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Is it possible to be born-again, then dead-again then born-again?

  • 13-08-2009 02:10PM
    #1
    Hotspace
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45 ✭


    I asked this as an aside in another post.

    I can think of three competing and contradictory passages/areas of the bible that could answer this.

    1. The parable of the prodigal son.
    This is the obvious one to opt for and seems to realise that one can be lost from Christ and be found in Christ many times over.
    2. The son of man can’t be crucified twice.
    I wish I could find the passage but I remember reading in one of the letters that Jesus can’t be crucified twice and therefore if you fall away from Christ you can’t go back to him because he can only be crucified once.
    3. Sinning against the Holy-Spirit can never be forgiven.
    This is written at odd places throughout the New Testament.


Comments

  • #2
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Hotspace wrote: »
    I asked this as an aside in another post.
    Arminians will say Yes. Calvinists will say No. They've been arguing about it for over 300 years, and smarter people than me haven't been able to sort it out, so I doubt if anything I say will make any difference.
    1. The parable of the prodigal son.
    This is the obvious one to opt for and seems to realise that one can be lost from Christ and be found in Christ many times over.
    Actually I don't think it is obvious, and I don't think it makes that point at all.

    Parables generally teach one or two main points, they are not allegories where every detail holds a hidden meaning.

    The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches that a loving Father receives us when we repent of our rebellion against him.
    2. The son of man can’t be crucified twice.
    I wish I could find the passage but I remember reading in one of the letters that Jesus can’t be crucified twice and therefore if you fall away from Christ you can’t go back to him because he can only be crucified once.
    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6)
    3. Sinning against the Holy-Spirit can never be forgiven.
    This is written at odd places throughout the New Testament.
    Blasphemy against the Spirit. That is ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan - not something that I think converts to atheism are prone to do.


  • #3
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Hotspace wrote: »
    I asked this as an aside in another post.

    I can think of three competing and contradictory passages/areas of the bible that could answer this.

    1. The parable of the prodigal son.
    This is the obvious one to opt for and seems to realise that one can be lost from Christ and be found in Christ many times over.
    2. The son of man can’t be crucified twice.
    I wish I could find the passage but I remember reading in one of the letters that Jesus can’t be crucified twice and therefore if you fall away from Christ you can’t go back to him because he can only be crucified once.
    3. Sinning against the Holy-Spirit can never be forgiven.
    This is written at odd places throughout the New Testament.

    To my knowledge no. You can't be born again, then be dead and born again. You can be born, and then born again in spirit. To die after been born again is to sin against the spirit which is the unforgivable sin.

    The prodigal son was not about being born again. It is about those who go off into the world and look to squander their inheritence in this life. Going after their own desires, and the pleasures of the flesh. The moral of this illustration is to say, that those lost sheep can come back and be reconciled with The Father and for those who never left The Father, they should rejoice and not bitter, as their brother has been restored to them. It has slight resemblence to the illustration of the workers of the field.


  • #4
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    PDN wrote: »
    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6)


    Blasphemy against the Spirit. That is ascribing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan - not something that I think converts to atheism are prone to do.


    IMO, sinning against the spirit is explained in the first part of your post here. i.e. the quote from hebrews. It is showing us that those who are truly born again, cannot be saved if they fall away. In order to sin against the spirit, one must know and have the spirit.

    I personally would be unsure that ascribing the works of the spirit to satan is sinning against the spirit, unless of course, you know the spirit when you say it. Or is there something I may be missing?


  • #5
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    It's a question that has crossed my mind recently enough. On one had I don't see the problem with those who come back into the fold. Indeed, I can think of some examples (though maybe it isn't true to claim that there were ever really commited in the first place) and I would consider them to be as Christian as myself. But I would be quite stunned to hear about anyone who genuinely did a hop, skip and a leap in terms of their faith. I guess it is like suggesting you have falling in love, out of love and back in love with the same person. At some point you would have to ask how many times this will happen and is the person mistaking love for something else.

