Advice on military tatics books.

Brabazone

I'm looking for a military tactics book that could be applied to airsoft. Something along the lines of special ops that only applies to small groups of soldiers.

Some of the guys on the airsoft teams might have a book they use as their bible, if you do just post the name and where you got it here. Also it there are another books that ye think might be useful let me know.

Firekitten

To be honest, there is a lot of militery tactics that applies to airsoft, AND a lot that is utterly irelevant. There are a plethora of 'SAS' books around that offer small squad tactics, but specifics I cant quite advise on... All I can say is take it with a pinch of salt whatever you choose... We have a similar issue with books on sniping with our sub 'genre?' of airsoft...

ASI Casper

I'm nearly sure I once read about a tactics book specifically for airsoft. Basically all the real world tactics that work, applied to airsoft. But for the life of me, I can't remember what it was called, who wrote it, or where I seen it.

Using the advance search pages on Amazon or Arnies or ASCUK might yield a result.

Firekitten

That would be an interesting read Casper... I'd love to know if you find it. Such an Item would be gold....

Lemming

Paintball & Airsoft Battle Tactics perhaps?



It's an interesting read - I picked one up after reading Jinko's copy last year in Sweden.

Rhinocharge

Paintball and Airsoft Battle Tactics by
Christopher E Larsen

Damn you Lemming you got there first.

Rhinocharge

There's also:

Force-On-Force Police Training Using Airsoft: A Manual for the Law Enforcement Trainer on the Use of Airsoft Non-lethal Technology - Luis E Martinez MEd

An interesting read, they actually explain which airsoft models they use for training purposes & why.

Both available at: Play.com

Brabazone

Thanks a million lads, found all those on amazon after your advice. Will be ordering tomorrow when I get paid. There's a few more nice ones there too when you google them. If I have the time when I have read them I might give a short review on just to let ye know how good they are.

TheDoc

Read a book about Alexander the Great on holidays and its amazing how the things done back in those ancient times still ring true today, and some of the things that even ring true in airsoft.

The most important thing I took from it was that of a leader or commander...Alexander of Macadonia always led from the front, he was the first man in the lines, and would be the first to die, and could sport his wounds along with his men after battles.

He felt that to lead anyman, you should show your desire to not be a superior, but be an equal, and instead of keeping yourself out of harms way, get your self in it more to inspire your men. For the grunt will follow without question the man who has bled beside him, and who charges alongside him.

Rings very true for me, and its a style I've done from the get go, I've got respect for commanders who are in the **** with me, not much for those who stand abck and ive never seen fire a rifle.

mcgovern

I haven't checked Amazon, but book depository is usually cheaper and free shipping, and that can be the real killer on amazon.

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780760330630/Paintball-and-Airsoft-Battle-Tactics

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9781432726843/Force-On-Force-Police-Training-Using-Airsoft

A bit cheaper than play.com too.

OzCam

Larsen's

Lemming wrote: »

Paintball & Airsoft Battle Tactics perhaps?

is basically a re-write of his first book, "Light Infantry Tactics For Small Teams" 2005. It's ok for beginners to small unit movements. The customer reviews on Amazon will give you a very good idea of what to expect.

Unfortunately, for me anyway, the proofreading and editing is shockingly bad - it's littered with bad (even by American standards) grammar, misspellings and homophones. It's so bad in fact that I could only read it a few pages at a time. Your mileage may vary. You may also have to refer constantly to the glossary, as I did, due to the number of TLAs scattered around like confetti. Mercifully, it's only 250 pages.

I did learn a few things from it, but not much more than we learned from Ian at Berget. Any Sergeant in the PDF could teach you the same stuff - better - in a long weekend, if that were legal here. Most of the tactics in it are suited to patrols and long (overnight or longer) games, and we have very few sites in Ireland big enough, and no games long enough for them. Also, the tactics are suitable for woodland/rural games, there's nothing in it for urban games or CQB. There are things you could use in Berget, but nothing you could use in Celieni Village or Copehill Down.

Would I buy it again? No.
Have I found anything better for beginners yet? No.
Want something serious to read? Petraeus (yes, that one) & Amos: "Counterinsurgency Field Manual". Awesome.

Firekitten

As to my knowlage and interactions with the man... Ian isnt ex forces... So doubtless a pdf sgt could teach a lot. HOWEVER. Militery tactics on a whole do not directly apply. there are bends in the rules, and how our weapons operate. The difference between the two, I find, Is to play, knowing the real steal way, but dont be afraid to go a little off the cuff at times. If it works... you remember it. To be honest, about 80% of real steel obua doesnt prepare you for it... experience does.

