NAMA

dubbeat

Does anybody know if there's an anti NAMA pro Nationalization march being planned.

If there isn't one there should be. I'd predict a gigantic turnout.

Yixian

Why nationalise these banks? Let them die, they need to pay the price for dodgy business.

Slash and burn is the best way to deal with the naughtiest of these banks and builders, only the most important need be saved, and that's better off through NAMA to be honest. Let new, ethical banks emerge and fill their places.

NAMA isn't that bad an idea, it's just a costly one and it's too pervasive, saving far too many of the slimeballs than is necessary.

Britain is saving every one of them and paying the price.

Fat_Fingers

I would tend to agree, let them go up the wall. Save one bank... maybe BoI but AIB deserves to go up the wall big time, its well overdue. AIB "management" has shown nothing but incompetence and greed on monumental scale since 1979. They are nothing but FF bank.

dubbeat

Good point about letting them die.
In fact I would like to see the death of banks all together for various reasons. Interest being theft being one of them.

The reason I was more for nationalization rather than NAMA is because if Irish citizens are paying for the banks with the tax they pay it makes sense that they should own them.

If it was a peoples bank there might be more chance of it being ethical and serve as a public service instead of the modern day aristocracy that it is.

I'd be very sad and disappointed if there was no demonstration or march.
Maybe things will have to get a lot worse before people get off their arse's and demand a change.

Capitalism is silly

astrofool

So the interest they pay you is stealing from a bank?

The public service is bad enough, without giving them a bank. Are the public service ethical?

Nate--IRL--

No need to let them fold (with all the associated problems that would have), let the Bank Bondholders take the hit. Convert all bank bonds into Nama bonds, and viola problem mostly solved.

The question is why are bondholders so protected?

Nate

dubbeat

Actually no they're not a single bit ethical.

They exclude poor people from health care and education for one thing.
And social welfare is just an empty gesture.

I guess I was speaking in idealistic terms of what they are "supposed" to be.


These things will never change unless people aggressively stand up and demand they are changed though the voice of things like demonstrations/marches and civil disobedience.

dubbeat

Or I guess you can just blame manbear recession pig :rolleyes:

Yixian

dubbeat wrote: »

Good point about letting them die.
In fact I would like to see the death of banks all together for various reasons. Interest being theft being one of them.

The reason I was more for nationalization rather than NAMA is because if Irish citizens are paying for the banks with the tax they pay it makes sense that they should own them.

If it was a peoples bank there might be more chance of it being ethical and serve as a public service instead of the modern day aristocracy that it is.

I'd be very sad and disappointed if there was no demonstration or march.
Maybe things will have to get a lot worse before people get off their arse's and demand a change.

Capitalism is silly

The nationalisation of banks is the one kind of nationalisation that doesn't result in better service for the public. Look at Britain, it's been nationalising banks out of collapse for decades and every time they go back to their bad loans and dodgy dealings.

No capitalist government really wants to reign in these assholes, largely because half of them sit on the board of directors.

djpbarry

dubbeat wrote: »

They exclude poor people from health care and education for one thing.
And social welfare is just an empty gesture.

I'm sorry, what? This is Ireland we're talking about, right?

dubbeat

yep I'm definitely talking about Ireland

djpbarry

dubbeat wrote: »

yep I'm definitely talking about Ireland

So how exactly are "poor people" in this country excluded from education and health care? And how much does welfare have to be increased by before it becomes more than just a "gesture"?

dubbeat

Well I know a lot of people who don't go to the doctor or the dentist because of how expensive it is.

I also know some people who on occasion have not gone to the E.R because they knew that they would not be able to afford to pay the fee.

The poor are being excluded from education at a higher level because Fatt O'Keefe in his infinite wisdom is reintroducing fees.

The bottom line is

Healthcare SHOULD be free for everybody.
Education SHOULD be free for everybody.

If these things are not feasible in our current economic / political system then both should be debated and changed.

About the social welfare.

I don't think you can just say "increase from this amount to that amount".

Thats the problem. Currently It's not about the "welfare" of a person.
Its about being seen as caring and altruistic.