    I remember encountering a preposterous website that made the claim that there are no famous former atheists. To a degree, though, it seems plausible to suggest that once something is lost it is unlikely to be found again. I guess that many western atheists were brought up in some sort of religious tradition therefore it seems inevitable that there will be a high number of "apostates".
    PDN wrote: »
    "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

    It is a curious passage. Given that we could probably list many person who rejected their religious upbringing and adopted atheism only later to reject it, I wonder how it is to be read by them? It is difficult to think of the the convoluted "here, there and back again" variety mentioned in the title, though. AN Wilson is about the only name that currenty springs to mind and even then it seems a push to say that he was a convinced believer in the beginning.


  • #6
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »

    It is a curious passage. Given that we could probably list many person who rejected their religious upbringing and adopted atheism only later to reject it, I wonder how it is to be read by them? It is difficult to think of the the convoluted "here, there and back again" variety mentioned in the title, though. AN Wilson is about the only name that currenty springs to mind and even then it seems a push to say that he was a convinced believer in the beginning.

    The thing is, being born again, is not the same as being a believer. The way I read it, you can believe, then not believe, then believe again as much as you want. Its when one is actually born again in the spirit that is up for discussion. Its not can you 'be a believer, then a non-believer, and back again.' For example, I am a believer, but I am not born again.


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  • #7
    angel6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30 ✭angel6


    Why do some churches insist on taking a baptism again to become a member even if the person's already been baptised? Isn't this wrong?


  • #8
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭homer911


    angel6 wrote: »
    Why do some churches insist on taking a baptism again to become a member even if the person's already been baptised? Isn't this wrong?

    Perhaps you should open a new thread rather than take this one off on a tangent.

    In response though, I dont know any church that would insist on this, unless you are comparing a child baptism with an adult baptism?


  • #9
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Its not can you 'be a believer, then a non-believer, and back again.' For example, I am a believer, but I am not born again.

    Humm... could you expand on this with respect to the position you are in? Or maybe the position you ideally wish to be in? I'm a little confused.


  • #10
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Humm... could you expand on this with respect to the position you are in? Or maybe the position you ideally wish to be in? I'm a little confused.

    I believe I 'should' be born again, but I'm not. I 'am' a believer, but I have not been born again 'yet'. You know what I mean?


  • #11
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I believe I 'should' be born again, but I'm not. I 'am' a believer, but I have not been born again 'yet'. You know what I mean?
    Not really... How do you that?
    But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    (Joh 1:12-13)


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  • #12
    JimiTime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    santing wrote: »
    Not really... How do you that?


    So if lets say, that I wholeheartedly believe the articles of faith of the apostles creed, then I'm born again in spirit? I personally don't think so. I believe that the truly born again are filled with the spirit, like at Pentecost. I also believe that the spirit will manifest itself in one or more gifts of spirit as described by Paul. I don't believe in an ambiguous spirit filling. A 'I just had this feeling of peace' etc. The spirit, biblically, was never vague. I also think the spirits lack of ambiguity protects us from false teachers and prophets. We are told of both the fruits and the gifts of the Spirit. We are also told to 'test the spirits' in order to make sure of its source.

    Were the apostles Born again before pentecost? Genuine question.

    To clarify, this is my current stance, and by no means certain. Its where my reasoning has lead me thus far.


  • #13
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    JimiTime,
    Would you say you are a Child of God? Does the Spirit produce fruit in your life? If I have counted well, Paul lists a total of 27 "manifestations" of the Holy Spirit - and since Paul has a different list every time he gives one, I think there are even more ways in which the Holy Spirt can work in our life! So don't get hung up over a limited set, but acknowledge that He is at work!
    You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
    (Rom 8:9-11)
    JimiTime wrote: »
    Were the apostles Born again before pentecost? Genuine question.
    From how I read John 3, being "born again" was something Nicodemus should have known, but he wasn't. I would say that Peter definitely was born again (matthew 16) before Pentecost.


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