Had a look at that book btw Bernard... you're right, its a bit... heh, well yes... As an Author and a reader, it was a headache!

TheDoc

Firekitten wrote: »

As to my knowlage and interactions with the man... Ian isnt ex forces...

As far as I know he was in the British reserves? I think he said something along those lines at Berget.

Any my original impressions of the man was he was some sort of Sgt Mjr, just think it shows how few bad ass characters we have in irish airsoft.

Still I learned a **** of a lot of him in Berget, I had never even heard of the concept of peeling before I went there.

On reflection, all the stuff I've learned in airsoft, from airsofters, wasn't from anyone really with any military experience.

I think Rogue-Trooper puts it best, Hawk training is a few crates of gargyle and a season of the Unit, I literally learned stuff from that show...

OzCam

As many teams have found out to their cost, there are some real world tactics which have applications in airsoft from time to time, and many that just don't work at all. The trick is to keep the good ones, and drop those which will just get you eliminated faster because of the engagement distances and speed of action. What works at 400m probably doesn't at 40m. And yes, experience will tell which is which.

I think that's one thing Ian has a good handle on, and his expertise is in making a game @£;$%& feel &*$£ realistic. He works really hard at it, and I think he usually succeeds.

Firekitten

He's a nice guy, we had a coffee on the admin building steps... Though he does like to go off too fast though eh?

Masada

Theres no need to be disrespectful to the guy, regardless of experience hes a decent guy and he HAS the ability to motivate people. He respects the players and knows when to drop the character and be a decent airsofter.
Acting superior doesnt make you good when it comes to command, you need to make the team respect you.

Firekitten

Random... As i said... if you read my posts... hes a nice guy... I was just having a quip about his going off prematurely on two occasions... once being game on and the second later... Not his fault, but a joke we shared later... you know... friendly humour Richie? Anyway, havent you only met Ian once? and as an organiser not airsofter huh?

TheDoc

Ian hasnt earned the pleasure to meet god yet

Firekitten

TheDoc wrote: »

Ian hasnt earned the pleasure to meet god yet

Nice to know in a world of change, Doc is constant in his lack of sense.... :rolleyes:

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

Ian hasnt earned the pleasure to meet god yet

Firekitten wrote: »

Nice to know in a world of change, Doc is constant in his lack of sense.... :rolleyes:

Clearly my awesomeness level is so great that Doc is unable to fathom the greatness that is I, Buddy Christ, your one-step communique with God :pac:

Firekitten

No hon... people going 'oh god' when they find out who you are at a skirmish isn't QUITE how they mean it...;)

Lemming

Oooo, third degree ...I haz it :P

Ghostwarrior

Brabazone wrote: »

I'm looking for a military tactics book that could be applied to airsoft. Something along the lines of special ops that only applies to small groups of soldiers.

Some of the guys on the airsoft teams might have a book they use as their bible, if you do just post the name and where you got it here. Also it there are another books that ye think might be useful let me know.

TM 201, Good Luck getting your hands on it

G3-Nut

dont even bother reading books on airsoft tactics mate save yourself the hasstle....you will learn in 2 or 3 good skirmishes the same amount as spending a month reading a book and more...

Its all about experience mate...just get some for youreselves and you will do fine

Brabazone

G3-Nut wrote: »

dont even bother reading books on airsoft tactics mate save yourself the hasstle....you will learn in 2 or 3 good skirmishes the same amount as spending a month reading a book and more...

Its all about experience mate...just get some for youreselves and you will do fine

Have been to a few skirmishes but hurt my neck a few months ago so haven't been out in a while, still recovering. Did my time in the FCA when I was a young lad too, five years to be exact. But like all reserve forces basically all your thought is, how to fire a gun, how to clean a gun and how to walk point and bravely take the first bullet.

Really I'm looking for information on the way proper special operations units work. I want to know how each individual member fits into the team, the role they play in the team and how their skills are used to the best advantage for the rest of the team.

I think its good to know everyone's place including your own and what you have to offer. This way when your are out skirmishing your are a benefit instead of a hindrance to you fellow players.

Probably never happen but maybe the IAA could put something together. A field handbook or something along those lines might be useful. Might bring in a few quid for the cause too.

OzCam

Brabazone wrote: »

Probably never happen but maybe the IAA could put something together. A field handbook or something along those lines might be useful. Might bring in a few quid for the cause too.

There's just one slight problem: you can read whatever book you like, but training in military tactics is illegal unless you're actually in the Defence Forces.

