuosly (he picked me out of about 10 of us playing on the road, no coincidence that I used to tease him!). While somebody here mentioned that dogs dont hold grudges, in my experience I would question that logic. They arent humans but they have memorys.

My point on leaving my dogs out on the street unsupervised was relevant to your question on "how would you feel . . " . Basically if you dont take responsibility for those under your guidance you cant complain when they get in trouble. I accept my dog was wrong to do what it did, dont think the neighbour would accept that they were wrong to leave their dog constantly unsupervised.

Im acknowledging my responsibility in this affair. Why do you keep pointing out I have a responsibility and that I am wrong ?

Why did I post it here ?

Because I do take responsibility for my actions and pets/children under my guidance. But it fecks me off when other people dont take ANY responsibility for theirs.

useful_contacts

I dont own any dogs i have a cat(actually have a similar thread where mine was attacked)

Had dogs livn with my folks, and the minute it got dark the dogs were in the house or shed locked in and no going out till the morning. There were always dogs roaming around the estate late and i liked knowing our dogs were not out there fighting.

TBH i would have had my dogs on a lead out walking no matter what but thats just me.

Drumpot

useful_contacts wrote: »

I dont own any dogs i have a cat(actually have a similar thread where mine was attacked)

Had dogs livn with my folks, and the minute it got dark the dogs were in the house or shed locked in and no going out till the morning. There were always dogs roaming around the estate late and i liked knowing our dogs were not out there fighting.

TBH i would have had my dogs on a lead out walking no matter what but thats just me.

I know, its a lesson learned for me . . Not really sure why I posted this to be honest. I just know that they will be around tomorrow harping on about my responsibilitys when I dont think they are in any position to lecture!

Just get so annoyed with people that genuinly dont care about their dogs welfare. It was harsh of me to say the dog had it coming to it. If anything its their owners fault that it teases and roams the streets so maybe I should of been more annoyed towards the neighbour then the dog!

Im sure some could say that If i cared for mine I would never leave them off a lead and thats fair enough . .

useful_contacts

Drumpot wrote: »

I know, its a lesson learned for me . . Not really sure why I posted this to be honest. I just know that they will be around tomorrow harping on about my responsibilitys when I dont think they are in any position to lecture!

Just get so annoyed with people that genuinly dont care about their dogs welfare. It was harsh of me to say the dog had it coming to it. If anything its their owners fault that it teases and roams the streets so maybe I should of been more annoyed towards the neighbour then the dog!

Im sure some could say that If i cared for mine I would never leave them off a lead and thats fair enough . .

oh i wasnt saying that- you wanted to give your dog freedom and thats allowed. but (sounds stupid) i figured i could keep my cat inside but he yowling to get out and hes been attacked when i let him out.

Basically no one should have an animal unless they live 50 billion miles from anyone else- and thats just bloody stupid. We deal with what comes to us- my cats a pain in the arse but id do anything for him(kicked another cat who was attacking him when i hate animal cruelty- but hes my cat so i protected him) And i dont regret it

Dont feel bad- just in future when you bring them out for runs have them on a lead- so if someome attacks someone you can say "Well my guy was on a lead so it was ur dog..."

star-pants

Whilst I agree it should be a case where if noones around your dogs should be allowed some freedom. I however think that in order to do so your dogs must be under strict control to be allowed off the lead. You said your girl made a b line for the other dog and attacked it. That to me means she's not under your control and thus shouldn't be allowed off the lead. Its for your own sake as much as hers. What if she'd done damage? Ok their dog was roaming about but even if it had been on a lead, your dog was free and aiming for it. So both owners are in the wrong. Which you've already said I know. But I don't think you can say oh well if their dog had been kept in. Could have been another dog, a dog on a lead, anything. In fact a lot of people tend to walk their dogs later at night.

olaola

Your dog attacked another dog. End of story. Either muzzle it, or keep it on the lead at all times if you do not have complete control over it.

Drumpot

olaola wrote: »

Your dog attacked another dog. End of story. Either muzzle it, or keep it on the lead at all times if you do not have complete control over it.

Very well balanced view there . . . .

Just the kind of opinion I expect from the neighbour who lets their dog roam the estate . . Thanks for the advice, will buy a muzzle for my child while Im at it . . You never know how they are going to act around others . .

Nice Trolling buddy . . .

Waterfall1975

Drumpot, good to see your watching your post for replies. couldn't believe that last one.
forgot what my initial reponse to your dilema was to be. anyway, **** happens, move on. dogs will be dogs.

helimachoptor

Both dogs were not under control therefore I would see the blame being split. Their dog should not be out roaming the streets at night. Also your dogs should have been under control.

olaola

Drumpot wrote: »

Very well balanced view there . . . .

Just the kind of opinion I expect from the neighbour who lets their dog roam the estate . . Thanks for the advice, will buy a muzzle for my child while Im at it . . You never know how they are going to act around others . .

Nice Trolling buddy . . .

