Hypothetical clamping question

alias no.9

There's a few clamping threads going on but they're messy and meandering so I'm starting a new one specifically to address two point. Please stay on topic, these are hypothetical points on which I'd like your opinions, no need for rants.

First point...

On private property, if there is a sign up, they can clamp your car and therefore detain it until you pay the fine. This is ok because you have been made aware of the potential consequences of parking there, apparently.
What now if you had a sign on your window stating that any clamps will be removed? If they are also aware of the consequences of their actions before they place the clamp, surely this is also ok?
In many places, there are signs stating that bicycles left chained to railings will be removed, surely this would be no different, you break the lock and remove the offending item.
You could take it a step further and state that the clamp will be detained until they pay a release fee, no different than their business model.

Second point...

Clampers make their money from declamping cars. If someone were to enter the business of declamping should they receive legal protection under competition law? Take NCPS, they are a dominant player in that market. If they were to take any action against another operator removing their clamps, surely that would be anti-competitive and an abuse of a dominant market position?

Paulw

alias no.9 wrote: »

There's a few clamping threads going on but they're messy and meandering so I'm starting a new one specifically to address two point. Please stay on topic, these are hypothetical points on which I'd like your opinions, no need for rants.

First point...

On private property, if there is a sign up, they can clamp your car and therefore detain it until you pay the fine. This is ok because you have been made aware of the potential consequences of parking there, apparently.
What now if you had a sign on your window stating that any clamps will be removed? If they are also aware of the consequences of their actions before they place the clamp, surely this is also ok?
In many places, there are signs stating that bicycles left chained to railings will be removed, surely this would be no different, you break the lock and remove the offending item.
You could take it a step further and state that the clamp will be detained until they pay a release fee, no different than their business model.

Second point...

Clampers make their money from declamping cars. If someone were to enter the business of declamping should they receive legal protection under competition law? Take NCPS, they are a dominant player in that market. If they were to take any action against another operator removing their clamps, surely that would be anti-competitive and an abuse of a dominant market position?

In my opinion -

First point ....

By parking in a private property you agree (by parking there) to abide by their conditions (such as marked with signs). Your sign in your car would not change that. Also, if you damage the clamp/lock when removing it, you can be charged with criminal damage. You taking the clamp away would then be considered theft.

Second point ....

There are a good number of companies clamping in the country.
Anyone can remove a clamp, but if you damage the clamp/lock in any way, then that is considered criminal damage. Also, taking the clamp would be theft. Both are criminal acts.

Same points over and over.

By parking on private property, you agree to abide by the conditions (as normally marked on the signs).

Drummerboy08

AFAIK, nobody can detain your property, whilst it itself is on private property. I think.

Thanks why people get away with taking the clamp off themselves. Sign or no sign, the clamp is illegal. Again, i think.

Eoin

I think this is going to go the same way as the Phoenix Park PowerRangers thread. The legal forum is really the best place to get the finer legal points.

Paulw

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

AFAIK, nobody can detain your property, whilst it itself is on private property. I think.

Thanks why people get away with taking the clamp off themselves. Sign or no sign, the clamp is illegal. Again, i think.

If that was the case, the Gardai would be arresting the clampers very frequently. Clapming on private property has never been proven to be illegal.

The reason people get away with removing the clamp is that it is not cost effective for the clampers to take legal action. But, they would still have grounds for taking it, if they wished to.

alias no.9

Paulw wrote: »

If that was the case, the Gardai would be arresting the clampers very frequently. Clapming on private property has never been proven to be illegal.

The reason people get away with removing the clamp is that it is not cost effective for the clampers to take legal action. But, they would still have grounds for taking it, if they wished to.

You say clamping on private property has never been proven to be illegal and go on to state the only reason people get away with removing clamps is that it is not cost effective.
Conversely, could it simply not be cost effective to take legal action against someone who is detaining your property and demanding money?
Is there any legal precedent to show that removing a clamp which is detaining your property is in fact illegal?

ART6

alias no.9 wrote: »

First point...

On private property, if there is a sign up, they can clamp your car and therefore detain it until you pay the fine. This is ok because you have been made aware of the potential consequences of parking there, apparently.
What now if you had a sign on your window stating that any clamps will be removed? If they are also aware of the consequences of their actions before they place the clamp, surely this is also ok?

I would think it would be much the same as putting a note through someone's letter box saying you intend to rob their house. It wouldn't make doing so legal and in the case you suggest it wouldn't make it any less deliberate damage to their property.

alias no.9 wrote: »

In many places, there are signs stating that bicycles left chained to railings will be removed, surely this would be no different, you break the lock and remove the offending item.
You could take it a step further and state that the clamp will be detained until they pay a release fee, no different than their business model.

Again, not the same thing. If someone leaves something on someone's property without permission then they are trespassing and I'd imagine the property owner would have every right to remove it. However, if you remove the clamp on the property of the owner, where you are trespassing, then I assume that would again be malicious damage.

alias no.9 wrote: »

Second point...

Clampers make their money from declamping cars. If someone were to enter the business of declamping should they receive legal protection under competition law? Take NCPS, they are a dominant player in that market. If they were to take any action against another operator removing their clamps, surely that would be anti-competitive and an abuse of a dominant market position?

How can their actions in the situation you suggest be anti-competitive? If they own the property or are contracted by whoever does own it, then you would be trespassing, not competing?

Good idea though. Be interesting to hear what legal eagles view of your post would be.:D

Eoin

Thread moved to legal discussion forum, hope that's OK mods.

gofaster_s13

I removed a clamp from my van in an apartment complex in Terenure and handed it back to the clampers, they said nothing about it and I never heard any more about it:D