We play games. Some of the tactics are superficially similar, most of them aren't. There have been teams that tried things like Break Contact drills in the early days, and just got themselves slaughtered by gangs of 16-year-olds. It may look the same, and many airsofters try very hard and spend lots of money to make the gear look as real as possible, but it's actually quite different to the real thing when the whistle blows.

I understand how you feel, I had a neck injury years ago, but trying to apply military tactics in an airsoft game is counterproductive. Only about 10% of what you read in Field Manuals is applicable in any way at all. Probably a better bet is to search the US airsoft sites, some of them have tips about what works and what doesn't. Actually, there are some useful tips in the Getting Started section of this website.

Good luck with your search, hope to see you back on the field soon.

Masada

Watch the series of discovery programs called "SAS Special Forces",
Its a show expaining and reenacting scenario's involving the SAS, by former SAS members.
John Mac is in it, i must be good...

OzCam

+1
It's actually better than most of the books out there.

TheDoc

Seriously, watch the unit

It is very hard to get an exact compilation of a team setup, randomly. If its the same guys week in week out, then maybe they will become more efficent, gel and become an effective fighting force, but it takes time.

To grow awareness and each individual having an adaptive nature nutured through experienced in the field. In a skirmish, I I'm always worried about being flanked, cause in a skirmish, I know the flanks are just people who are " there at that particular moment" and will run off or get shot.

In a milsim game, I can focus on mowing down whats in front, realising my team are on my flanks, they will do a good job.

Thats only one small portion.

Some tactics are viable in milsim and not in skirmish, some in real life and not in airsoft. In skirmishes you usually run up against hicaps and boxmags, where an opportunity doesnt present itself to purposefully waste the enemy ammo with decoys, to then bumrush whilst they reload.

Theres actually about 60 examples after shooting through my head and im not writing them.

In short I'd say, there is NO book to help airsoft tactics, and there is very few people that employ tactics at ALL in a skirmish.

You only see tactics in milsim really...

Brabazone

Probably going a little off topic here but I think with the introduction of the new gbb assault rifles, ie WE Scar and M4 that Aegs are on the way out. I think there will be very few people using Aegs in the next five years or so, most will have changed over to GBB ARs which in turn will mean we will be using less bbs due to the nature of GBBs.

This in my opinion will be of great benefit to the game because it will bring about a realism in the game that you could never have with the current selection of Aegs that we use. No more getting hosed with 400 bbs by a Rambo wannabe form Aeg with a ROF of 600 bbs per min. With the gradual introduction of GBBs ARs people will start thinking about tactics and ammo conservation. Players and teams will have to learn to use the ammo they have with restraint and precession. How many of us in all fairness can truthfully say they fear running out of bbs at a skirmish "excluding milsim players of course". I myself am as guilty as the next man but only because the guy across form me is doing the exact same thing.

I am probably on my own in my thinking and maybe none of the above will ever happen but I for one think it would be great for the sport of airsoft.

Am I MAD?:D

Snowie

tactic are easy its one thing to have tactics i always thought the best way was to hold back see whats happening and then get an idea of whats going on.

NakedDex

Everything requires some kind of tactic. For example, my boards.ie tactics involve using punctuation in sentences and, indeed, full sentences.

Anyway, everyone initially thinks real world tactics are all you need to be the newest prodigy to the skirmishing world. Truth is, while some tactics may roughly translate with heavy modification to milsim playing style, general skirmishing does not allow for such detailed and extensive forward planning. A regular skirmish can, however, take some adapted strategies and use them successfully, so long as the leader is confident and capable.
Therefore, what I'd suggest you do is read a couple of books about military style leadership and discover how to lead and inspire fellow players. General skirmishing games rarely have anyone in a team who's willing to take charge and tell people the true vitals like where to go, where to wait and when to move etc.
Remember, a skirmish game rarely last longer than an hour, so you don't have time to think up, flesh out, explain to your team and execute a proper set of tactics. A simple strategy, kept to as few words and as jargon free as possible, will work far more effectively. The thing is to know how to deliver these explanations and how to control the the plan while in action. The KISS method is your friend.

Milsim, as anyone will tell you, is a different animal altogether.

G3-Nut

Brabazone wrote: »

Have been to a few skirmishes but hurt my neck a few months ago so haven't been out in a while, still recovering. Did my time in the FCA when I was a young lad too, five years to be exact. But like all reserve forces basically all your thought is, how to fire a gun, how to clean a gun and how to walk point and bravely take the first bullet.

Really I'm looking for information on the way proper special operations units work. I want to know how each individual member fits into the team, the role they play in the team and how their skills are used to the best advantage for the rest of the team.

I think its good to know everyone's place including your own and what you have to offer. This way when your are out skirmishing your are a benefit instead of a hindrance to you fellow players.