They give unemployed people "just enough" to almost afford accommodation and give them "just enough" to barely afford to eat well after jumping through undignified hoops to get the help in the first place.

How about

"How much is you rent? O.k we'll take care of that for you" .

"Here's enough money to eat as well as I do every day".

"I know you don't want to be unemployed so choose any degree course you like and In a few years down the road you will be able to help yourself"

(Rent is theft by the way. & Private property In terms of one person owning 10 homes and exploiting the labor of others is wrong)

Diarmuid

dubbeat wrote: »

Healthcare SHOULD be free for everybody.
Education SHOULD be free for everybody.

Let's get one thing straight. Education and healthcare can and never will be FREE. I don't see doctors and nurses and teachers working for nothing. Do you?

So what you are really saying is :

Some people should pay for the healthcare of others
Some people should pay for the education of others

And if you really think that social welfare is just a token gesture, then why not get rid of it. That token gestures is costing the Irish government €20bn/year

dubbeat wrote: »

How about

"How much is you rent? O.k we'll take care of that for you" .

"Here's enough money to eat as well as I do every day".

Great idea. We should all try that.

dubbeat

It's free in other countries.

Yep, the more well off should pay for the education and health care of others via taxes. I don't know about you but that how I want my taxes spent.

The fact that 20bn a year is being spent and that its not enough goes to show that the world economic order and the value of money set by international banks is completely warped.

yupsham

Health Care and Education should be equally accessible to all people of this country.

Refer to Article 21 of the declaration of human rights...

Education is not free neither is Health Care, but Ireland as a nation has chosen to provide these services too EVERYONE and fund it through taxation.

Personally I think this is a good thing, I do feel sometimes however that taxpayers are neglected in terms of provision of services but no system is perfect and the basic premise is excellent. Education for all and Health Care for all....

I don't entertain this social welfare being a great life and standard of living argument. These are arguments are clearly coming from someone who has never experienced any form of poverty or felt the clasp of the breadline...to this I say "Go grow a heart, feel some empathy"

AARRRGH

Can anyone else sense the media/political pressure building up to scrap NAMA?

dubbeat

I think its the general vibe among Irish people.

They don't want it.

Diarmuid

dubbeat wrote: »

It's free in other countries.

IT'S NOT FREE!

Duiske

dubbeat wrote: »

The bottom line is

Healthcare SHOULD be free for everybody.
Education SHOULD be free for everybody.



How about

"How much is you rent? O.k we'll take care of that for you" .

"Here's enough money to eat as well as I do every day".

"I know you don't want to be unemployed so choose any degree course you like and In a few years down the road you will be able to help yourself"

So, Free rent, Free healthcare, Free Education, Free Food. Who exactly is going to pay for all this free stuff ??

dubbeat

Diarmuid wrote: »

IT'S NOT FREE!

How bout Cuba ?

Denmark?
Sweden?
Finland?
Germany?

dubbeat

Duiske wrote: »

So, Free rent, Free healthcare, Free Education, Free Food. Who exactly is going to pay for all this free stuff ??

It can be paid for with the taxes we pay.

Thats the point of taxes.

Diarmuid

yupsham wrote: »

Health Care and Education should be equally accessible to all people of this country.

Refer to Article 21 of the declaration of human rights...

Education is not free neither is Health Care, but Ireland as a nation has chosen to provide these services too EVERYONE and fund it through taxation.

I wouldn't argue with anything in your post but I feel that people are under the impressing that the government has some money tree where they pay for all these services. I think when people understand that for many people, pretty much any work done after 3pm(or earlier) goes to the government, then they will demand more of the government for their money

When you see stories like the Harte family one (I do understand that it's being used by certain sections of the media but ultimately the figures don't lie) it's hard not to feel like one is being screwed.

Diarmuid

dubbeat wrote: »

How bout Cuba ?

Denmark?
Sweden?
Finland?
Germany?

It's not free there either

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. If you don't understand my point from my previous post, nothing else I can say will get through to you

dubbeat

Diarmuid wrote: »

It's not free there either

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. If you don't understand my point from my previous post, nothing else I can say will get through to you

Do you mean its technically not free because the doctors and teachers need to get paid? If not I'd like to know what ya meant?