Trolling? Excuse me. My dog is the victim of an irresponsible owner like yourself who thought that their dog needed neither a muzzle or a leash. It has cost us over 100EUR in vets fees, and since the attack she her personality has changed around other dogs. She is never let outside the house without being on a lead until we get to the park or the canal. AND she is never ever let out on her own, both myself and my husband are in complete control of her while she is off her lead.

spurscormac

olaola wrote: »

Trolling? Excuse me. My dog is the victim of an irresponsible owner like yourself who thought that their dog needed neither a muzzle or a leash. It has cost us over 100EUR in vets fees, and since the attack she her personality has changed around other dogs. She is never let outside the house without being on a lead until we get to the park or the canal. AND she is never ever let out on her own, both myself and my husband are in complete control of her while she is off her lead.

To take a neutral perspective here...
In this scenario, the original poster said that their dog had never done this before, and that they would always be on lead in future.
They appear to be genuinely upset at the incident.

However, the owners of the dog that was roaming free, and is always roaming free, have to take some responsibility too. They were also not in control of their dog.

As regards an incident that happened to your dog, which is a terrible thing to happen to both you and your dog, it is not an equivalent situation to the one being discussed here.

tesslab

OP I really feel for you here as a dog attack can be a terrifiying thing. I do agree that its completely irresponsible for dogs to be left roaming the estate. My pup has been bitten by these dogs that roam freely all day.

Perhaps some socialisation classes could benefit your dog so she would be more comfortable around other dogs. It would do her the world of good rather than being labeled a "vicious dog"

As for the neighbours personally Id drop by to see how their dog is doing and ask them not to leave the dog roaming. It was as much their fault as it was yours. At the end of the day they're not going anywhere and its usually best to keep the peace.

olaola

spurscormac wrote: »

To take a neutral perspective here...
In this scenario, the original poster said that their dog had never done this before, and that they would always be on lead in future.
They appear to be genuinely upset at the incident.

However, the owners of the dog that was roaming free, and is always roaming free, have to take some responsibility too. They were also not in control of their dog.

As regards an incident that happened to your dog, which is a terrible thing to happen to both you and your dog, it is not an equivalent situation to the one being discussed here.

You cannot blame the dog that was roaming free for this incident. His dog shouldn't have attacked the other - end of story!
I would be completely 100% be in the wrong if it were my dog. Not only would I be absolutely mortified, I would take full responsibility as the dogs owner. Apologise to the other party and offer to pay any vets bills.
I assume this op is embarrassed and is looking for an excuse. Ok, this was out of character for his dog, and he wasn't expecting it. But it's not really on to start blaming the other dog! My parents live in an estate and a one or two of the neighbours dogs roam free - and I'm delighted to bump into them when I'm out and about. I would be horrified to learn that any of them had been attacked.

anniehoo

I have to agree with Olaola. You are 100% to blame. Your dog did the attacking not the neighbours dog. Regardless if it was out unsupervised that animal didnt provoke or initiate the fight with your dog. This couldve happened whether the dog was or wasnt supervised to be honest.

Id apologise to the neighbour, offer to pay any vet bills...and ask if their dog is ok!

spurscormac

olaola wrote: »

You cannot blame the dog that was roaming free for this incident. His dog shouldn't have attacked the other - end of story!
I would be completely 100% be in the wrong if it were my dog. Not only would I be absolutely mortified, I would take full responsibility as the dogs owner. Apologise to the other party and offer to pay any vets bills.
I assume this op is embarrassed and is looking for an excuse. Ok, this was out of character for his dog, and he wasn't expecting it. But it's not really on to start blaming the other dog! My parents live in an estate and a one or two of the neighbours dogs roam free - and I'm delighted to bump into them when I'm out and about. I would be horrified to learn that any of them had been attacked.

I feel for you and the incident that happened to your dog, its a terrible thing, but I don't agree with you.

I don't get to get into a long debate over this, but IMO, both owners were partially at fault, as neither had their dog under control.

I also live in an estate where a few dogs roam free.
I think its highly irresponsible of the owners to let them do so.

While I have no problem with dogs, I know people who don't like them & are afraid. One of the free dogs comes up to absolutely everyone, and this can be very intimidating for people with a fear of dogs.
Not only this, but the dogs regularly do their business on the green areas, and this is not good for the kids that play on the grass.

Zulu

olaola wrote: »

Your dog attacked another dog. End of story. Either muzzle it, or keep it on the lead at all times if you do not have complete control over it.

QFT. Call her a troll all you like, the simple fact is she's right.

Your dog, while "supervised" attacked another dog. You, at least at that moment, could not control your dog. Keep it on the lead; you do not have complete control.

crally

I was supervising my dogs

Well to be honest you were not supervising your dogs, you were present but had no control over them.

smurf32

100% to blame and should feel bad at what u let ur dog do have u no recall????

lightening

Waterfall1975 wrote: »

**** happens, move on. dogs will be dogs.

Dead right... Dog's fight. Kids fall. Bikes get punctures.... I could go on. The outrage here is a joke.

anniehoo

lightening wrote: »

Bikes get punctures.... I could go on.

No please dont with that kinda logic.