Probably never happen but maybe the IAA could put something together. A field handbook or something along those lines might be useful. Might bring in a few quid for the cause too.

Ouch hope you recover soon bud!!

Well you see thats my point, haven spoken to bucketloads of officers, including my uncle being a chief master seargent, ive learned quite a bit on how special teams work on this side of the pond, and that is that spec ops teams arent just thrown together and made to adapt to eachother, each individual is carefully studied and selected in order to make the unit as efficient as possible.

Now you lads obviously dont have those resources so what i said still applies, get out there, play(when you recover), you will quickly learn that eachothers play style as long as you stick together, that will be your biggest obstacle, because sometimes people will run off trying to get random kills instead of achieve the objective.

Now i played with a few mates and i have to say the radios worked very well( so get radios) apart from us randomly throwing verbal abuse at eachother, we communicated fantastically when spread thin, which enobled us to cover eachother, an example is one of my team mates was upstairs of the double decker in HRTA, we needed to extract a bomb from up there, but the problem was, it takes 2 to carry it, and our other 2 teammates were holding off the left flank about 2 buildings away from me, so instead of rushing i constantly kept radioing to the guy in the bus when people where going in etc, this made the other team start pushing heavier towards the left since they were miserably failing at the right, that gave me the oppurtunity to move in and help extract the bomb...

There were also times where the 4 of us were in 4 seperate buildings yet we covered eachother fantastically becasue of radios.

So the only thing you could learn without playing is fluent communcations, maybe learn some codes since opfor can listen in on your comms. We never bothered learn codes we just spoke with our dirty culchie accents haha sounded like code half the time anyway...

I could read all the books in the world we still wont operate like a spec ops team, can you imagine reading about cleaning the steyr then performing it flawlessly, nope, wont happen....

Learning real tactics and playing airsoft is like learning to play rugby, but joining an american football team.

NakedDex

G3-Nut wrote: »

Learning real tactics and playing airsoft is like learning to play rugby, but joining an american football team.

I can attest to that. Several years of learning playbooks in American football, it's actually more complicated than a military tactics manual (in fact, that's what it basically is).

Smokerkl

Now Im not saying there is no point in it but what is the point(unless its a berget type event) of training and tactics for a regular run of the mill skirmish when like someone said earlier they got slaughtered by a 16 year old?? In airsoft unlike the real world we dont have set rules(Geneva Convention) to run and play by? We simply get told the rules on the day by the marshalls at said sites and off we trot into the bush!! Now Ive been reading military books/history since I was a nipper and Ive spent plenty time doing it but to be fair like I said earlier unless its a proper organised weekend event then in my opinion tactics are just what you and your guys/girls do when having that last fag chatting amongst yourselfs waiting for the whistle!! I like to think every game on a skirmish day is a special forces unit going out and you have to play tactics by learning on the ground!! Sorry for the drone on but hey thats my 2 cents worth anyway!!
S..

Poccington

Brabazone wrote: »

Have been to a few skirmishes but hurt my neck a few months ago so haven't been out in a while, still recovering. Did my time in the FCA when I was a young lad too, five years to be exact. But like all reserve forces basically all your thought is, how to fire a gun, how to clean a gun and how to walk point and bravely take the first bullet.

Really I'm looking for information on the way proper special operations units work. I want to know how each individual member fits into the team, the role they play in the team and how their skills are used to the best advantage for the rest of the team.

That's not all you're thought in the RDF, especially if you were in 5 years.

Unless your team is going to be dealing with proper comms, weapons, demolitions, intel, ops planning and a proper logistics setup it's not gonna translate over to Airsoft, especially if it's an SOF Unit you're trying to work off.

Firekitten

Personally I agree Poccington. If you've been RDF, You'd know a lot more than that, although from what you said, you dont sound infantry.

In terms of airsoft aplicable real tactics, a lot of ex forces airsofters dont know what to apply, or apply nothing for whatever reason. For 90% of game, most of militery experience will count for squat. Small unit battle tactics apply sometimes, but not always. Learning how to use tactics in a certain way isnt the same as being able to apply them, or teach them.

Even these books 'for airsofters', one has to consider where you are. Even for the most realistic airsoft milsim events, not all will apply. Brains, perseverance, a thick skin and a lot of caffine will allow you to find what works and what doesnt. The only true way to find what military tactics work in airsoft, whichever type of game you play, is to TRY them, and work it out yourself. No group is the same, and no one group of airsofters can quite become the same as a group of soldiers trained together. Invariably when the shtf, airsofters fall apart, soldiers fall back on training.

Good luck and all that, but dont expect your own local skirmish site sas....