If so, what I meant was that instead of individuals paying for doctors visits and higher education that it could be paid for by the government via taxation.

Thats the type of country I'd like to live in anyway

Zulu

dubbeat wrote: »

Thats the type of country I'd like to live in anyway

No doubt. So would I. I wouldn't have to work a day, and could get everything handed to my lazy ass. Unfortunatly we all live in the real world, and there us a cost to lifestyle. Things aren't free - no matter how much we'd like them to be.

dubbeat

Zulu wrote: »

No doubt. So would I. I wouldn't have to work a day, and could get everything handed to my lazy ass. Unfortunatly we all live in the real world, and there us a cost to lifestyle. Things aren't free - no matter how much we'd like them to be.

I'm not Lazy.
I'm lucky enough to have a job.

I guess ultimately all I'm saying is that I'd like the money I pay in taxes better managed and I'd like it to be used to fund free health care and education.
I think these two things are vital to the pursuit of an equal and fair society.

People are imaginative and resourceful creatures. If we really wanted it we would find a way to achieve it. Nothing is impossible.

Tech3

Guys over on the propertypin are suggesting a protest against NAMA.

I dont think the general public realize how much of a financial burden this is going to be put on taxpayers to bail out the banks/developers.

When is the date this is being put forward for approval in the Dáil?

dubbeat

tech2 wrote: »

Guys over on the propertypin are suggesting a protest against NAMA.

I dont think the general public realize how much of a financial burden this is going to be put on taxpayers to bail out the banks/developers.

When is the date this is being put forward for approval in the Dáil?

Whats the propertypin?

I think there should have been a protest already.

djpbarry

dubbeat wrote: »

I guess ultimately all I'm saying is that I'd like the money I pay in taxes better managed and I'd like it to be used to fund free health care and education.

We don't pay nearly enough in taxes to fund 'free' health and education. Hell, we're not paying nearly enough in tax to fund the existing system, never mind a more comprehensive one.

ArmaniJeanss

dubbeat wrote: »

Whats the propertypin?

I think there should have been a protest already.

http://www.thepropertypin.com/
A discussion board which was warning about the bubble back from way before Bertie was still saying 'Theres never been a better time to buy a house'.


They share your anti-NAMA stance, though I suspect your 'everything for free with no idea how to pay for it' politics won't go down as well.

Stark

No-one would want to work if everything was free and paid for by taxes. There'd be no motivation to work towards higher paying jobs either as you'd just pay more tax and receive the same reward as someone on minimum wage paying no tax. The current system is screwed up as it is with people getting free accommodation and healthcare if they don't work and having to pay for it if they do.

First move is to email/write to all TDs
http://www.politics.ie/economy/93742-email-your-td-nama-feedback.html

^^^

Second there will be a protest which is being organised here:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=233861925262

Nody

djpbarry wrote: »

We don't pay nearly enough in taxes to fund 'free' health and education. Hell, we're not paying nearly enough in tax to fund the existing system, never mind a more comprehensive one.

It is not that far away; but you'd need someone with brass balls the size of New Zeeland to make it work and run down the unions, costs and ineffiencies and keep the system working.

Yixian

Stark wrote: »

No-one would want to work if everything was free and paid for by taxes.

Jesus.. it's like looking back in time at late 70's Britain.


Here's a novel idea for you, maybe life isn't solely about the pursuit of wealth and maybe there's reward in labour, being part of and supporting a nation.

Zulu

Yixian wrote: »

Jesus.. it's like looking back in time at late 70's Britain.


Here's a novel idea for you, maybe life isn't solely about the pursuit of wealth and maybe there's reward in labour, being part of and supporting a nation.

Yea, you work for a pat on the back. See how much food that fits into you fridge.
Me? My time is worth money though, I'll trade it for wealth.

andrew

Awh man, I got my hopes up there for a sec. Yay, someone else agrees NAMA should be scrapped in favour of nationalisation...oh...they're...they're some sort of commie :P