You cant go through life not taking any responsibilty for things. It was his dog, he wasnt in control of it and it attacked another dog,someones pet. Yes its not the end of the world and sh*t happens but he needs to apologise to the owner and see if their pet is alright.

Shammy

My personal view is that there should be nothing more about it, your dog and there dog were unsupervised , these things happen. (i'm saying your dog was unsupervised because you didnt have control over it and it was off the leash).

The only problem is that it was the other dog that got bitten, that might cause a few problems , but then again their dog shouldnt have been allowed wander around unsupervised , maybe now they will keep him in.

My advise for you is to get training done on both your dogs , at least if anything comes out of this , you show that you are taking the steps trying to make sure that this type of incident doesnt happen again.

Good luck

ODD-JOB

For all the people who say the dog was not supervised ,...think about this.

An incident happened in a blink of an eye , unexpectedly , and the owner who was present immediately took action to halt the fight.

animals can not be read like books , and every now and then they do something totally out of the ordinary.

Just as well the OP was present , whilst the othwer owner was tucked away in his/her house doing other things.

Once it is prevented from happening again , then i see no further problem.

I hope the wee dog is ok , and no serious harm done.
If there is a vet bill , then you could offer a token as goodwill providing you are dealt with respectfully.

Owners are blinded by love for their pets , and i can fully understand it.

karlog

There is no way the OP should take full responsibilty for this.

According to OP the neighbours small dog is out frequently roaming around the streets on its own. Going up to his fence that locks his dogs in, peeing and sniffing etc.

It would be a completely different story if the neighbours were out with there dog when it happened, but since they weren't, OP is not fully responsible. Having a dog roam free, unsupervised like that is asking for trouble. Anything could happen to it. It could be run over by a car, or even cause a car accident and it wouldn't be unlikely for it to be just picked up and stolen.

If the owner is not there to keep an eye on their dog, too bad. Dont get me wrong OP is responsible aswell but not 100% responsible as previous poster's put it.

Why dont we just let all our dogs roam the street's unsupervised and see what happens.

ODD-JOB

I beat you to it Karlog ....

Zulu

ODD-JOB wrote: »

For all the people who say the dog was not supervised ,...think about this.

An incident happened in a blink of an eye , unexpectedly...

...which is why the dog shouldn't have been off the lead.
Simple as.

karlog

ODD-JOB wrote: »

I beat you to it Karlog ....

Lol i need to type faster

Dusty87

Ok my mind is going back and forth on this one. There dog was roaming. No dog should be allowed roam. Your arguement is the dog is always roaming, annoying other dogs etc. Did you ever say this to the owner. Dogs roam my land and have caused damage and legally i can shoot on site. I find a quick polite word to the owner works as it worked for them when my dog roamed. But your dog did the attackin. God im confused. In a way your dog was roaming too. If that makes sense

HarryD

Drumpot wrote: »

it teases mine and their dogs by going up to the fence, peeing and just sniffing around the fence that locks our dogs in.
Go around teasing other dogs and being let out to roam the estate is a disaster waiting to happen.

I feel these are invalid points, and only serve to take from your argument.
my 2c

karlog

Ok we'll see what the law states.

Stray dogs are dogs that are in a public place and are not accompanied by the owner or a responsible person. So the neighbours dog is considered a stray dog by law. Stray dogs may be seized by the dog warden and the Gardai and brought to the local dog pound. These dogs may be put down or disposed of if their owners do not claim them within 5 days.

Many local authorities have introduced bye-laws to indicate areas where dogs must be kept on a leash at certain times. Your local authority will be able to inform you of the bye-laws that apply in your area. So whether OP was allowed to have his dog off the leash, i dont know. That late at night though, i'm pretty sure he was.

You are liable for injury or damage caused by your dog to people or livestock.



So they were both in the wrong. They were both responsible. CASE CLOSED.

ODD-JOB

Zulu wrote: »

...which is why the dog shouldn't have been off the lead.
Simple as.

In which case no dog should ever be off their lead for the rest of their entire lives,....... because if you truely know your dog , then you truly acknowledge that they can randomly act in an unpredictable manner.

How many times have you heard of owners being attacked by their dogs , totally out of charachter ???????

arybvtcw0eolkf

lightening wrote: »

Dead right... Dog's fight. Kids fall. Bikes get punctures.... I could go on. The outrage here is a joke.

Kinda thinking the same way myself, since my high horse ran away

.

lightening

OP, you asked did anyone have a similar situation. I did. I was walking my dog without a lead and two dogs attacked him, the owner apologised and offered to pay, I said no worries, sheet happens, took the dog to the vet and got him sorted. No hysterics, no moralistic lectures.

My dogs have been in various scraps over the years, most of the time the dogs sort it out themselves without major injuries.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it and I wouldn't take much heed to the "wont someone think of the trildren?" brigade.

Zulu

ODD-JOB wrote: »

In which case no dog should ever be off their lead for the rest of their entire lives,.....

Do you believe that dogs live their entire lives in public?? ...or do you just like wildly exagurating in the hope that someone believes it strenghtens your point?